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 Topic: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK

 (Read 42888 times)
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  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #30 - June 18, 2010, 09:26 PM

    I'm wondering how much of a financial loss the organisers are going to make.  Hiring out Wembley, LG Arena and Sheffield Arena can't be cheap.

    .
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #31 - June 18, 2010, 10:00 PM

    Predictably, the defenders of Zakir Naik will claim that all of his odious views are taken "out of context".  Roll Eyes

    Here's the press release from his Islamic Research Foundation... http://www.apc2010.org/images/stories/Press_release_by_IRF_regarding_DZN_exclusion_%20for_uk.pdf

    At the end it says:

    In the wake of the exclusion order and based on legal advice, Dr Zakir Naik intends to bring the matter before the High Court of the United Kingdom and request a Judicial Review to have the exclusion order overturned.

    I can give more evidence to support the Home Office in their decision to exclude him.  They haven't mentioned his approval of the death penalty for apostates for a start.

    .
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #32 - June 18, 2010, 10:04 PM

    Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

    Spewing out nonsense against jews, calling americans terrorists, etc, is all going to incite violence and prejudice against non muslims in the muslim world, hence its not, and shouldn't be protected by freedom of speech.


    Yes, from that very article:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech#United_States

    Any state that imposes more restrictions on speech than described above is NOT respecting the right of free speech. How it is handled in the US is the bare minimum standard.

    European politicians with their statist, authoritarian "hate speech" statutes can suck my dick. Notice how easily and quickly these hate speech statutes have been cited in an attempt to silence criticism of Islam. These kind of laws are unjust abridgment of people's rights by the state, and anyone who supports them is an enemy of freedom, no matter how much they protest to the contrary.

    The kind of PC social liberals who support these laws and claim to support freedom as well, actually the support the same kind of "freedom" as Islamists and fundamentalist Christians who talk of freedom really support-- the "freedom" to think, speak, and behave in a way that does not offend them-- anything they find sufficiently offensive is criminalized.

    fuck you
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #33 - June 18, 2010, 10:14 PM

    He is a walking advertisement against Islam.

    Not to muslims he isnt.

    His 911 denial, support for Bin Laden and support of the death penalty for apostates is music to their ears.  In fact his has reached hero status amongst most first generation muslims in the UK.

    The governments intervention shows that such views are not acceptable here - hopefully that will send his worshippers a message too.

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  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #34 - June 18, 2010, 10:22 PM

    The governments intervention shows that such views are not acceptable here - hopefully that will send his worshippers a message too.

    A shitty substitute for the real deal imo - a critical public evaluation of all aspects of contemporary Islam.

    The government is basically playing a game of charade, hoping that the other side gets the message. Which is completely futile not to mention the fact
    that freedom is sacrificed as collateral damage in the process.

    European politicians with their statist, authoritarian "hate speech" statutes can suck my dick. Notice how easily and quickly these hate speech statutes have been cited in an attempt to silence criticism of Islam. These kind of laws are unjust abridgment of people's rights by the state, and anyone who supports them is an enemy of freedom, no matter how much they protest to the contrary.

    The kind of PC social liberals who support these laws and claim to support freedom as well, actually the support the same kind of "freedom" as Islamists and fundamentalist Christians who talk of freedom really support-- the "freedom" to think, speak, and behave in a way that does not offend them-- anything they find sufficiently offensive is criminalized.

    +1
    Q-Man for president! (benevolent dictator?)
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #35 - June 18, 2010, 10:23 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdJRDpLHbw
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #36 - June 18, 2010, 10:24 PM

    The reason why he's so popular is because he's a showman who speaks confidently and he defends Islam "logically" and "scientifically" (never mind that he's talking utter rubbish).  People are mesmerised by his amazing memory and ability to recite scripture off memory.

    .
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #37 - June 18, 2010, 10:26 PM

    The governments intervention shows that such views are not acceptable here - hopefully that will send his worshippers a message too.


    Considering the fact Geert Wilders was banned too, seems like the UK government is sending the message that any controversial views are not acceptable, nor is the freedom of speech respected there.

    fuck you
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #38 - June 18, 2010, 10:29 PM

    The governments intervention shows that such views are not acceptable here - hopefully that will send his worshippers a message too.

    It's not the government's duty or right to decide which view or ideology is unacceptable. I will decide that. Thank you.
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #39 - June 18, 2010, 10:36 PM

    Considering the fact Geert Wilders was banned too, seems like the UK government is sending the message that any controversial views are not acceptable, nor is the freedom of speech respected there.


    I don't agree with banning Zakir Naik from the UK, but those two things aren't quite the same, (and incidentally its not the same government making the decisions either).  Geert Wilders is an EU citizen, which means he has automatic right of entry to any EU country, the UK included.  To suddenly rescind that right because his views are controversial is several degrees more sinister than simply refusing a visa to Naik.  Its almost as bad as refusing a UK citizen the right to enter the UK.  Naik never had the right to enter the country in the first place, he comes from a place where everybody needs to apply for a visa to visit the UK.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #40 - June 18, 2010, 10:42 PM

    (and incidentally its not the same government making the decisions either).  


    That there has been a change in which ruling class political faction manages the state is of little importance to me. The state banned Geert Wilders for his controversial views and they banned Zakir Naik. This confirms for me what I already knew-- that the UK's state apparata do not respect the right free speech. The only difference a change in political parties is who the party in power wants to censor, not their willingness to do so.

    Quote
    Geert Wilders is an EU citizen, which means he has automatic right of entry to any EU country, the UK included.  To suddenly rescind that right because his views are controversial is several degrees more sinister than simply refusing a visa to Naik.  Its almost as bad as refusing a UK citizen the right to enter the UK.  Naik never had the right to enter the country in the first place, he comes from a place where everybody needs to apply for a visa to visit the UK.


    Good point.

    fuck you
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #41 - June 18, 2010, 10:51 PM

    Considering the fact Geert Wilders was banned too, seems like the UK government is sending the message that any controversial views are not acceptable, nor is the freedom of speech respected there.

    Geert Wilders was wrong as he was not enticing violence, if anything he was condemning it.  Zakir Naik did the opposite.

    UK is different from the United States, its muslims here are different too.  Here they are becoming more & more ghettoised, with rhetoric to match.  Some would say the governments hapless ignorance and fear have not helped.  But I feel it is time to do something about it, before bombings & radicalisation becomes a normal part of society.  The way I see it, there are 2 options:

    Like Kenan says, where Islam is openly & objectively criticised (thats never going to be allowed to happen)

    Or like this, where at least a firm message is being sent.  

    For all those people watching the Islam channel who think Naik is a model citizen whose views are accepted by mainstream society, they will need to re-evaluate.  This will get discussed on the Islam channel left & right, along with the reasons why.  This is the discussion that needs to take place rather than screaming Allah hu Akbar everytime a gay person is mocked.

    Lets not forget, Zakir Naik is supporting the death of innocents.  And I dont support his entry here, no more than I support a group of Nazis spreading their vitriole here either.  Its a small island, and things dont wash away as easily as they do in the States.

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  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #42 - June 18, 2010, 10:53 PM

    Quote
    That there has been a change in which ruling class political faction manages the state is of little importance to me. The state banned Geert Wilders for his controversial views and they banned Zakir Naik. This confirms for me what I already knew-- that the UK's state apparata do not respect the right free speech. The only difference a change in political parties is who the party in power wants to censor, not their willingness to do so.


    There's an element of truth to that, but its worth noting that the decision to ban Geert Wilders was reversed even though the same party was in government.  A simple change of Home Secretary was all it took, and Jacqui Smith must have been one of the worst Home Secretaries ever, certainly one of the most censorious.  She banned other people who were controversial as well, Wilders just got the most attention from the press because he's an MEP.  

    Given that the attitude of the state became markedly less censorious when she was booted, I don't think the simple act of refusing a visa to one non-EU citizen is grounds for too much pessimism.  My attitude is that the jury is still out on this government, although I do think they should have given him an entry visa.  He'd only make a twat of himself anyway.   Smiley

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #43 - June 18, 2010, 10:58 PM

    ROFL I know someone who planning to go to his little talks. I guess they won't be going now , such a shame.
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #44 - June 18, 2010, 11:01 PM

    He'd only make a twat of himself anyway.   Smiley

    To you & us maybe, but not to those who count?

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  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #45 - June 18, 2010, 11:06 PM

    IsLame, those people have access to what he says anyway, they watch television, they have internet access.  Its pointless to bar him from the country for that reason.  Let him come over, spew his bullshit, get reported in the press and be exposed to a non-muslim audience.  The ridicule and derision he would provoke would be far more of a shock to those people than a ban, that just leaves his fan base prone to conspiracy theories and the usual vomit inducing victim mentality.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #46 - June 18, 2010, 11:06 PM

    IsLame, those people have access to what he says anyway, they watch television, they have internet access.  Its pointless to bar him from the country for that reason.  Let him come over, spew his bullshit, get reported in the press and be exposed to a non-muslim audience.  The ridicule and derision he would provoke would be far more of a shock to those people than a ban, that just leaves his fan base prone to conspiracy theories and the usual vomit inducing victim mentality.


    +1
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #47 - June 18, 2010, 11:17 PM

    IsLame, those people have access to what he says anyway, they watch television, they have internet access.  Its pointless to bar him from the country for that reason.  Let him come over, spew his bullshit, get reported in the press and be exposed to a non-muslim audience.  The ridicule and derision he would provoke would be far more of a shock to those people than a ban, that just leaves his fan base prone to conspiracy theories and the usual vomit inducing victim mentality.

    I dont want any more subliminal racism from the tabloid press.  We've had that going on for the last 40 years, and its made no difference.  The indiginous population just get more & more pissed off with how they are being taken for a ride, and the muslims become more marginalised and victimised by the stories on the front of the newspaper.

    It makes it even more of a shame when the new generation growing up might not even support Naik, and they feel it too (like I did growing up).

    In any case he openly supports assassinating innocent people, alowing people like him to spew their hatred sends out the wrong message.  Now at least muslims will discuss it, and other future Muslim roadshow wannabe's will think twice about the things they say before their brain-starved public.

    I think it better for the long term, up till now allowing him to come here (and Ahmed Deedat before him) changed nothing and in fact built huge followings of a deeply divisive brotherhood.

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  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #48 - June 18, 2010, 11:20 PM

    Quote
    In any case he openly supports assassinating innocent people


    If that's true, then they were right to ban him.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #49 - June 18, 2010, 11:20 PM

    Geert Wilders was wrong as he was not enticing violence, if anything he was condemning it.  Zakir Naik did the opposite.


    What comments by Zakir Naik are you referring to specifically? And if you could give as much context as possible it would certainly be appreciated.

    Quote
    UK is different from the United States, its muslims here are different too.  Here they are becoming more & more ghettoised, with rhetoric to match.  Some would say the governments hapless ignorance and fear have not helped. But I feel it is time to do something about it, before bombings & radicalisation becomes a normal part of society.


    Irrelevant. Rights are rights, justice is justice.

    Quote
    The way I see it, there are 2 options:

    Like Kenan says, where Islam is openly & objectively criticised (thats never going to be allowed to happen)

    Or like this, where at least a firm message is being sent.

      

    Here's another option-- don't rely on the state to fix these problems, being that its primary objective is to maintain itself and expand its powers, and when it does try fixing social problems often fucks up things even worse.

    Messages can be sent and Islam openly & objectively criticized without your MPs and government ministers lifting a fucking finger. Of course that requires people to both recognize and act on their individual and collective autonomy.

    LAST POINT: I recognize that denying Naik a visa may not in itself be a violation of the right of free speech, since it could be credibly argued the UK simply exercised is national sovereignty in preventing his entry into the country, just as I don't have to let him in my house to preach bullshit. But what I'm talking about is about more than Naik and Wilders-- it's the fact that your government long ago decided it could violate the right to free speech whenever it deemed necessary, and the people have done nothing to challenge it. The US has its own problems of the people allowing the state to violate people's rights, that are arguably worse than the UK, but most of the time it's not the freedom of speech, except in times of war.

    There's an element of truth to that, but its worth noting that the decision to ban Geert Wilders was reversed even though the same party was in government.  A simple change of Home Secretary was all it took, and Jacqui Smith must have been one of the worst Home Secretaries ever, certainly one of the most censorious.  She banned other people who were controversial as well, Wilders just got the most attention from the press because he's an MEP.  

    Given that the attitude of the state became markedly less censorious when she was booted, I don't think the simple act of refusing a visa to one non-EU citizen is grounds for too much pessimism.  My attitude is that the jury is still out on this government, although I do think they should have given him an entry visa.  He'd only make a twat of himself anyway.   Smiley


    Again, the party in power is irrelevant as the UK state has already established their prerogative to censor speech and violate all sorts of other natural rights people possess. Forget about Naik and Wilders. The UK enforces censorship on its own citizenry. I'd name some  examples over the last few decades up to recent years, but I simply don't have the time. Nick Griffin is a notable recent example though.

    Now certain people in government may be more censorship happy than others, that much is true-- but the problem is that the conditions have been set to allow such people to do so once they are in office.

    fuck you
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #50 - June 18, 2010, 11:21 PM

    In any case he openly supports assassinating innocent people,

    Wait. It's been a while since I watched his video about apostasy.
    Was he *explaining* the reason behind the punishment? or was he advocating its implementation?
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #51 - June 18, 2010, 11:25 PM

    Quote
    Again, the party in power is irrelevant as the UK state has already established their prerogative to censor speech and violate all sorts of other natural rights people possess. Forget about Naik and Wilders. The UK enforces censorship on its own citizenry. I'd name some  examples over the last few decades up to recent years, but I simply don't have the time. Nick Griffin is a notable recent example though.

    Now certain people in government may be more censorship happy than others, that much is true-- but the problem is that the conditions have been set to allow such people to do so once they are in office.


    That's always been the way though.  Your country, with its First Amendment, is the exception not the rule.  The UK is not far behind the US when it comes to freedom of speech - compare it to Ireland with its stupid blasphemy law, or Germany with its criminalisation of Holocaust denial.  And that's just in Europe, imagine how bad other parts of the world are.  We all have to play the hand we're dealt, and we don't all get a hand with an ace like the First Amendment included.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #52 - June 18, 2010, 11:28 PM

    I know, but it still pisses me off.  Smiley I wish people elsewhere in the world had something like the First Amendment to the US Constitution. Then again, I wish people here would do something to stop my government from trampling on everyone's rights here and abroad.

    fuck you
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #53 - June 18, 2010, 11:41 PM

    European politicians with their statist, authoritarian "hate speech" statutes can suck my dick. Notice how easily and quickly these hate speech statutes have been cited in an attempt to silence criticism of Islam.

    That's BS really. Draw Mo cartoons went out all over the world, the danish published the newspapers, there's a lot of criticism all over the world, so what 'stopping the critisim' are you talking about? That all arabs can't be called ragheads without you being in trouble?

    Its easy for you to think that hate speech should be allowed, being a white guy and everything, but being a brown guy and a minority in most of the western countries, I do not want people saying things that will generate prejudice and hatred towards me based on my looks/ethnicity, and I definitely think that the laws that europeans have set are on the spot about this.
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #54 - June 18, 2010, 11:42 PM

    What comments by Zakir Naik are you referring to specifically? And if you could give as much context as possible it would certainly be appreciated.

    "every Muslim should be a terrorist", Supporting the death penalty for apostates, not denouncing Osama Bin laden actions, "If you ask my view, if given the truth, if he is fighting the enemies of Islam, I am for him" the list goes on..


    Quote
    Irrelevant. Rights are rights, justice is justice.

    What rights has Zakir Naik lost. He's not even a British citizen  Huh?

    Quote
    Here's another option-- don't rely on the state to fix these problems, being that its primary objective is to maintain itself and expand its powers, and when it does try fixing social problems often fucks up things even worse.

    I think the state has other functions too, and protecting its citizens is one of them.

    Quote
    Messages can be sent and Islam openly & objectively criticized without your MPs and government ministers lifting a fucking finger. Of course that requires people to both recognize and act on their individual and collective autonomy.

    Like I said, that would be great if religion wasnt so heavily protected here.

    Quote
    LAST POINT: I recognize that denying Naik a visa may not in itself be a violation of the right of free speech, since it could be credibly argued the UK simply exercised is national sovereignty in preventing his entry into the country, just as I don't have to let him in my house to preach bullshit. But what I'm talking about is about more than Naik and Wilders-- it's the fact that your government long ago decided it could violate the right to free speech whenever it deemed necessary, and the people have done nothing to challenge it. The US has its own problems of the people allowing the state to violate people's rights, that are arguably worse than the UK, but most of the time it's not the freedom of speech, except in times of war.

    Not sure, particularly when it come to freedom of speech, I think you can get away with more in the US.  But I dont really care.  The UK needs to do something about extremism quick smart.  Any action that shows they are taking it seriously is something I welcome with open arms.  Religion has gotton away with so much for so long.

    Quote
    Again, the party in power is irrelevant as the UK state has already established their prerogative to censor speech and violate all sorts of other natural rights people possess. Forget about Naik and Wilders. The UK enforces censorship on its own citizenry. I'd name some  examples over the last few decades up to recent years, but I simply don't have the time. Nick Griffin is a notable recent example though.

    Now certain people in government may be more censorship happy than others, that much is true-- but the problem is that the conditions have been set to allow such people to do so once they are in office.

    Perhaps, like I said earlier, the government was wrong to disallow Wilders - rightly or wrongly, UK is a nanny state when compared to the US.  I was only discussing why I was glad the UK gov stood up to Islam for a change without fear of recrimination

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  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #55 - June 18, 2010, 11:47 PM

    That's BS really. Draw Mo cartoons went out all over the world, the danish published the newspapers, there's a lot of criticism all over the world, so what 'stopping the critisim' are you talking about? That all arabs can't be called ragheads without you being in trouble?

    Its easy for you to think that hate speech should be allowed, being a white guy and everything, but being a brown guy and a minority in most of the western countries, I do not want people saying things that will generate prejudice and hatred towards me based on my looks/ethnicity, and I definitely think that the laws that europeans have set are on the spot about this.


    Yeah a White guy with a Muslim name who grew up in a working-class community were there were no other people of Muslim or Arab background around-- oh, yeah, that was a breeze, I've never experienced discrimination once in my life. Roll Eyes Oh, except for all the times I did, including when the Feds came to my apartment after 9/11.

    I don't give a damn that you think that allowing the state to violate someone's rights will make things easier on you or anyone else. You really want to live in a free society? Then you better man the fuck up and realize that having a truly free society has its downsides too (like racist assholes freely running around and spreading their message) and you should be prepared to accept them.

    fuck you
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #56 - June 18, 2010, 11:49 PM

    In any case he openly supports assassinating innocent people, alowing people like him to spew their hatred sends out the wrong message.  Now at least muslims will discuss it, and other future Muslim roadshow wannabe's will think twice about the things they say before their brain-starved public.

    +1 to that wholeheartedly.
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #57 - June 18, 2010, 11:50 PM

    So....you guys are gonna send him back to India....bastards!

    "A good man is so hard to find but a hard man is so good to find"
  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #58 - June 18, 2010, 11:53 PM

    Wait. It's been a while since I watched his video about apostasy.
    Was he *explaining* the reason behind the punishment? or was he advocating its implementation?

    From what I remember, he said it in such a nonchalent way that he didnt believe murdering someone for their lack of belief was a problem.  And he used verses to support his stance.  

    Now I am not saying he is in Taliban territory, but if you read my last post, you'll come to the conclusion that Nalaik is no pacifist  grin12

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  • Re: Zakir Naik: Banned from UK
     Reply #59 - June 19, 2010, 12:01 AM

    Then you better man the fuck up and realize that having a truly free society has its downsides too (like racist assholes freely running around and spreading their message) and you should be prepared to accept them.

    We have plenty of racist people here, thats not why Zakir was banned. 

    He is revered second only to Muhammed amongst the Desi's here. 

    He has the power to radicalise outcasts in the Muslims community.   With some of the things he has said, and I genuinely think he believes, I have no desire for him to do that.

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