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 Topic: Debunker and IA debate

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  • Debunker and IA debate
     OP - June 26, 2010, 07:54 PM

    In order to avoid hijacking DigDug's thread, I started this one for my discussion with Debunker.


    ^^^ Here's an ex-Muslim who's NEVER interested in discussing Islam Smiley


    -------->

    Damn right. I usually skip most religious debates. I'm not that knowledgeable in Quran, Hadith....etc. And I don't want to waste time on debates.

    Long before I joined this forum, I have made a list of the problems I have with Islam and the concept of God in general. I use them whenever I debate someone. Until someone answers them all, I won't waste any time on religion. Feel free to start a new thread and answer my questions. I would love that indeed. It's been a while since I discussed religion with anybody.  Smiley

    • Evolution. God didn't create us homo sapiens in our current form. Therefore the Quran is false.
    • The concept of hell. Infinite punishment for finite offenses. How is that fair?
    • Apostates go to hell. I didn't chose to be Muslim. Why should I be punished?
    • Did Allah send prophets to the Aztecs? what about ancient China? what about anywhere outside the Middle East? and if he did, why is it never mentioned in the Quran or the Hadith?
    • Why was Mohammed the last prophet? why not keep sending prophets? what's the harm?  it's been 1500 years, why does God make it so hard to believe in him?
    • Why doesn't Allah show us some miracles? seriously what's he waiting for?
    • Why doesn't he just appear and talk to us directly without prophets and angels acting as intermediates?
    • Why does Allah want to test us? why did he create us?
    • Why hasn't there been any case of an amputated limb regenerating in recorded history?
    • Why is music Haram? Why is chess Haram?
    • Why is fucking Haram? (specially when we have contraceptives)
    • Why is kissing, oral sex, or even hugging the opposite sex haram?
    • Why does Allah need us to do complicated rituals? can't he just measure the faith in our hearts? why does he need me to kneel and say a particular verse? why the complicated form of worship?
    • Why are there congenital deformities? didn't Allah say is the Quran "we created you in the best form"?
    • Why are their famines? Why are there natural disasters?
    • Why does Allah allow Satan to exist?
    • Why does the husband have authority over the wife? why not the other way around?
    • 4:34
    • Why is a woman's testimony equal to half of a man's?
    • Now that we have DNA parental identification, why can't women practice polygamy like men?
    • Muhammed fucked a 9-year old when he was in his 50s
    • Muhammed had sex with a war slave
    • Mohammed's military conquests
    • Omniscience is logically impossible. How can anyone/anything know *everything* including the future and yet be able to *decide*?
      Therefore even if a God existed, he is not omniscient. And since the Quran says that Allah is  عالم كل شيء many times, the Quran is false.
    • Which brings me to predestination. This is the first question that made me doubt the existence of any god.
      If Allah is omniscient, then that means he knows whether I'll go to Hell or Heaven. Think about it, he knows where everyone of us will end up. Let's say there's someone who will be born, in 152 years 248 days and 57 minutes from now. God, at this very moment as I'm typing knows about that. In fact he knows how long this person will live, what s/he will do every second of his/her life, when s/he will die, and whether s/he will go to Hell or Heaven. IOW, God has already in a way "determined" this person's deeds and destiny and the person in question CANNOT in any logical way alter God's plan. Therefore either we don't have a choice or God is not omniscient.


    -------->

    @ IA

    I discussed more than half of your questions here and at FFI, but one question, in particulat caught my attention:

    Quote
    Why hasn't there been any case of an amputated limb regenerating in recorded history?

    Huh? what does that have to do with belief/disbelief in God/Islam?


    -------->

    Because it means there is no interfering God and that Duaa is a farce.


    -------->

    That's interesting! So what else do you expect Dua should be capable of achieving? Bringing back the dead? Splitting seas? Breaking the Laws of nature?


    -------->

    Why not? if there really is an omnipotent, caring, interfering god, then why shouldn't I expect him to break the laws of nature every now and then and give us a miracle?
    After all he is omnipotent and above the laws of nature and he will bring us to life in the judgment day from the graves after our bodies has decomposed. So, why doesn't he do it now? just once? is it too much am I asking for?


    -------->

    Ok, so you can cross out that question about limb regrowing, from your list, since you already have a question about miracles there.

    Anyway, the Quran does address the question of miracles and does address the question of a UNIVERSAL miracle that everyone can see... I'll look up the verses and post them here.


    -------->

    Oh well, I don't want to start a big discussion, besides, this thread is likely going cold now (I don't think DD or others would want to add anything).
    _______________________________

    Similar questions were asked by the ancients before: 17:93; 4:153; 2:118.

    In fact, God could have sent a sign powerful enough that it would force humanity to believe.

    26:3-4
    It may be that thou tormentest thyself because they believe not.
    If (such) were Our Will, We could send down to them from the sky a Sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.


    But then of course that goes against the original plan (giving man the *ability* to choose).

    As for *local* miracles, the Quran says that people of ancient times dismissed them as magic (17:59; 6:7; too many to list here), and so would Meccans if Muhammed performed miracles... those who want to believe don't need miracles. Islam is the last message from God and without miracles. Early Muslims didn't need miracles to believe, and many ancients didn't believe despite miracles.

    EDITED to add verse numbers/correct verse numbers.


    -------->

    That's not an answer. I don't believe in the Quran so there's not point quoting verses from it. I want a laudable explanation as to why God won't show us any miracles.
    If you would like to continue this discussion, I strongly suggest starting a new thread.


    -------->

    @ IA

    actually, I want to highjack this thread...

    so what kind of miracles do you want? local ones or universal ones everyone can see? Powerful enough so that you have no choice but to believe?




  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #1 - June 26, 2010, 07:55 PM

    How about splitting a river and carving the word "Allah" at the bottom of it? or better yet how about he comes out and show us himself?
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #2 - June 26, 2010, 08:03 PM

    Quote
    How about splitting a river and carving the word "Allah" at the bottom of it? or better yet how about he comes out and show us himself?


    Wow! I know you don't care, but so many verses reported many people asking your very same question.

    Anyway, do you think if He shown Himself, you'd have any choice but to believe? If that was what He wanted (stripping you of the ability to choose), He could have created you an angel.

    So your question really boils down to: Why didn't God create us like angels without the ability to choose?

    Ans: I don't know. Angels asked God the same question (as to why would He create man), and they got no answer.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #3 - June 26, 2010, 08:10 PM

    Anyway, do you think if He shown Himself, you'd have any choice but to believe? If that was what He wanted (stripping you of the ability to choose), He could have created you an angel.


    Yes, we have a choice.  Believe without evidence, or reject due to the lack of evidence.  This is the same answer for EVERY religion in the world that has a God.  God can't prove it is real because then we'd KNOW, and it is more important that we believe for no apparent reason, because that is gullible pious.

    If a man points a gun at me I don't ask for evidence it has bullets in it.  I still have a choice as to whether I will submit to his demands or attempt to rebel against him.  Your age old argument is utter rubbish. The truth is that "Allah" provides no evidence because there is no Allah to provide the evidence.  How is Allah discernable from all the other gods which do not exist?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #4 - June 26, 2010, 08:12 PM

    Mods, could you please move this thread to the Exclusive Rooms? PLEEEEASE!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #5 - June 26, 2010, 08:19 PM

    Wow! I know you don't care, but so many verses reported many people asking your very same question.

    So?


    Anyway, do you think if He shown Himself, you'd have any choice but to believe?

    If he showed himself, I will believe he exists. You know on account of me seeing him and all !


    If that was what He wanted (stripping you of the ability to choose), He could have created you an angel.

    First of all, I didn't say he wants to "strip me of the ability to chose". I just said he either doesn't exist or is not omniscient.
    Secondly, I don't believe in angels.


    So your question really boils down to: Why didn't God create us like angels without the ability to choose?

    That's some fucked-up reasoning. I never asked such a question.


    Ans: I don't know. Angels asked God the same question (as to why would He create man), and they got no answer.

    Were you present when they asked him? how do they look like?
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #6 - June 26, 2010, 08:20 PM

    Mods, could you please move this thread to the Exclusive Rooms? PLEEEEASE!


    Oh no, that nasty TheRationalizer called me on my bullshit, please can we hide it somewhere where he can't respond?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #7 - June 26, 2010, 08:23 PM

    @ IA

    Quote
    If he showed himself, I will believe he exists. You know on account of me seeing him and all !


    Ok, so let's concentrate on this. If He shown Himself then you will be forced to believe, right?

    I'm not sure if that's your question? Are you asking why doesn't He force us to believe? Because showing Himself is as good as forcing you to believe.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #8 - June 26, 2010, 08:24 PM

    Oh no, that nasty TheRationalizer called me on my bullshit, please can we hide it somewhere where he can't respond?


    The bullshit is you acting all smart and shit when you really aren't! Please, Ration, you get on my nerves, I can't stand you, please buzz of this thread! I beg you!

    Or mods, please move this to the Exclusive Rooms.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #9 - June 26, 2010, 08:26 PM

    Oh, thank you Aziz!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #10 - June 26, 2010, 08:27 PM

    I MADE A COMMENTS THREAD. PLEASE POST COMMENTS THERE:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10973.new#new
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #11 - June 26, 2010, 08:28 PM

    The bullshit is you acting all smart and shit when you really aren't! Please, Ration, you get on my nerves, I can't stand you, please buzz of this thread! I beg you!

    Or mods, please move this to the Exclusive Rooms.


    My comment was in no way "acting smart", you just didn't like it because it was true.

    I have an all powerful carrot in my fridge. If you don't obey it then it will torture your nan for ever and ever, but don't ask the carrot to prove its power because that will just piss it off and then it will torture your grandfather too.  You must believe in the carrot without proof, it's the only way to get your eternal reward......and it's not salad.

    What you said was bullshit, I pointed it out.  Public forum, public comments, don't like it?  Switch to emails.  But don't expect to come out with that "believing without evidence is pious" bullshit in public and expect me to not call it for what it is.


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #12 - June 26, 2010, 08:33 PM

    Ok, so let's concentrate on this. If He shown Himself then you will be forced to believe, right?

    Yes, in the same way I am forced to believe in bananas. The reason is I have seen bananas !


    I'm not sure if that's your question? Are you asking why doesn't He force us to believe? Because showing Himself is as good as forcing you to believe.

    I'm asking why does he makes it a mystery? why does he send prophets and angels? why doesn't he just show himself? why the intermediates?
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #13 - June 26, 2010, 08:36 PM

    @ IA

    Quote
    Yes, in the same way I am forced to believe in bananas. The reason is I have seen bananas !


    Because He doesn't want to give you no choice but to believe.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #14 - June 26, 2010, 08:50 PM

    Because He doesn't want to give you no choice but to believe.

    1-How do you know that? did he authorize you to speak on his behalf?
    2-Assuming for the sake of the argument that's true, why? why does he not want to give me choice?


    Tell me to buzz off all you like, I won't be singled out for censorship.  Sorry.

    Hey don't mind Debunker. We all like you here, myself included.
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #15 - June 26, 2010, 08:55 PM

    1-How do you know that? did he authorize you to speak on his behalf?


    No, He didn't.

    Quote
    2-Assuming for the sake of the argument that's true, why? why does he not want to give me choice?


    I don't know, but to answer, at this point, I'll have to refer to words I believe He has spoken, which you won't accept.

    The way I see it, according to the long list you posted, you wanted to discuss the *Quranic* God... Now, it seems you want to discuss Deism. Does this mean we should dismiss your list, and discuss Deism, instead?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #16 - June 26, 2010, 08:57 PM

    Hey don't mind Debunker. We all like you here, myself included.


    That maybe true, but this is now in the Exclusive Rooms, if he feels the urge to share his brilliance wth everyone, he could do it in the comments thread opened by BD.

    No need to encourage him IA, please!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #17 - June 26, 2010, 11:16 PM

    No, He didn't.

    So how do you know that "he doesn't want to give me no choice but to believe"?


    I don't know, but to answer, at this point, I'll have to refer to words I believe He has spoken,

    How do you know for sure he has spoken them? couldn't it be possible that Muhammed made it all up?


    which you won't accept.

    I like this, you know how I think. Now tell me, do you think I should accept them? is there any reason?


    The way I see it, according to the long list you posted, you wanted to discuss the *Quranic* God... Now, it seems you want to discuss Deism. Does this mean we should dismiss your list, and discuss Deism, instead?

    Nope. I said this is a list of "the problems I have with Islam and the concept of God in general". They're inseparable subjects IMO. In fact, it was mainly the logical arguments against God that made me apostatize not the Quran or the Hadith.

    So discuss what you like and do not be confined by the list.




    That maybe true, but this is now in the Exclusive Rooms, if he feels the urge to share his brilliance wth everyone, he could do it in the comments thread opened by BD.

    No need to encourage him IA, please!

    I was not encouraging him.  It's just that you were being unnecessarily rude with him. And I like him.
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #18 - June 27, 2010, 12:24 AM

    Quote
    Nope. I said this is a list of "the problems I have with Islam and the concept of God in general". They're inseparable subjects IMO. In fact, it was mainly the logical arguments against God that made me apostatize not the Quran or the Hadith.

    So discuss what you like and do not be confined by the list.


    Ok, I guess we'll have to avoid discussing the Quranic God, then. Because, for example, it's difficult to discuss your question:

    "Why doesn't Allah show us some miracles? seriously what's he waiting for?"

    without being allowed to discuss the whole argument as presented in the Quran. It's like you discussing a part of the picture while refusing to see the whole picture.

    It's like me asking why Yahweh sacrificed His Son, while refusing to listen to the justification given in the Bible. I should listen and then judge whether I find the justification plausible or not (assuming Yahweh exists). 

    Anyway, as far as Deism is concerned, I did discuss this before. I could provide links if you want.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #19 - June 27, 2010, 12:29 AM

    Quote
    I was not encouraging him.  It's just that you were being unnecessarily rude with him. And I like him.


    Ok, I get it.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #20 - June 27, 2010, 12:32 AM

    I'll try one more thing:

    Why doesn't God show us miracles?

    What God? And who said God wants us to believe He exists or that He's testing us or that He will punish/reward us? If you say the Quran says such and such, then I should be allowed to explain what else the Quran says, giving the whole picture, and then you judge the entire Quranic argument related to any given question.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #21 - June 27, 2010, 12:35 AM

    Why doesn't God show us miracles?

    What God? And who said God wants us to believe He exists or that He's testing us or that He will punish/reward us? If you say the Quran says such and such, then I should be allowed to explain what else the Quran says, giving the whole picture, and then you judge the entire Quranic argument related to any given question.

    Fair enough. Post the Quran if you wish.  Smiley

     
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #22 - June 27, 2010, 12:38 AM

    really?!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #23 - June 27, 2010, 12:42 AM

    Yeah really. I'm not going to accept the Quran as a fact but I will accept it as the words of the Quranic God and I'm gonna tell why I have a problem with these words.
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #24 - June 27, 2010, 12:42 AM

    Ok, so as far as to why not send more miracles or why wouldn't God show Himself, I have already presented the Qranic argument and you rejected it.. so I guess I'll have to pick another one of your questions.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #25 - June 27, 2010, 12:48 AM

    Ok, let's see this question:

    Quote
    Did Allah send prophets to the Aztecs? what about ancient China? what about anywhere outside the Middle East? and if he did, why is it never mentioned in the Quran or the Hadith?


    The Quranic claim is that God sent to every nation, a prophet:

    Bee:36
    وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَّسُولاً أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُواْ الطَّاغُوتَ فَمِنْهُم مَّنْ هَدَى اللّهُ وَمِنْهُم مَّنْ حَقَّتْ عَلَيْهِ الضَّلالَةُ فَسِيرُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ فَانظُرُواْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #26 - June 27, 2010, 12:56 AM

    another question from your list:

    Quote
    Why does Allah allow Satan to exist?


    Why not? I really wish there were no mad dogs... no snakes, no scorpions, no poisonous bugs, no disease, no aging, etc. But guess what? This life is no paradise. And while these inconveniences are part of the material world, the inconveniences of Satan, bad peer pressure, and evil side of the self are all part of the inconveniences of the spiritual world. This life is NOT perfect and it was meant not to be perfect on every level.

    Anyway, God says Satan's work is weak (4:76) and Satan confirms that ALL HE CAN DO is merely call upon us to follow him (14:22) Besides, please don't forget that listening to Satan is only one way... you can also obey the evil side of yourself (25:43; 28:50; 12:53) and other people (6:116; 37:56; 114:6).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #27 - June 27, 2010, 01:04 AM

    Ok, let's see this question:

    The Quranic claim is that God sent to every nation, a prophet:

    Bee:36
    وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَّسُولاً أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُواْ الطَّاغُوتَ فَمِنْهُم مَّنْ هَدَى اللّهُ وَمِنْهُم مَّنْ حَقَّتْ عَلَيْهِ الضَّلالَةُ فَسِيرُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ فَانظُرُواْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ


    LOL. And you expect me to take the Quran's words as proof that Allah sent prophets to the Aztecs?
     
    I want two things:

    1-Any Aya or Hadith that mentions the name(s) of the prophet(s) that were sent to these areas. Or at least mentions one of these names: Aztec, Maya, Peru, America, China, Confucius, Xia Dynasty, Shang Dynasty, Zhou Dynasty, Kin Dynasty, Han Dynasty, Ancient Greece, Akkad, Sumeria, Assyria, Hammurabi......etc
    2-Any archeological evidence that suggest that these civilizations received a prophet from Allah.

    Until you do, I believe no prophets who preached a message similar to Muhammed's were sent to these people.
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #28 - June 27, 2010, 01:09 AM

    regarding this:

    Quote
    Why does Allah want to test us? why did he create us?

     

    He doesn't need to test us, sure the (literal) language of some verses do say that He's testing us, but that's just a way to express things or illustrate concepts. In numerous many verses God says He's omniscient. So why the test when He already knows the result? The test is for me. Just imagine the first second I come to be aware, I see two mighty angels dragging me to Hell. When I ask why? They'd tell me: "Had you lived a life you never lived, you would have done such and such"... that's why there is a test, so that I know what I have done before being judged for it.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #29 - June 27, 2010, 01:11 AM

    LOL. And you expect me to take the Quran's words as proof that Allah sent prophets to the Aztecs?
     
    I want two things:

    1-Any Aya or Hadith that mentions the name(s) of the prophet(s) that were sent to these areas. Or at least mentions one of these names: Aztec, Maya, Peru, America, China, Confucius, Xia Dynasty, Shang Dynasty, Zhou Dynasty, Kin Dynasty, Han Dynasty, Ancient Greece, Akkad, Sumeria, Assyria, Hammurabi......etc
    2-Any archeological evidence that suggest that these civilizations received a prophet from Allah.

    Until you do, I believe no prophets who preached a message similar to Muhammed's were sent to these people.


    Your accusation:

    Why didn't the Quranic God send prophets to other people?

    The refutation: the Quranic God never said he didn't send prophets to other nations. In fact He said the opposite.

    Then you changed your question to: Prove to me that there were monotheistic prophets other than in the Middle East.

    Ans: Obviously I can't prove that.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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