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 Topic: Debunker are you an apostate?

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  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #90 - June 22, 2010, 01:38 PM
    Ok cool. So how do you personally deal with the implications of the eternal torture?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #91 - June 22, 2010, 01:40 PM
     dance
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #92 - June 22, 2010, 01:41 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 22, 2010, 01:25 PM
    Question

    If the Qur'an was sent to confirm the previous Books, in this case, the Torah, then why doesn't it contain the injunction of stoning for adulterers? I mean, it's the same 'kitab,' isn't it? So why isn't it in there?

    And at the same time, was stoning part of the Injeel? I think Jesus did not mandate such a practice at all, and yet the Qur'an says that 'there is no change in the words of Allah.'

    Not trying to catch you out or something, these things just don't make sense to me, at present.

    And another thing, are you a mu'tazilite?

    They would say you that the bible and torah had been modified, and that's why god sent Mo, to restore the original message.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
    "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. "
    --Buddha
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #93 - June 22, 2010, 01:42 PM
    db... temporarily?  so there IS hope!   Cheesy
    anywayz... since i lost my baby, i was told not to worry cuz my baby would
    bring me up by his umbilical cord to where HE is in jannah   parrot
    *singing*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYEgYVyBDuM
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #94 - June 22, 2010, 01:45 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 01:37 PM
    @ Oz

    Some will never be tortured by Hell... some will be tortured only temporarily and some for all eternity... that's what the Quran says in perfectly clear undeniable words... so I can't be like some other Muslim here and say that Hell is "metaphorical" Wink

    the qu'ran says that only muslims are goin' to heaven, all non-muslim are goin' to hell, but muslims who commited sins are goin' to hell temporarily till they are forgiven
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
    "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. "
    --Buddha
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #95 - June 22, 2010, 01:47 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 22, 2010, 01:38 PM
    Ok cool. So how do you personally deal with the implications of the eternal torture?


    I discussed this in detail with Hassan. But basically, i believe I'm infinitely insignificant + God not caring about me AT ALL means eternity in Hell (the default is Hell, God has to care about me to save me from this fate.. if He doesn't care about me at all, then I'll simply spend eternity in there... in other words, why should He make my fate any easier if He doesn't care AT ALL about me?)
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #96 - June 22, 2010, 01:48 PM
    Quote from: kero-zen on June 22, 2010, 01:45 PM
    the qu'ran says that only muslims are goin' to heaven, all non-muslim are goin' to hell, but muslims who commited sins are goin' to hell temporarily till they are forgiven


    Yep.  This one always pissed me off.  A muslim could commit henious crimes his whole life, and eventually get out of hell.

    An Atheist could live a decent life in which he kills no one, hurts no one, always strives to be the best he can be, but NEVER get out of hell.

    Yeah, that's an all loving, all merciful god indeed.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #97 - June 22, 2010, 01:48 PM
    damn! LOL  oh well, i have NEVER slept so good since my revelations about both jehovah AND big al
    being non existent anywayz... all the "chattering monkeys" in my head (guilt shit) has stopped too.
    I couldnt be happier.  
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #98 - June 22, 2010, 01:51 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 01:47 PM
    I discussed this in detail with Hassan. But basically, i believe I'm infinitely insignificant + God not caring about me AT ALL means eternity in Hell (the default is Hell, God has to care about me to save me from this fate.. if He doesn't care about me at all, then I'll simply spend eternity in there... in other words, why should He make my fate any easier if He doesn't care AT ALL about me?)

    No what I meant was how do you deal with the ethical implications of infinite punishment for finite crimes?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #99 - June 22, 2010, 01:52 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 01:47 PM
    I discussed this in detail with Hassan. But basically, i believe I'm infinitely insignificant + God not caring about me AT ALL means eternity in Hell (the default is Hell, God has to care about me to save me from this fate.. if He doesn't care about me at all, then I'll simply spend eternity in there... in other words, why should He make my fate any easier if He doesn't care AT ALL about me?)

    I thought Os meant how do you cope with the real possibility buzzing around in your head, that if you were to, god forbid, die in the next 5 minutes, the rest of eternity in hell is going to be filled with, well you know what.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #100 - June 22, 2010, 01:53 PM
    ok, Os didnt mean that  Smiley Well let me put that to you instead..
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #101 - June 22, 2010, 01:54 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 01:47 PM
    I discussed this in detail with Hassan. But basically, i believe I'm infinitely insignificant + God not caring about me AT ALL means eternity in Hell (the default is Hell, God has to care about me to save me from this fate.. if He doesn't care about me at all, then I'll simply spend eternity in there... in other words, why should He make my fate any easier if He doesn't care AT ALL about me?)

    if go didn't care at all about you why did he created you?
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 22, 2010, 01:48 PM
    Yep.  This one always pissed me off.  A muslim could commit henious crimes his whole life, and eventually get out of hell.

    An Atheist could live a decent life in which he kills no one, hurts no one, always strives to be the best he can be, but NEVER get out of hell.

    Yeah, that's an all loving, all merciful god indeed.

    that's one of the major reason that made me understand islam is a fake religion
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
    "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. "
    --Buddha
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #102 - June 22, 2010, 01:54 PM
    We figured better safe than sorry on the PI so just edit the post and it's all good. Smiley
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #103 - June 22, 2010, 02:00 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 22, 2010, 01:51 PM
    No what I meant was how do you deal with the ethical implications of infinite punishment for finite crimes?


    It's not about crime and punishment, it's simply about God caring to change my original fate: everlasting torment iin Hell.. if He doesn't care about me at all, then why should He change that fate?

    Besides, even if I was a Muslim, exactly like God wanted me to be, and yet He chose to still not care for me and leave me in Hell forever, then that would still be perfectly just. God owes me absolutely NOTHING.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #104 - June 22, 2010, 02:02 PM
    Quote from: kero-zen on June 22, 2010, 01:54 PM
    if go didn't care at all about you why did he created you?


    A creator, by default, creates.

    Anyway, I discussed all of this before with Hassan, here:
     http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8392.0
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #105 - June 22, 2010, 02:09 PM
    DB said " It's not about crime and punishment, it's simply about God caring to change my original fate: everlasting torment iin Hell.. "

    Why would god CREATE a being whose original fate is everlasting torment in hell!!!   Huh?
    And same thing with what Berbs said re: a mericful. loving god... This is also what
     finmad me off about xianity.  No matter that i spent every waking moment (outside of work)  in prayer,
    studying, fasting, more prayer, I could STILL wind up with eternal damnation?  That was the last straw
    for me.  Why bother?  It was not humanly possible for me to be more devout than i was.  The stress
    of worrying about this, and repenting for unknown sins almost killed me, literally.   BOTH in xianity and
    islam.  I could not fathom there was no god.  But i was sooooo close to committig suicide, b/c i just
    couldnt stand the guilt, threats, and an ubelievably cruel god who would punish me no matter what
    i did or didnt do.
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #106 - June 22, 2010, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 12:38 PM
    so what? I don't go to Friday prayers anymore because of the smug faces I see there... I figured it would be more pious to pray at home than feel disgusted by all the fake self righteousness, I see during my time at the mosque, don't you agree?


    Well, well, well. That's how my divorce with religion started. First I stopped going to the mosque, then started questioning and all the comes with it, and the rest is history.
    ...
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #107 - June 22, 2010, 03:17 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 21, 2010, 04:00 PM
    i think that statement from debunker would make a lot of sense if we agreed that the Qur'an was meant to be limited to 7th century Arabia where Muhammad could explain all the ambiguous bits or important verses that were missing.


    oh how did I miss that? so you still ignore the two verses I shown you where it says Muhammed was sent for all people?

    ++++++++++++++
    Here they are (I'm sure there's more)

    25:1
    Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan upon His servant that he may be a warner to the nations;

    34:28
    And We have not sent you but to all the men as a bearer of good news and as a warner, but most men do not know.
    ++++++++++++++

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #108 - June 22, 2010, 03:48 PM
    I think the Prophet and the Qur'an were meant to be a specific guidance for people who at that time the message could reach i.e. ALL the men the message would reach during Muhammad's Prophethood. In addition to the verses you quoted above, there are also these two verses:

    "Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur'an: that thou mayst
    warn the mother of cities and those around it..." (42:7)

    ''...Say: "Allah is witness between me and you; This Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches...'' (6:19)

    Therefore Muhammad HIMSELF was warning everyone who the Qur'an reached - this included Saudi but also other Arab nations.

    People argue about intepretations of Qur'an today - but in Muhammad's time things were clear and he himself could explain parts of the Qur'an that were ambiguous or important things that might have been missing. In addition the Qur'an describes itself as a 'mercy' indicating that it is not required for the guidance of man.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #109 - June 22, 2010, 04:09 PM
    Abu,

    when I have time, I'll reply to this wishful thinking you posted, it's just that I really should take care of my travel plans and I don't have time to refute every single claim you made.

    btw, I still love you Smiley
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #110 - June 22, 2010, 05:08 PM
    If God doesn't care, why does he actively threaten/warn about Hell in the scriptures?
    Seems to me the intention of Hell is to frighten people (which works very well).

    If the Prophet was meant for all people, how come after 1400 years it is still almost non-existant in South America? Why was the message presented in a language that seems to be impossible to translate?

    If not knowing the true message excuses you from an eternity of Hell, why not burn every single Quran and completely obliterate Islam so that all who follow us are completely ignorant of it, thereby saving all those who don't believe from an eternity in Hell? That way people would be judged by the merit of their action instead of their blind belief in what happened to be the true religion.

    You've probably answered these questions several times already. Smiley
    Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
       The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #111 - June 22, 2010, 07:17 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 22, 2010, 01:25 PM
    Question

    If the Qur'an was sent to confirm the previous Books, in this case, the Torah, then why doesn't it contain the injunction of stoning for adulterers? I mean, it's the same 'kitab,' isn't it? So why isn't it in there?

    And at the same time, was stoning part of the Injeel? I think Jesus did not mandate such a practice at all, and yet the Qur'an says that 'there is no change in the words of Allah.'

    Not trying to catch you out or something, these things just don't make sense to me, at present.

    And another thing, are you a mu'tazilite?


    Jesus did not mandate stoning in the New Testament. He abolished stoning in John ch.8
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #112 - June 22, 2010, 07:35 PM
    Jebus? He mandated stoning in Epic. ch. 2 Oh wait I mean getting stoned.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-kDpnArNg4&feature=related
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #113 - June 22, 2010, 07:41 PM
    @ TLK

    Quote
    You've probably answered these questions several times already.

    yes, I did but I'll answer you very briefly.

    Quote
    If God doesn't care, why does he actively threaten/warn about Hell in the scriptures?

    Although His infinite majesty makes Him not care, He's still infinitely merciful as well. He doesn't really want Hell for me, so He warns me against it... if I don't care for His warnings, he won't care for me.

    Quote
    Seems to me the intention of Hell is to frighten people (which works very well).

    That's very plausible (Hell being an invention to frighten people).

    Quote
    If the Prophet was meant for all people, how come after 1400 years it is still almost non-existant in South America?

    So what? Are you saying that South America isn't aware of Islam?  

    Quote
    Why was the message presented in a language that seems to be impossible to translate?

    The message itself can be translated, though.

    Quote
    If not knowing the true message excuses you from an eternity of Hell, why not burn every single Quran and completely obliterate Islam so that all who follow us are completely ignorant of it, thereby saving all those who don't believe from an eternity in Hell? That way people would be judged by the merit of their action instead of their blind belief in what happened to be the true religion.

    It's like saying instead of making the Law known, why not hide it, so that people can repeatedly break it without being held accountable.

    If God didn't want us to be accountable, He could have created us as the rest of dumb animals.

    Why would you expect God would want to hide His truth from us? Heck, I can even ask a better question: Why didn't God just create more angels, instead of creating men, capable of war, blasphemy and evil? The angels did ask God that question in the Quran, and God said only He knows why He created man with the ability to choose.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #114 - June 23, 2010, 07:31 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 02:00 PM
    It's not about crime and punishment, it's simply about God caring to change my original fate: everlasting torment iin Hell.. if He doesn't care about me at all, then why should He change that fate?

    Besides, even if I was a Muslim, exactly like God wanted me to be, and yet He chose to still not care for me and leave me in Hell forever, then that would still be perfectly just. God owes me absolutely NOTHING.

    Ok, thanks for explaining that far but you still have some problems here.

    1/ Yes, it is about crime and punishment. This is clear from the way the descriptions of Hell are worded. It is obviously intended to be a punishment for acting against Allah's wishes in one way or another. I can't see how you can regard Hell as anything else (but feel free to explain).

    2/ Why should your original fate be Hell? Are you promoting the Christian doctrine of original sin now? According to Islam you were born Muslim and without sin, unless I'm missing something. In that case your original fate (ie: before you have had a chance to do "evil") should be heaven. Isn't that what Allah promises for Muslims who are free from sin?

    3/ This is somewhat related to 2/ but anyway.........If Allah owes you nothing then why, pray tell, does he owe you eternal torture as a default option? You are trying to say that he does not owe you heaven and I wont argue that, but that doesn't explain Hell being the default.

    Furthermore, your assumption of Hell as the default option says something about the nature of Allah. What you are really claiming here is that Allah's fundamental nature is based on unceasing, pointless, vindictive sadism. In other words, to exercise the merciful side of his nature he would have to act against his core nature. Now that leads you into all sorts of quandaries.

    For instance, if the fundamental nature of Allah is good then Hell is "good". If the only way Allah can be "good' is by acting against his core nature then that means he is, by nature, not good.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #115 - June 23, 2010, 07:51 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 23, 2010, 07:31 AM

    3/ This is somewhat related to 2/ but anyway.........If Allah owes you nothing then why, pray tell, does he owe you eternal torture as a default option? You are trying to say that he does not owe you heaven and I wont argue that, but that doesn't explain Hell being the default.

     Afro
    ...
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #116 - June 23, 2010, 11:28 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 23, 2010, 07:31 AM

    2/ Why should your original fate be Hell?

    Not sure if this is true according to Islam, but my mum always told be that children who die at birth go straight to heaven..
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #117 - June 27, 2010, 09:21 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 12:38 PM
    so what? I don't go to Friday prayers anymore because of the smug faces I see there... I figured it would be more pious to pray at home than feel disgusted by all the fake self righteousness, I see during my time at the mosque, don't you agree?


    Hey bro what do you mean by 'fake self righteousness' in the mosque? Care to share? =]

    Because I always view that it is compulsory for men to attend Friday prayers in congregation.
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #118 - June 27, 2010, 09:22 AM
    I think they are Muslims as long as they believe in the Oneness of Allah (there is no god worthy of worship except Allah) and the prophets (peace be upon them).
  • Re: Debunker are you an apostate?
     Reply #119 - June 27, 2010, 11:23 AM
    Ah so Baha'is are muslims then? Cool. Too bad 99% of muslims will say they're kafirs. Because they have prophet of their own.
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