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 Topic: TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran

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  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #270 - January 18, 2015, 05:57 PM

    Suuurrrree it was.   lol

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #271 - January 18, 2015, 05:58 PM

    Quote from: MRasheed



    SMITE: Trolling, insulting personal comments.

    Another smite results in a ban.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #272 - January 18, 2015, 05:58 PM

    lets say evolution is fake. What conclusion should we draw? Islam is true?
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #273 - January 18, 2015, 06:00 PM

    Aren't you the one, dr, that asked me that same question about 6 pages back...?   Huh?

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #274 - January 18, 2015, 06:03 PM

    no. i asked whether you thought it mattered in relation to islam.
    Now i'm asking whether you think it should matter to us. Because I can tell you that it doesn't to me.

    Attacking evolution doesn't really count as dawah. You won't be accruing your dawah points for this. Islam doesn't become massively more tempting if you debunk evolution.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #275 - January 18, 2015, 06:03 PM

    lets say evolution is fake. What conclusion should we draw? Islam is true?


    Again, I'm not the one that's searching through creation looking for something to replace God with.  I believe God, and accept that the creation (and whatever is in it) functions based on His will as He said. 

    Whether evolution is fake or not only threatens what you hold, not me.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #276 - January 18, 2015, 06:05 PM

    Attacking evolution doesn't really count as dawah.


    TheRationalizer invited me into this battle thread he created.  Attacking evolution isn't why I came here, that was his thing.  When I returned after my hiatus I settled here as it was one of my "rooms."

    Thank y'all for keeping it up for me.   Smiley

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #277 - January 18, 2015, 06:07 PM

    Quote
    Again, I'm not the one that's searching through creation looking for something to replace God with


    and neither am I. So what now?
    Your dawah needs work. i know you think it is all up to allah, and the quality of your dawah doesnt matter too much. But surely you have to be in the right ballpark? Shouldn't you be talking about Islam?

    Quote
    Whether evolution is fake or not only threatens what you hold, not me.


    i agree, but i dont think you realise what you are saying. You are only saying that my view is falsifiable, whereas yours is not.
    If evolution becomes overturned, thats only a threat to the theory of evolution. its not a threat to me. If such a thing ever happens, then i will simply stop believing in evolution. What is so scarey about changing your mind in accordance with the best evidence available at the time? Why would you describe such a thing as a 'threat'? and why is it preferable to have a view that is immune to evidence?

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #278 - January 18, 2015, 06:17 PM

    So?  Join meeee and I will complete your training.  With our combined strength we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy. 

    Don't make me destroy you.  cool2


    You more like Jar Jar Binks:


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #279 - January 18, 2015, 06:34 PM

    Your dawah needs work. i know you think it is all up to allah, and the quality of your dawah doesnt matter too much.


    Actually the Qur'an lists the Top Good Deeds with the highest potency that a believer should do. 

    But surely you have to be in the right ballpark? Shouldn't you be talking about Islam?


    Do I need to talk about Islam to a bunch of former Muslims?  The last time I was here, I was told by some that even these former Muslim atheists were better Muslims than I because they knew Arabic and I didn't and some were Arabs and I wasn't.  Naturally I was taken aback by these glimpses into the core of why they REALLY were atheists.  (and they have the nerve to call ME arrogant.) 

    I do talk about Islam with the heavy hitters, the ones who have a very strong discussion game, and it is with those few that I have the most fun with.  The teens who have the "mock 'em & move on" motto are just to practice my "smite" game on (although the mod just told me to stop).   

    i agree, but i dont think you realise what you saying. You are only saying that my view is falsifiable, whereas yours is not.


    Mine isn't.  Islam is my religion perfected for me by Allah, remember? 
     
    If evolution becomes overturned, thats only a threat to the theory of evolution. its not a threat to me. If such a thing ever happens, then i will simply stop believing in evolution.


    Many atheists see evolution as the coveted replacement for the crutch of the "God superstition," and it is VERY important to them that it be true.  If you aren't one of those, then the bulk of my anti-evolution argument isn't for you. 

    What is so scarey about changing your mind in according with the best evidence available at the time? Why would you describe such a thing as a 'threat'? and why is it preferable to have a view that is immune to evidence?


    There's nothing scary at at all about it when it comes to secular items.  It's actually one of the reasons I enjoy science; I love the new discoveries, etc.  The majesty of the wonders of creation is the signature of its Creator, and a sign to those who believe.

    God is the Truth that all lesser truths radiate from.  Recognizing that fact is how you win at life itself.  But allowing something crazy to spread doubt in you like a cancer until you finally accept that doubt as a substitute for the truth, is how you fail at life, and it IS scary.  For those weak of will, they should avoid anything that may plant/cultivate that seed of doubt so they will not be in danger.   Not everyone is strong enough to entertain certain concepts without it causing them trouble.  In the Qur'an God warns people like that to leave it alone... don't think about that stuff.  For example, like how Quod feels when he thinks about the immaculate conception of the Christ.  Just thinking about it makes him withdraw from the truth of his Lord, and it represents a temptation to his soul... a temptation of doubt that once he's accepting of, will only doom him.  A man has to recognize his personal weaknesses and protect himself from them.  Quod should instead just let it go, not think about stuff that will make his spirit weak, and surrender to his Lord that he may experience mercy.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #280 - January 18, 2015, 06:41 PM

    Quote
    Do I need to talk about Islam to a bunch of former Muslims?  


    u dont 'need' to do anything. It is what I would do, if I thought Islam was obviously true.

    Quote
    Mine isn't [falsifiable].  Islam is my religion perfected for me by Allah, remember?


    it is the third time i heard you say it. My memory is fine. I'm telling you that 'unfalsifiable' is not an attribute of your worldview that you should be boasting about. It means 'unverifiable'.


    Quote
    Not everyone is strong enough to entertain certain concepts without it causing them trouble.


    and are you one of those weaklings?
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #281 - January 18, 2015, 06:51 PM

    u dont 'need' to do anything.


    I'm saying why would I need to proselytize to a bunch of people who already were Muslim?  That was part of the draw of coming in here to trade with you; I didn't have to explain Islam 101 every time I wanted to discus matters of faith, right?

    It is what I would do, if I thought Islam was obviously true.


    I have zero problem talking about Islam with those who are interested in having a "real" discussion.  It's why I refer to them as the "heavy hitters."  They can talk about it with depth, and it is fun.

    it is the third time i heard you say it. My memory is fine. I'm telling you that 'unfalsifiable' is not an attribute of your worldview that you should be boasting about. It means 'unverifiable'.


    Are you supposed to be able to verify a belief system whose activating principle is "faith" by definition, dr_sloth? It sounds like judging it by rules it was never intended to conform to is the chink in your own armor.

    and are you one of those weaklings?


    Hm.  If I was weak in faith, I imagine I would've been afraid to challenge in debate people who were supposed to have studied Islam all of their lives, but found it wanting objectively.   

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #282 - January 18, 2015, 06:55 PM

    Quote
    I'm saying why would I need to proselytize to a bunch of people who already were Muslim?  That was part of the draw of coming in here to trade with you; I didn't have to explain Islam 101 every time I wanted to discus matters of faith, right?


    We all passed Islam 101. It is the 'evidence for islam 101' class that I always failed. i still have idea at all what reason there is to believe that islam is true.

    Quote
    Are you supposed to be able to verify a belief system whose activating principle is "faith,"


    no. i didnt realise you thought it came down to faith. Most muslims i have come across say any clear thinking person should reason their way to Islam through the numerous and obvious 'signs' allah left lying around. They normally say faith is not required.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #283 - January 18, 2015, 07:09 PM

    EVERYBODY WAIT!

    WAIT!!!


    I have a revelation from Allah...


    *farts*

    My mistake


    I knew it. I knew when you started spouting off about haya that you were a prophet.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #284 - January 18, 2015, 07:13 PM

    We all passed Islam 101. It is the 'evidence for islam 101' class that I always failed.


    That's interesting.  "Evidence for Islam" in the way you are expressing it here, doesn't compute to me.  The whole point to our existence is to pass this earthly test and move on to a successful life in the unseen realms.  Faith in that aspect of existence being real is the MOST important part.  What are the FIRST of the two pillars of Islam?  Belief that God is real.   It is AFTER you accept that, and commit to it, that the evidence for it will manifest itself as signs, but that isn't the requirement to accept Islam.  The requirement is to believe, to accept that the Supreme Creator's word is True because He is the Supreme Creator.  Accept it on faith because He knows and you know not!  Did YOU create the universe?  CAN you create a universe?  Then prostrate yourself to Allah, Lord of the worlds!  Glory be to He!  Any "evidence" is a basic appeal to logic.

    i still have idea at all what reason there is to believe that islam is true.

     

    There's two aspects to it: 1.) belief in the unseen and 2.) scholarship into the history of the faiths among men on earth.  The first one you just have to believe and have faith in it.  There is no earthly "evidence" that can be bagged & tagged through the scientific method.  By its nature it is otherworldly.  But the second one can absolutely be used to find a reason to choose one religion over another.  My posts earlier regarding James the Just vs St. Paul is one reason why my own studies demonstrate why I could NEVER choose Christianity over Islam.  The evidence was strong and obvious (and a sign to this here believer). 

    no. i didnt realise you thought it came down to faith. Most muslims i have come across say any clear thinking person should reason their way to Islam through the numerous and obvious 'signs' allah left lying around. They normally say faith is not required.


    I genuinely think it odd that you all have been taught that way.  It sounds for all the world as if someone was deliberately sabotaging your religion. 

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #285 - January 18, 2015, 07:19 PM

    Yes. I was taught the same thing, that there is too much evidence for Islam being the ¨true religion¨, and that one simply has to choose Islam over the ¨on faith¨ faiths because it is the natural state of humans.
    That ¨on faith¨ concept is what I associate with Christianity, and the evangelical side of it, at that.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #286 - January 18, 2015, 07:32 PM

    But Christianity... at its core... did come from Allah.  Accepting that the messenger was who he claimed to be, an anointed representative of the One God, here to instruct the people in scripture and wisdom is a matter of faith needed for all the messengers: Belief in the Prophets.

    First you believe, then you act.  Faith is the activating principle; your actions the proof of that faith.  That's why if you simply surrender and do as He commands, you'll win through to paradise based on the record of your deeds alone even if you didn't have that faith in your heart truly.  God's mercy will be on you because you ACTED like you believed and trusted Him.  Of course your mansion won't be next to the Throne, but you'll still get in.  The lowest level of heaven is better than the coolest level of the realm of torment. 

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #287 - January 18, 2015, 07:42 PM

    Quote
    What are the FIRST of the two pillars of Islam?  Belief that God is real.   It is AFTER you accept that, and commit to it, that the evidence for it will manifest itself as signs, but that isn't the requirement to accept Islam.  


    ok, so you accept that an atheist would have to take a leap of faith to accept Islam. That is not something often conceded.

    Quote
    The requirement is to belief, to accept that the Supreme Creator's word is True because He is the Supreme Creator.  Accept it on faith because he knows and you know not!


    I won’t be accepting it on faith because that is just silly.

    Even if allah is real, that still wouldn’t be a reason to believe everything she says. What if she has good reason to tell you an untruth? Doesn’t she work in mysterious ways?

    Quote
    Did YOU create the universe?  CAN you create a universe?


    But this is just rhetoric isn’t it. You probably think it is brilliant because the quran asks similar questions. You have successfully imitated at least one component of the qurans’ inimitable style, but these questions aren’t anywhere near as profound as you think. Not even when Allah asks them.
    Whether or not I created the universe isn’t a topic I need to ponder on. I have never been under the impression that I created the universe. Nothing I believe rests upon the idea that I created the universe, or my ability to create a fly, or to create myself from nothing/water/a blood clot/clay. I don’t need to be reminded that I do not have magic powers.

    Quote
    The first one you just have to believe and have faith in it.


    I see; more faith.

    Quote
    My posts earlier regarding James the Just vs St. Paul is one reason why my own studies demonstrate why I could NEVER choose Christianity over Islam.


    Attacking evolution doesn’t prove islam, and neither does attacking Christianity. I could give you my own list of reasons why I find Christianity even less plausible than you do. What I’m looking for is a reason to believe that Islam is true. But you have been appealing to faith quite a lot. So maybe you already agree that there isn’t one.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #288 - January 18, 2015, 07:49 PM

    dr_sloth, for every time you said 'silly,' or said that something God said wasn't profound, I found it to be the opposite.  I read my Lord's message and it spoke to me deeply, and left me in awe.

    The reasons to accept Islam for me are because without doubt, the Qur'an is exactly what it claims to be, and Allah, the Supreme Creator doesn't lie.  Allah has our best interests at heart, and wants us to succeed, but left the choice up to us.  It is all a Great Game, that He plays because it pleases Him to do so.  A Game that I intend to win.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #289 - January 18, 2015, 07:51 PM

    "Even if allah is real, that still wouldn’t be a reason to believe everything she says."

    That comes across as the very HEIGHT of arrogance to me.  Like there's a tangible wall made of pure pride that you radiate.  There's nothing I can say to it. 

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #290 - January 18, 2015, 07:52 PM

    Attacking evolution doesn’t prove islam, and neither does attacking Christianity.


    No, Islam holds up all by itself.  I attack those two because they are either pagan, or have aspects of them tainted with paganism.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #291 - January 18, 2015, 07:54 PM

    Quote
    dr_sloth, for every time you said 'silly,' or said that something God said wasn't profound, I found it to be the opposite.  I read my Lord's message and it spoke to me deeply, and left me in awe.


    yeah i know, but in any other circumstance you would agree with me that accepting things on faith is silly. I know you think those rhetorical questions are profound too.  Since you're such a big fan of them, here is another one: Do you think maybe you're easily impressed?
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #292 - January 18, 2015, 08:00 PM

    In the Qur'an God says numerous times that those who believe will recognize things that the disbelievers will miss; that the veil of pride will harden their hearts from truth. 

    Faith is very important; more important than you recognize.  You dismiss it at your peril. 

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #293 - January 18, 2015, 08:01 PM

    "Any other circumstances" are secular, and operate under different rules.  Elementary.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #294 - January 18, 2015, 08:07 PM

    ok, so you accept that an atheist would have to take a leap of faith to accept Islam. That is not something often conceded.


    Everyone has to take the leap of faith to believe in the religions of God.  For some it is easier than it is for others -- just like everything else humans endeavor to do -- but it is important to do it correctly still.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #295 - January 18, 2015, 08:15 PM

    Quote
    "Any other circumstances" are secular, and operate under different rules.  Elementary.


    i'd be surprised if you didn't think accepting christianity on faith was silly. Your distinction is not religious/secular. It is Islam/everything else.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #296 - January 18, 2015, 08:24 PM

    ............ Your distinction is not religious/secular. It is Islam/everything else.

    Let me correct those words of   dr_sloth. What that fellow saying in all his posts is not that but this.,

     "It is Islam or else,  it is wrath hell fire, fear mongering and Insults".. And If he is King Saud of the globe,  it will be public lashing or even execution...

    That is what that  cartoon character saying dr_sloth..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #297 - January 18, 2015, 08:25 PM

    i'd be surprised if you didn't think accepting christianity on faith was silly. Your distinction is not religious/secular. It is Islam/everything else.


    If it wasn't for Paul's interference, a follower of the Christ's original message would still need to recognize the final prophet as who he was. 

    Islam holds up great all by itself, and does a great job of explaining the Greater Message of God throughout history.  I love it. 

    I don't really see the problem, to be honest.  Most of the time you all's stance just comes across as pig-headed and stubborn.  Especially that line about not having faith in God just because He was God.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #298 - January 18, 2015, 08:28 PM

    So I've finally sat down to reply, Mrasheed, and it's already like a novella. You're going to be totally bummed out. Everyone's going to be bummed out. I'm sorry, guys. Just look away. Or prepare to see what might be the longest post I've ever written, which is saying something.

    If there were ever a time to check your watch and make your excuses, Mrasheed, it might be now, before I post this monster.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #299 - January 18, 2015, 08:34 PM

    Quote
    I don't really see the problem, to be honest.

     

    the only problem is a double standard when it comes to accepting things on faith. If that is not a problem for you, then I guess that is where you are going wrong.

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