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 Topic: TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran

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  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #30 - January 15, 2015, 06:37 PM

    I think when MrRasheed says, "a new species", he is thinking about getting a cat out of a dog or something similar. People who don't believe speciation happens usually have a different (read unrealistic/magical) understanding of what speciation is supposed to mean.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #31 - January 15, 2015, 06:46 PM

    I'm still interested in the argument that goes "I can prove God exists because of X". It amuses me that, once "X" is shown to be false they not only persist with their belief, they move on to a different version of "X". How often can a person do that before doubt in their faith sets in? Surely it must?
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #32 - January 15, 2015, 06:50 PM

    I think when MrRasheed says, "a new species", he is thinking about getting a cat out of a dog or something similar. People who don't believe speciation happens usually have a different (read unrealistic/magical) understanding of what speciation is supposed to mean.


    This is due to not paying attention to grade school biology. I do agree that people that are usually against evolution do not understand it to begin with. This misconception fuels their views which end up being non-starters due to the misconception.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #33 - January 15, 2015, 07:04 PM

    I shall respond to the speciation thing later on.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #34 - January 15, 2015, 07:15 PM

    I think when MrRasheed says, "a new species", he is thinking about getting a cat out of a dog or something similar. People who don't believe speciation happens usually have a different (read unrealistic/magical) understanding of what speciation is supposed to mean.


    Possibly so but he wrote...
    "Let the record show that at no point ever has a new species been observed to form from the concept of natural selection.  After millions of fruit fruit breeding, after thousands of years of barnyard artificial selection, a brand new species has never been produced from an previous species.  The whole idea is upheld solely by blind faith in the hopes that one day a fact might emerge to support it in some way.   Your strongest argument is composed of blind faith."
    ... which indicates to me that he does have a reasonable concept of what it means.
    So, if a new species were to be created by say, breeding mice in a laboratory until we had a new species that was no longer a mouse and was able to reproduce, but not with mice. If that happened, would he lose his faith?
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #35 - January 15, 2015, 07:21 PM

    Dogs refuted his views of barnyard artificial selection. Most of his arguments are just ignorance, inability to research beyond confirmation bias and lack of an education in the topic at hand.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #36 - January 15, 2015, 07:43 PM

    Evolution in Action: The Silver Fox Experiment (esp. watch from 6:30)

    http://vimeo.com/76914919
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #37 - January 15, 2015, 08:41 PM

    Normally, comments by spectators take place in the comments thread, but since this one-on-one match is so old, I won't bother splitting comments here to the other thread.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #38 - January 15, 2015, 10:01 PM

    Some people can't think outside of the box. They will never understand that the "pattern/information" they see in nature is a characteristic of their mind or their perception of nature rather than nature itself.


    That's one way of putting it.  Another way is to recognize that researchers from Boston University and Harvard Medical School are the ones who did the tests as I pointed out, and the patterns are actually documented according to Zipf's Law.  Naturally I can only conclude that it was your own rather telling inability to see outside of your little box that prevented you from reading/acknowledging/understanding that. 

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #39 - January 15, 2015, 10:03 PM

    Can you reference your claim please?


    The first part is referenced in Sura 96, while the other part is referenced in Science, vol. 266, November 25, 1994, p. 1320, “’Junk’ throws up precious secret,” BBC News Online Science Staff, May 12, 2004: http://news.bbc.co.uk./2/hi/science/nature/3703935.stm

    The reference is clearly listed at the bottom of my argument.  Curious that you didn't notice it.  I guess that represents the level of scholarship I can expect from you as I catch up on these new posts then?

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #40 - January 15, 2015, 10:05 PM

    I'm Good thanks  Afro  (btw in case you didn't know I am the poster that was formerly known here as Hassan  grin12  ) 


    lol  I wish y'all would stop changing your branding. 

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #41 - January 15, 2015, 10:21 PM

    There's quite a lot of debate among taxonomists as to what actually constitutes a species, as opposed to a sub-species or a variant.


    So if the experts can't come to a fundamental agreement on what even a standard metric is to judge by, then what is this contest about?  Or is that just something you're throwing out there to cover your butt to explain away a potential loss...?

    But do you really believe that all species are of equal age?


    Is that my argument?  I don't ever remember saying that.  That smells suspiciously like a strawman.  The data record demonstrates that major transitions in the biological development of species show the same pattern of sudden emergence of diverse forms at a new level of complexity.  There is actually zero evidence that species slowly evolve into different species... the very concept that evolutionary theory needs to demonstrate in order to be true.  Without the necessary facts to support it, evolutionism is just a faith-based system supported by hopes, dreams & wishing.

    Cycads are little changed since the Jurassic era"


    That's not helping your case.  Biological changes are supposed to be automatic from continuous molecular-level mutations according to the theory.

    ...most other plants have evolved considerably and given birth to new species (plus sub-species and variants).


    According to what?  I thought you said there is no agreement as to what a separate species even is?  According to you any change that might be demonstrated is just in your mind.

    Do you deny the fossil record?


    Do I deny the fossil record doing what?

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #42 - January 15, 2015, 10:23 PM

    Welcome back MRasheed,  Smiley
    We don't have many muslims active on the forum lately so it's good to see you around.


    Thanks, it's good to be back.  I've been super busy lately.  lol Actually I don't even have time for THIS, but I missed wrestling with you meat heads.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #43 - January 15, 2015, 10:26 PM

    Answer me a question because I'm interested in what you're saying. If speciation is observed (ie someone manages to breed animals until they have an undisputed new species), will your belief in god then end? Or will you move on to another argument?


    I don't understand why my belief in God would end.  Why would that be?  It is the atheist community that is desperately looking for something to replace God with by, oddly, digging around in His creation.  lol 

    It was TheRationalizer who challenged me to come to this thread, remember?  That foolishness doesn't belong to me.  Finding an item that may support your pet theory wouldn't disprove the existence of God would it? 

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #44 - January 15, 2015, 10:37 PM

    Speciation has been observed, Dogs are the best example.


    The best example of what now?  Dogs are one species.  A 'breed' is not a separate species.  All the dog breeds are capable of mating with one another and producing fertile offspring.  Your claim that "speciation has been observed" is not a scientific fact, but a demonstration of a true believer bearing witness based on his blind faith.

    Speciation without human interference. It happened with flowers in Washington, called goatsbeard. It happening with Rhagoletis pomonella which started 150 years ago.


    lol Sure.

    Forbidden Archeology is not peer-reviewed nor did the writers submit any of the research. Beside the authors are not even archaeologist. One is a mathematician and the other is a nobody writer. Thus the books is not evidence of anything but wishful thinking and confirmation bias.


    The book is no less than a compilation of numerous scientific anomalies found in nature that do not fit the evolutionary theory model.  The authors did not create them, as seems to be your odd belief, but only compiled into a single published source items that were already observed and documented by scientists in the field, only to be put away with disturbed confusion by those same scientists.

    The point about DNA has no merit since you are fitting a vast amount of science into a tiny verse. Post hoc rationalization only works for the believer and one lacking an education in biology.


    1.) God said it was He who taught mankind that which he knew not.
    2.) Researchers from respected institutions (Boston University and Harvard Medical School no less) have found evidence for there being an actual language structure within our basic building block cells.  Your inability to think outside of your narrow-minded atheist box prevents you from seeing the significance of these two points.


  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #45 - January 15, 2015, 10:42 PM

    I think when MrRasheed says, "a new species", he is thinking about getting a cat out of a dog or something similar. People who don't believe speciation happens usually have a different (read unrealistic/magical) understanding of what speciation is supposed to mean.


    And here I thought I meant that a completely new animal was gradually evolved from a series of different animals over time, where a clear trail of the different transforming species would be left in the fossil record. 

    In reality, people who believe speciation actually happens think like witch doctor pagans, and have a magical view of science at odds with the actual data available.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #46 - January 15, 2015, 10:44 PM

    I don't want to ruin the original debate completely so I won't contribute after this.
    The reason for the question was that you wanted to show me a reason why I should believe in a god. I was wondering whether, if the reason was shown to be false, the result would affect your position. Since it will not, I don't really see the point in the debate.
    I know its a completely pointless exercise but allow me to state my own position on atheism: I don't believe in god.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #47 - January 15, 2015, 10:46 PM

    I'm still interested in the argument that goes "I can prove God exists because of X". It amuses me that, once "X" is shown to be false they not only persist with their belief, they move on to a different version of "X". How often can a person do that before doubt in their faith sets in? Surely it must?


    1.) I never said, "I can prove God exists because of X," as the challenge from TheRationalizer to me was for each of us to demonstrate our "strongest argument."  I picked an argument that personally has me excited about the implications involved, but i understand that the stubborn narrow-mind tends to lack that kind of mental flexibility, such as that which you demonstrate. 

    2.)  I look forward to you showing "X" to be false.  I'm riveted.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #48 - January 15, 2015, 10:49 PM

    to cover your butt to explain away a potential loss...?

    Some of us are not interested in winning the internet.

    I'm a gardener by trade, but don't know enough about plant evolution to argue with with a slippery smartarse who always knows best. Can't be bothered, sorry.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #49 - January 15, 2015, 10:58 PM

    Dogs refuted his views of barnyard artificial selection.


    By doing what exactly?  No longer being dogs?  Because that would be exactly what evolutionary theory needs to support itself.  The absence of such shunts it to the realm of nonsense pagan religion, sucking funds from the world's governments to support its foolishness.

    Most of his arguments are just ignorance...


    Oh?  And do you still believe breeding dogs into yet more dogs demonstrates speciation in action?  Because if so, I would be careful of leveling the charge of 'ignorance' at other people.   Your own paganism version of willful ignorance in the face of clear facts is on a level all of its own.

    ...inability to research beyond confirmation bias and lack of an education in the topic at hand.


    To the contrary, my research has revealed to me exactly what evolution scientist proponents actually hold within their cards, and I now have significantly less respect for the field than I had before.  The stench of hypocrisy is cloying.  You probably shouldn't go around making fun of others for their blind faith when it is precisely what you yourselves operate out of.  At least Al-Islam is SUPPOSED to work on faith, right?  Tsk.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #50 - January 15, 2015, 11:00 PM

    Some of us are not interested in winning the internet.

    I'm a gardener by trade, but don't know enough about plant evolution to argue with with a slippery smartarse who always knows best. Can't be bothered, sorry.


    Bow down to your Guardian Lord who created you, repent of your rejection of Him, and do as He commands so that you may instead win in both this life and in the next.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #51 - January 15, 2015, 11:03 PM

    "Oh, Adam was a gardener, and God who made him sees
    That half a proper gardener's work is done upon his knees,
    So when your work is finished, you can wash your hands and pray
    For the Glory of the Garden that it may not pass away!"
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #52 - January 15, 2015, 11:03 PM

    The reason for the question was that you wanted to show me a reason why I should believe in a god. I was wondering whether, if the reason was shown to be false, the result would affect your position. Since it will not, I don't really see the point in the debate.


    I was challenged to the debate by one of your members, and called myself being a sport by contributing.  It's really no more complex than that, Rob.

    I know its a completely pointless exercise but allow me to state my own position on atheism: I don't believe in god.


    That is kind of the whole point of "atheism."  Thanks, I guess.   lol

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #53 - January 15, 2015, 11:03 PM

    Rudyard Kipling
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #54 - January 15, 2015, 11:07 PM

    Though I suppose Rudyard Kipling's prayers were in vain, as he prayed through Jesus the son of God.

    God only likes it when you do it exactly 'right'.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #55 - January 15, 2015, 11:10 PM

    "Oh, Adam was a gardener, and God who made him sees
    That half a proper gardener's work is done upon his knees,
    So when your work is finished, you can wash your hands and pray
    For the Glory of the Garden that it may not pass away!"


    An early socialist take on the same tale.



    Sorry to derail your thread, Mr Bronson.
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #56 - January 15, 2015, 11:13 PM

    Nice  Afro

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #57 - January 15, 2015, 11:22 PM

    Mrasheed, this might've been covered in your intro thread, but I can't read that thing. That sucker is like 70 pages long if I'm remembering correctly. But I've seen you discussing biology every time I happened across your posts on this forum, so I wondered if you had any scientific background. Did you take any university-level biology classes? Are you in the field? Or is this just something you're interested in?
  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #58 - January 15, 2015, 11:25 PM

    My background is in cartooning, illustration, publishing, animation.  Science and comparative religion are among my personal interests and hobbies.

  • TheRationalizer Vs MRasheed - Facts of evolution Vs Facts of the Quran
     Reply #59 - January 15, 2015, 11:34 PM

    What is your opinion on cartoons of Muhammad? Do you think they should be banned?

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
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