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 Topic: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q

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  • Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     OP - July 03, 2010, 03:29 AM

    I'm from UK London

    Come from a culturally catholic scottish back ground.

    Going to catholic school and an early belief in God, manifested itself negatively in my life as a young child, in the sense that for many years (This is entirely true) visiting the loo for a "number two" was deeply distressing for me, as I always imagined God watching me. I'm aware of the crazy here but there you go.

    It wasn't long before I questioned my way to atheism and the freedom to number 2 in peace. Although my mum made me keep quite about it as she didn't want me getting kicked out of this very good catholic school.

    I never had an interest in Islam, I thought it really was such a complete and utter crazy, fruit cake, weird and totally alien religion, and i couldn't be bothered to understand the first thing about it. As it was so far removed from anything I understood. And I felt it really wasn't my buisness.

    All I thought I knew was that its followers didn't much like women. I watched the movie "not without my daughter" with my mum when i was very young, it wasn't a nice first impression.

    And then one night a couple years or so, ago, I watched a program on the bbc called "jesus in the Qu'ran", And I couldn't believe it. I was so surprised to find that Islam is in the same religious family to christianity. I felt like I had a connection to Islam through the fact that I am culturally christian. Even though I'm not christian, i still felt closer to muslims, it felt like we truelly are one big fucked up family. I felt that Islam was no longer none of my buisness and ever since then I've had an interest in Islam, and I feel i have a right to an opinion on it.

    Anyway, that's me, and I have a question about Islam, and I would prefer asking ex-muslims rather than muslims because I don't want to upset anyone with it.


    Quran 33:52"It is not permitted thee to take other wives hereafter, nor to change thy present wives for other women, though their beauty charm thee, except slaves whom thy right hand shall possess."

    ---------------------------------------

    Tell me if I'm wrong but does this not seem to mean that muslim men can have sex with women outside of muslim marriage as long as they are "slaves"?

    I'm of the knowledge that Muslims can marry Christian and Jewish women as long as they are in a Muslim country. And marrying an atheist women is so wrong that it basically means the muslim has apostated from Islam...

    It seems to me that through this verse a muslim could make a case to marry an atheist via secular means and have everything be just peachy with muslim law and with God.

    ----------------------------------
    On a completely different note:

    This may sound really crazy but I really like the singing Muslims do about allah, but i always feel guilty listening to it and I wondered if there is such a thing as atheist arabic song in the style of Muslims singing to Allah?


    Atheism FTW!

    Michelle


  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #1 - July 03, 2010, 03:47 AM

    Welcome!

    From my understanding, Muslim men are allowed to have sex with slaves without marrying them. Slavery doesn't exist any longer, of course, which goes to show how everlasting the message of the Quran really is.
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #2 - July 03, 2010, 04:16 AM

    Welcome michelle  Smiley. Actually 33:52 only pertains to the prophet. Verses 50-52 talk about who the prophet can and cannot marry and tell him that he can defer a wife's turn (sex) to another night if he wants Roll Eyes.

    The verse that allows Muslim men to marry 4 women is in sura 4 I think.

    Here it is:

    4:3
    PICKTHAL: And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #3 - July 03, 2010, 04:56 AM

    Welcome michelle! I'm not muslim or ex-muslim so pardon me for not answering your question.

    Hope you find the answers to your questions... in the meantime, here's a complimentary CEMB parrot  parrot

  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #4 - July 03, 2010, 08:00 AM

    Welcome michelle  Smiley. Actually 33:52 only pertains to the prophet. Verses 50-52 talk about who the prophet can and cannot marry and tell him that he can defer a wife's turn (sex) to another night if he wants Roll Eyes.

    The verse that allows Muslim men to marry 4 women is in sura 4 I think.

    No 33:52 applies to all (Muslim men).  Yes Muslim males are allowed have as many female slaves as they wish and are allowed have sex with them.  They cannot refuse sex.  That is where the concept of a harem comes from.
    There is a rule that Muslim men are only allowed to have up to 4 wives - except for Mohammed who specifically got a message from allah telling him that he - and he alone - was allowed have as many wives as he wanted.  There would appear to have been 23 women in total that he married/had as slaves.  The status of 11 of those is disputed (whether slave/wife).

    Technically slavery always exists in Sharia - it is merely the fact that the Caliphate hasn't been reestablished that is preventing the reintroduction of slavery.

    A Muslim male is allowed have Christian or Jewish wives - a Muslim female is not allowed a Christian/Jewish husband. This is because it is believed the wife will submit her will to that of her husband - and the children will be brought up Muslim.  It need not be in a "Muslim country" for this to apply - because the religion is the state (i.e. a Muslim should comply with the elements of Sharia that apply to him/her even in a non-Islamic state).
    Technically a Muslim should not marry an atheist because she is not a member of the Ahl-al-Khittab - people of the book, which is what Christians and Jews are called (but only at those times when Mo is polite about them of course).
    A Muslim could not marry via secular means - this would not be recognised as a valid marriage and would therefore mean that he/she was having extra-marital sex. The punishment for this is stoning.
    Other rules surrounding marriage are interesting - e.g. one need not inform a wife that one is getting another wife (or ask her permission).  Also in Shia Islam, one can get married "by the hour" - muta marriage.  This exists in Iran today.  In Sunni Islam there is a similar concept of misyar marriage, though it seems to be rarer.

    Note: I am using the term "Muslim" in a "fully compliant with Sharia" sense.  Because of cultural influences and the strictness of the religion, there are a lot of a la carte Muslims. Nevertheless, it is important to understand the fundamental beliefs of the religion and from there work out what is cultural/a-la-carte. 
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #5 - July 03, 2010, 08:23 AM

    Tell me if I'm wrong but does this not seem to mean that muslim men can have sex with women outside of muslim marriage as long as they are "slaves"?


    Of course it does, and according to the hadith, the prophet did exactly that (whilst he was married)

    Quote
    This may sound really crazy but I really like the singing Muslims do about allah, but i always feel guilty listening to it and I wondered if there is such a thing as atheist arabic song in the style of Muslims singing to Allah?

    are you talking about kawali?  can you post a youtube video to let us know exactly what you mean?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #6 - July 03, 2010, 09:37 AM

    Welcome Michelle! It seems that you've already been given a parrot so I'll give you this rabbit instead.  bunny
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #7 - July 03, 2010, 09:46 AM

    I'm from UK London

     ~ Even though I'm not christian, i still felt closer to muslims, it felt like we truelly are one big fucked up family. I felt that Islam was no longer none of my buisness and ever since then I've had an interest in Islam, and I feel i have a right to an opinion on it.................

     Atheism FTW!

    Michelle




     Huh? Huh? Huh?


    I highly recommend  layman's atheism : I DON'T KNOW[ a la BILL MAHER] AND I DON'T NEED TO



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #8 - July 03, 2010, 10:09 AM

    Welcome  Afro

    Here are some verses you may find interesting:

    Surah 23

    [23:5]
    and guard their private parts

    [23:6]
    save from their wives and what their right hands own then being not blameworthy

    Surah 70

    [70:29]
    and guard their private parts

    [70:30]
    save from their wives and what their right hands own, then not being blameworthy
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #9 - July 03, 2010, 01:02 PM

    Welcome michelle! Smiley

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #10 - July 03, 2010, 03:21 PM

    Welcome Michelle.

    have you read or seen any of the documentaries about jesus in india? I've watched one of them which was quite interesting. It's all a bit conspiracy theory like as we'll never know the truth of his years 12-30. But it makes for an interesting read from a hindu perspective.

    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #11 - July 03, 2010, 04:55 PM

    Welcome to the forum, Michelle.  hugs

    Regrding your question, if you Google 'concubines in Islam', you will find the different opinions regarding the issue, and how Muslims believe they should behave today. Smiley

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #12 - July 03, 2010, 05:08 PM

    Welcome Michele.  Heres a welcome bunny for ya  bunny
    Well in a sense, its is similar in that the Adam and Eve story
    is the same, and kinda the same until Abraham, and then
    islam takes a devient left, and xiantity takes a divient right LOL

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #13 - July 03, 2010, 05:10 PM

    it felt like we truelly are one big fucked up family


    lol. welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy your stay  Smiley

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #14 - July 03, 2010, 07:29 PM

    Welcome Michelle Smiley

    The legalized sex slave stuff always bothered me. A lot. I learned that the reasoning behind why it's allowed is because the "contract" between master and slave is very similar to the contract between master husband and wife. Still sounded like bullshit to me though. I reconciled it by telling myself there must be some wisdom behind it that I didn't understand, and thank god it didn't apply to me.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #15 - July 03, 2010, 07:36 PM

    No 33:52 applies to all (Muslim men).  Yes Muslim males are allowed have as many female slaves as they wish and are allowed have sex with them.  They cannot refuse sex.  That is where the concept of a harem comes from.
    There is a rule that Muslim men are only allowed to have up to 4 wives - except for Mohammed who specifically got a message from allah telling him that he - and he alone - was allowed have as many wives as he wanted.  There would appear to have been 23 women in total that he married/had as slaves.  The status of 11 of those is disputed (whether slave/wife).

    Technically slavery always exists in Sharia - it is merely the fact that the Caliphate hasn't been reestablished that is preventing the reintroduction of slavery.

    A Muslim male is allowed have Christian or Jewish wives - a Muslim female is not allowed a Christian/Jewish husband. This is because it is believed the wife will submit her will to that of her husband - and the children will be brought up Muslim.  It need not be in a "Muslim country" for this to apply - because the religion is the state (i.e. a Muslim should comply with the elements of Sharia that apply to him/her even in a non-Islamic state).
    Technically a Muslim should not marry an atheist because she is not a member of the Ahl-al-Khittab - people of the book, which is what Christians and Jews are called (but only at those times when Mo is polite about them of course).
    A Muslim could not marry via secular means - this would not be recognised as a valid marriage and would therefore mean that he/she was having extra-marital sex. The punishment for this is stoning.
    Other rules surrounding marriage are interesting - e.g. one need not inform a wife that one is getting another wife (or ask her permission).  Also in Shia Islam, one can get married "by the hour" - muta marriage.  This exists in Iran today.  In Sunni Islam there is a similar concept of misyar marriage, though it seems to be rarer.

    Note: I am using the term "Muslim" in a "fully compliant with Sharia" sense.  Because of cultural influences and the strictness of the religion, there are a lot of a la carte Muslims. Nevertheless, it is important to understand the fundamental beliefs of the religion and from there work out what is cultural/a-la-carte. 


    33 52 does not talk about Muslim men, its about the prophet.

    33 50 says that the prophet can marry women who have been paid dowries, women whom his right hand possesses, and cousins.
    33 51 says he can defer any wives' turns
    33 52 says he's allowed no more women after this.

    33:50
    O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    33:51
    You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased, all of them with what you give them, and Allah knows what is in your hearts; and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

    33:52
    It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things.


    What indicates that verse 52 is a general rule for Muslim men?

    It would help if an Arabic speaker could say whether or not the "you" in 33:52 is singular.


    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #16 - July 03, 2010, 07:48 PM

    Ask me what?

    fuck you
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #17 - July 03, 2010, 07:55 PM

    What?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #18 - July 03, 2010, 07:55 PM

    She said she wanted to ask a Q. Well, here I am.

    fuck you
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #19 - July 03, 2010, 07:59 PM

    lol

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #20 - July 03, 2010, 08:50 PM

    What indicates that verse 52 is a general rule for Muslim men?
    It would help if an Arabic speaker could say whether or not the "you" in 33:52 is singular.

    Sorry - you are correct about the verse.  The you in that verse refers to Mo alone - it's the verse that allows him alone to have more than 4 wives.

  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #21 - July 03, 2010, 11:05 PM

    Welcome Michelle, nice to see you here. Interesting to read your post. Smiley Looks like Alecto, hupla, IsLame, Zebedee, Mr X, Jinn and Tonic , ateapotist, Luthiel have all provided some good answers!
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #22 - July 04, 2010, 12:04 AM

    What do you have against me? finmad
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #23 - July 04, 2010, 02:37 AM

     signwelcome hope you enjoy your stay.

    "A good man is so hard to find but a hard man is so good to find"
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #24 - July 04, 2010, 09:05 AM

    What do you have against me? finmad


    So many passionate users who've answered it's easy to miss them!  No offence Abood or to anyone else missed.

    My answer is you'll find a lot of nonsense in the quran & with the ideology. Never try to make sense of it, only try to make sense of the underlying human fallacies that allow it to persist.
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #25 - July 04, 2010, 12:26 PM

    I was kidding. grin12

    And Michelle hasn't posted anything since her first post. Pshhtt.
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #26 - July 04, 2010, 12:43 PM

    Welcome!

    From my understanding, Muslim men are allowed to have sex with slaves without marrying them. Slavery doesn't exist any longer, of course, which goes to show how everlasting the message of the Quran really is.

    I wonder if BDSM counts.
    So maybe Muslim men are allowed to have sex with any woman in such context.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #27 - July 04, 2010, 01:01 PM

     Cheesy
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #28 - July 05, 2010, 05:19 AM

    Hey guys!

    Thanks all for the welcome. I love the  parrot and the bunny

    I found something about the "concubines in Islam" that you mentioned, and it was pretty much what I was looking for. Thank you  

    Seems one could certainly tinker with the definition of "slave", i think one could even call a secular marriage a slave contract and that would be that. As far as I'm concerned, from what i read here:



    Marriage and slavery wasn't all that different back then. When it comes to actual living conditions anyway.

    BDSM, very cool, i never thought of that!!!! dance

    Why I feel I need to know about this stuff? Well that question inparticular was just a bit of fun. Next time I'm trying to seduce a cute, well behaved muslim lad, it should make things easier.

    To be honest I'm not entirely sure about this myself, perhaps I think that religion is an unhealthy mindset, i mean no offense, it's just my opinion, and i'm trying to work out what's going on in peeps heads.

    When people think differently to me, I always find it interesting, perhaps i'm an arrogant bitch but i just don't understand how anyone can follow any kind of thought process to the end and arrive at the idea there is a GOD. I know it's a big part of our evolution, to think this way, but now when we know so much, and know there is so much we don't know... it makes no sense.

    It's not just religious ideas, its others as well, peoples thinking has just always interested me, and while i'm used to christian weirdness, muslim weirdness is totally different even tho both idea's are born of the same pool of rubbish.

    What I have never understood about christianity is, even if it was all true, why would anyone be happy about it? And i find that muslims suffer from this even worse, it's like a desperation to give themselves up for some greater power. WHY? even give their children up to it? Even if it was true, and i believed in God, i wouldn't bend my knee towards it.

    I don't understand this idea that just because I exist I must now choose to exist only to kiss arse or be tortured?

    And also why would another human be pissed off if one chooses not to kiss gods arse? i would have thought its more likely peeps would give god decenters a pat on the back, and "good on ya son" because they happen to have not sold out for an eternity of sex and alcohol in a garden?

    And I'm truelly trying to figure out why people want all this... If religion evolved to be simply deistic i wouldn't have a problem, but this desire to be a slave, i don't get it.

    Also I think the whole burka thing is facsinating, as i believe it is just a symptom of a problem that many women have in this world, it has just manifested itself in this form for muslim chicks...

    Don't get me wrong, I love men, but women really do care far too much about what men think of us... it's either we dress too frumpy or flaunting... whores or fridgid... smart or stupid, respectable, not respectable, I am totally fine with men thinking that way about me because I couldn't care less, this whole thing with needing to be respected by men... feminists are guilty of it too when they moan about women in the sex industry... I want to know why women care if men respect us or not?

    Also what is the psychology behind wanting the men and women around us to have certain unchangeable roles? Which is another fact that i think is affecting why muslims are so adament that they are right.

    It also interests me why muslims are so against any idea of change, like irshad manji says.

    And in all this im interested in the mindset of the muslim that leaves Islam, what has happened to you beautiful few that got you thinking that maybe there is no God.

    And I would also love to understand Converts... What is THAT about? why would a person that has figured out their own flawed religion is a crap heap, then convert to another equally flawed concept, even atheists that have converted...

    Anyway that is as they say that.

    Thanks for answering guys,

    and sorry for taking ages to come back, i'm just slow like that!

    Michelle
  • Re: Hello, Been lurking, thought I'd say Hi and ask a Q
     Reply #29 - July 05, 2010, 05:56 AM

    Also, No i haven't seen the documenatries on Jesus in India... are you refering to the old myths that the myth of Jesus was built on, because I've heard about that.



    The music I was refering to is on youtube here, watch?v=EAvlimEYEpQ

    is there a reason i cant post links?


    cheers again

    Michelle
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