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Theme Changer

 Topic: Future of religion

 (Read 16835 times)
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  • Future of religion
     OP - June 18, 2010, 03:17 AM

    Morpheus about to go deep inshallah  Smiley

    not long ago i became a very religious man. as any of you on this forum who read my story knows i had a brief period where i converted to islam, and then reverted to christianity.

    i have realised though that one can not be a christian without actually beliving in the bible and jesus and all that stuff, so i dont consider myself a xtian anymore. same goes for any religion i suppose.

    as im looking back on it all im thinkin what the hell happened to me? did i suffer from some kind of psychosis or something?
    i didnt come from a religious family or a religious community. well i had been shrooming a lot during the past few years..
    im caught thinking maybe thats what led me to this strange and bizarre journey.

    anyhow i now can add religion as a closed chapter in my life, although my spiritual search will probably never end.
    but at least now i am confident that religion is nothing but mans desperate attempt of bringing meaning and order to the world, often through made up stories for those who wish to believe.

    im thinking - doubt the man who says he has all the answers (jesus, muhammed etc..)
    which now made me thinking - never trust a dude with a full beard.

    religion has been with us through thousands of years, giving us the indication that humans need something to believe in.
    why is that? why cant we just go through our lives like the animals just eating, sleeping and fucking our worries away?
    in what way is our religious mindfuck going to help us develop as a race? because to me, it seems like its all a
    big damn circle of islamic terrorists, pedophile priests, jehowas maniacs, jewish land disputes and so on.

    surely religion is not ALL bad, but as a good friend used to say: You dont need religion to be a good person!
    i mean i think weve got the message through the thousands of years of religion.
    and even better we do have a brain to think for ourselves whether something is wrong or right.
    and if not even thats working you still have the law (although not perfect of course) to give you a hint about what
    might be a preferable way to go about things.

    so now i wish to ask my fellow CEMB members: What do you think is the future of all religion?
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #1 - June 18, 2010, 12:33 PM

    Accept me as a prophet and the future of religion will be bright. I promise! cool2

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #2 - June 18, 2010, 12:38 PM

    Morpheus about to go deep inshallah  Smiley

    not long ago i became a very religious man. as any of you on this forum who read my story knows i had a brief period where i converted to islam, and then reverted to christianity.

    i have realised though that one can not be a christian without actually beliving in the bible and jesus and all that stuff, so i dont consider myself a xtian anymore. same goes for any religion i suppose.

    as im looking back on it all im thinkin what the hell happened to me? did i suffer from some kind of psychosis or something?
    i didnt come from a religious family or a religious community. well i had been shrooming a lot during the past few years..
    im caught thinking maybe thats what led me to this strange and bizarre journey.

    There you go.  Cheesy  Too many shrooms will do weird things to your noggin.
    Oh and cows on shrooms are hilarious.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #3 - June 19, 2010, 06:50 AM

    Religion as a communal experience will probably never go away, too many people have too much invested in the social structures that give them comfort, a sense of belonging etc. But I think as different peoples come into contact with each other, while some will feel threatened and defensive, becoming more insulated and extremist/tribalistic, but I hope that more people will gain wider perspectives about how other people live, and through the exchange of ideas (on the internet, and offline as well), become more pluralistic in their views, with secular politics becoming more understood as necessary for peaceful societies. There will probably also be more of a shift from Abrahamic monotheism to other forms of religion.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #4 - June 19, 2010, 07:00 AM

    There you go.  Cheesy  Too many shrooms will do weird things to your noggin.
    Oh and cows on shrooms are hilarious.

     Cheesy

    ...
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #5 - June 19, 2010, 08:29 AM

    Quote
    "What do you think is the future of all religion?"


    Honestly, and this is my real honest answer.
    I have no idea. People are complete weirdos, and there is no way of knowing. If you went back in time and told Marcus Aurelius that in the near future the people of the Western Roman Empire would worship a dead Jew and the people of the eastern empire would worship the ramblings of a mad Arab based in large part on the ramblings of that dead jew he would probably think you were nuts.

    Who knows what crazy stuff people will come up with next. Maybe the Mormons will rule the world and be locked in constant battle with the Scientologists and Nostradamists, and Lia Eden will be the great prophet of Asia, people will riot if you insult her, belief in Lia Eden will be a sign that you are a good person, and her followers will pray facing Borobudur.....crazier stuff has happened.

    All Hail her greatness, the coming of Salamullah is nigh


    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #6 - June 19, 2010, 09:52 AM



    Grin
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #7 - June 19, 2010, 12:31 PM

    I dunno but there already seems to be a move towards living by principles rather than upholding laws which is a good thing. Nurcholish Madjid has been doing some interesting things in Indonesia. He's basically going through the Qur'an and chucking out all the bad bits on the basis of "the reasoning behind the judgement" (ma'nat al-hukm). So basically everything can be chucked because the reasoning, i.e. the principles, are justice etc. so while the laws may have been cool in their time, enforcing those same laws would created injustice today. Or something. I like this Nurcholish geezer and think he's onto something.

    There's also movements afoot in other religions. In Buddhism you have Stephen Batchelor who looks at what is intrinsically Buddhist, i.e. what are the teachings of Buddha that don't derive from pre-Buddhist India? What's unique about Buddha's teachings? The Noble 8-fold Path is pretty ace and grouse, to use two 80s-isms, but then you have all this weird shit about reincarnation and shit. Well, says Batchelor, that's cause Buddha was teaching in an Indian milieu so those teachings were just accepted by folks at that time. None of that is intrinsic to Buddhism, but the 8-fold path is. You don't need to believe in an afterlife to follow  a set of principles. Just doing so cause it provides a framework for good living is enough.

    I think it's inevitable that the ugly side of religion will whither away and maybe something more sunshiney and cute will emerge from the ashes.

    And Allah knows best.


    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #8 - June 19, 2010, 01:06 PM

    Religion will never go away. The need for a superstitious belief in the unknown is deeply rooted in the human psyche. For some strange reason this trait emerged at some point in our evolution and now we are stuck with it.

    There will always be people that prefer to stay in a child-like frame of mind - fearful of the unknown and wanting to cling to anything that gives them a warm fuzzy feeling. A comfort blanket if you will.

    The good news - even if it will never go away, it's hold over humankind is definitely weakening in many areas. Once upon a time religion was the be all and end all. No one could say anything about it. It permeated every aspect of your life and the top dogs (clergy) were idolized.

    These days people are more technology and science oriented. TV and internet are the two biggest banes of religion, especially the internet. With so much information at our fingertips and almost instantaneous updates from the furthest parts of the world.... there's not much that goes unnoticed.

    The truth is out there! (sorry for the corny line) but yeah it is, even people can be bothered. And as we see in forum like this, there are many people who are interested in checking out the facts for themselves.

    No religion lasts forever. It either dies out or its followers transform it into to something more palatable for the modern world. In a few hundred years other strange religions and beliefs will replace the ones we know.

  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #9 - June 19, 2010, 02:33 PM

    Tough question, but quick answer: it will be around for many years to come, but for a clearer answer one would need to look at the latest trends & data because I think the Internet and education is changing things dramatically more than ever before in how people think.

    Quote
    surely religion is not ALL bad


    I don't think all religions are bad. I think religion has an evolutionary utility in people (for good and bad). In fact I think it is unfair to compare all religions together. Some definitely are a lot better than others in their memeplexes. For this reason I'm very supportive of benign religions like certain Anglican/Baptist Churches in the UK and Buddhism who instill good morals/high EQ in people. Quite a controversial thing to say ... but, there you go, you wanted an opinion of a CEMB member.
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #10 - June 19, 2010, 03:17 PM

    For this reason I'm very supportive of benign religions like certain Anglican/Baptist Churches in the UK and Buddhism who instill good morals/high EQ in people. Quite a controversial thing to say ... but, there you go, you wanted an opinion of a CEMB member.

    What do you mean by "support" them? like you want them to expand? or you don't have a problem with them?
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #11 - June 19, 2010, 11:11 PM

    To cut a very, very long answer short:
    - I think certain sects of Christianity are high EQ and productive in what they preach while being benign to apostates.
    - Therefore, in terms of expansion, if they are expanding by taking the place of faith from other more backwards religions, then I do promote that.
    - In terms of instilling good moral compasses into religious and non-religion students, I support that via Christian-based-faith-schools in the UK. I am however very pro-Evolution and feel science should not be censored. Also, it is the culture/past history that gets transferred to, something missing a bit in the UK I think.
    - Furthermore, I'd even go as far to say there are certain sects of Christianity I don't approved of and would wish such sects would move into the more better ones.

    Religions do have utility, and for those that need it in the population, I think it is best they are provided with the best form.
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #12 - June 19, 2010, 11:13 PM

    Btw, there is always the opportunity for Islam to reform itself, but I really don't see this happening. Then again ... never say never ...
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #13 - June 20, 2010, 01:03 AM

    Science, education, information flow and criticism will eventually kill religion.

    Instead of the scripture being the ultimate, literal authority, it will eventually be subjected to a more relaxed, metaphorical interpretation. From there it is a short way to those who believe without relying on the scriptures at all, and then you soon get cultural religious without faith.

    I think these steps tend to happen in a generation shift and not so often in the individual, at least not in the general population.

    This is what happened to Christianity, as in Europe most people are cultural Christians and those who are religious often accept e.g the theory of evolution even though it directly contradicts the Bible.

    In the US a much larger proportion of the population is still locked in the strict, literal part of the religion, but they are erroding away. According to polls, those who identify themselves as atheists or non-religious was significantly higher today compared to only 20 years ago (at least that's how I remember it).

    I think the same will happen to Islam. I believe it is inevitable.
    The question is only how fast.

    Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
       The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #14 - June 20, 2010, 01:06 AM

    - Therefore, in terms of expansion, if they are expanding by taking the place of faith from other more backwards religions, then I do promote that.

    I'm with you on that one. Not sure I would like to see more faith schools though.
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #15 - June 20, 2010, 02:11 AM

    In the US a much larger proportion of the population is still locked in the strict, literal part of the religion, but they are erroding away. According to polls, those who identify themselves as atheists or non-religious was significantly higher today compared to only 20 years ago (at least that's how I remember it).

    I think the same will happen to Islam. I believe it is inevitable.
    The question is only how fast.

    Another good post - remind me to stick you up for poster of the month Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #16 - June 20, 2010, 02:15 AM

    +1

    fuck you
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #17 - June 20, 2010, 10:29 AM

    Sweet!  dance

    Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
       The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #18 - June 20, 2010, 01:19 PM

    Science, education, information flow and criticism will eventually kill religion.

    Instead of the scripture being the ultimate, literal authority, it will eventually be subjected to a more relaxed, metaphorical interpretation. From there it is a short way to those who believe without relying on the scriptures at all, and then you soon get cultural religious without faith.

    I think these steps tend to happen in a generation shift and not so often in the individual, at least not in the general population.

    This is what happened to Christianity, as in Europe most people are cultural Christians and those who are religious often accept e.g the theory of evolution even though it directly contradicts the Bible.

    In the US a much larger proportion of the population is still locked in the strict, literal part of the religion, but they are erroding away. According to polls, those who identify themselves as atheists or non-religious was significantly higher today compared to only 20 years ago (at least that's how I remember it).

    I think the same will happen to Islam. I believe it is inevitable.
    The question is only how fast.

     

     bounce clap Great perception,logically should become the truth eventually.Sooner the better!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #19 - June 21, 2010, 08:33 AM

    Science, education, information flow and criticism will eventually kill religion.



    "Science, education, information flow and criticism" is religion's Kryponite.  It is something that must be used and defended from the religious constantly. For while it has great effect on many, it has no power against those who have completely denounced reason already....and they will do anything to keep that weapon from you.

    Quote
    If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed

    -Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi (865 - 925)


    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #20 - June 21, 2010, 12:13 PM

    Quote
    If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed

    -Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi (865 - 925)

     clap clap

    Wow! coming from a man in the 9th century! Truth always prevails provided you wake up from your stupor.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #21 - June 21, 2010, 08:34 PM

    I don't think it's a question of whether or not various existing religions will exist in the future -- they almost certainly won't. Predominantly because scientific advancement is erasing most of the basis we have for religion ("miracles," visions, and the like are easily explained away, talking snakes considered absurd), and especially because of the widespread acessability of this scientific information. More fundamentally however, religion is in increasing conflict with the liberal western ideals that are present in modern society. Sexual tolerance, gender equality and other things that are considered fundamental human rights are at odds with the abrahamic religions, and naturually the first step is for religious adherents to offer a watered-down account of their religion, though when it is realized that so many changes have to be made to the religion in order for it to become palatable, it will be abandoned.

    Anyway I think the greater question is, where do we go from here? It will be virtually impossible in this day and age for a new "Prophet" to convince more than a small cult of people that s/he has been sent by some sort of divine being, as the burden of proof would be too great. Also, with the absence of religion, morality itself falls apart for the most part -- it's hard to justify certain acts as being morally wrong in the absence of an absolute moral arbitrator. At first we may feel that we can decide that some things are just naturally right and wrong, though upon reflection we often feel this way because of morality that we've learned from society, which in turn has been learned from religion. The theory of subjective morality has been prevalent in western philosophy since Nietzsche (and even before), and thus far hasn't been conclusively thwarted. If we don't take moral cues from religion, or at least our prejudices from our religious hangovers, where do we get them from?
     
    Certain values have supplanted religion in some cases. I wrote an article for a magazine about how environmentalism and liberal values have supplanted religion in some cases, and how this is a dangerous path to take (I can post the link here if anyone is interested.)

    So the future of religion, I think, will be the adherence to various secular schools of ethics, which will become almost doctrinal to some. Life is a scary business, in the face of nihilism. Also when you have to think all the time. Wink
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #22 - June 23, 2010, 06:30 AM

    Quote from: zoomi
    I don't think it's a question of whether or not various existing religions will exist in the future -- they almost certainly won't. Predominantly because scientific advancement is erasing most of the basis we have for religion ("miracles," visions, and the like are easily explained away, talking snakes considered absurd), and especially because of the widespread acessability of this scientific information. More fundamentally however, religion is in increasing conflict with the liberal western ideals that are present in modern society. Sexual tolerance, gender equality and other things that are considered fundamental human rights are at odds with the abrahamic religions, and naturually the first step is for religious adherents to offer a watered-down account of their religion, though when it is realized that so many changes have to be made to the religion in order for it to become palatable, it will be abandoned.

    I'm not sure there is much here that I agree with.

    You seem to assume that the key basis for existing religions is 'miracles'.  But I seem them more as attempts to answer a plethora of questions that we are faced with including origins, purpose, morality, choice, consciousness as well as apparent 'miracles'.  To the extent that most of these questions remained unanswered by science and possibly outside the realm of science altogether, I can't see any reason for religion to disappear any time soon.

    Secondly, as long as the possibility for God exists, I can't see how science will ever be able to discount miracles completely.  Because such a God would always have the ability to suspend the laws of nature - no matter how often they had successfully been able to explain away other 'strange' events.  Similarly, given that most of the key miracles to religions are historical rather than current ones, it's hard to see how science will be able to 'disprove' them.  If Muslims believe that Mohammed split the moon, it's hard to see how a current scientific experiment will be able to show them that he didn't.

    Thirdly, as far as I can see, evidence for a causal llink between greater education and the spread of scientific understanding and the fall in religious belief seems to be fairly thin.

    Fourthly, I'm not sure 'Western liberal ideals' are so universally appreciated, even by those who live in the West.  The breakdown of marriages and families seems to be causing quite a few people to ask if those ideals are really so ideal.

    Quote from: zoomi
    Anyway I think the greater question is, where do we go from here? It will be virtually impossible in this day and age for a new "Prophet" to convince more than a small cult of people that s/he has been sent by some sort of divine being, as the burden of proof would be too great.

    I'm not sure that this is true either but even if it were, I could see pretty much unlimited scope for 'secular' prophets.  If science has shown us that there is no true purpose or morality for humans and if these are the things that people use to guide their choices then the fundamental basis for people's lives is no longer reason at all (although that might tell us 'how' to interact with the world around us, it wouldn't tell us why to do so).  Any 'prophet's' message of purpose has only to gel with what you feel inside to be 'convincing'.  That might be nationalism, socialism, communism, environmentalism, objectivism or something altogether new.  And if, in this new world, faith becomes synonymous with 'feel' anyway, I see no reason why the religions shouldn't continue to be part of the mix.

    Quote from: zoomi
    So the future of religion, I think, will be the adherence to various secular schools of ethics, which will become almost doctrinal to some. Life is a scary business, in the face of nihilism. Also when you have to think all the time.

    If thinking has become redundant to the life choices that matter to you anyway, why bother.  Just 'follow your heart'.

    Cheers,
    sparky
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #23 - June 23, 2010, 07:25 AM

    Morals without religion......

    Reason mixed with Empathy.

    TaDa.

    Quote
    it's hard to justify certain acts as being morally wrong in the absence of an absolute moral arbitrator.


    Good. Most of the acts that are judged as morally wrong by the absolute moral arbitrator are not morally wrong.....while at the same time promoting 'morals' which conflict with reason and empathy....therefor being immoral in actuallity.
    The absolute moral arbitrator, if nothing else, then becomes a regressive force.
    As Ibn al-Rawandi (827 – 911) said, 'If what the prophets announce corresponds to what the intellect decrees, then prophets are superfluous. If it contradicts what the intellect decrees, then one should not listen to them.'

    Or as Greg Graffin (1964 - ), zoology  Ph.D, college professor, and lead singer of the greatest Punk Rock band of all time said:
    "Progress and purpose help us realize
    We pass along a brighter faith even though it must be blind"

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #24 - June 23, 2010, 07:59 AM

    Way too vague.

    How can you have both?  If empathy tells you what to do, what is the place of reason?  If reason might tell you something different, what is the place of empathy? 

    Empathy means to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes - to feel what they feel.  If you can feel empathetic both towards the rapist and the rape victim, how does empathy tell you what is moral?  If there is some kind of objective truth that resolves this, how is empathy relevant?

    If a person does not empathise with someone who is suffering, does that make it ok for them to hurt the other person?

    In a situation where there is a choice between my suffering (or loss of pleasure) and someone else's, is it 'reasonable' to choose my own suffering over the vicarious experience of someone else's?

    Why should empathy be what a person should follow rather than 'whatever gives them the most pleasure' or some other principle?
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #25 - June 23, 2010, 08:18 AM

    Quote
    How can you have both? 


    How can you not? Anyone who is not using both is either a sociopath or an idiot. I am sure you use both in every moral decision you make.


    Quote
    If empathy tells you what to do, what is the place of reason?  If reason might tell you something different, what is the place of empathy?  



    Then you proceed to answer the question with the rest of your response.
    Each tempers and informs the other.
    Reason without empathy is heartless and cruel, empathy without reason is stupid and impractical.


    Tell me, since no religion I know of forbids slavery....how do we know slavery is wrong? (I'm assuming you think slavery is immoral). If we go strictly by scriptures, there is no moral reason to universally forbid slavery.

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #26 - June 23, 2010, 08:31 AM

    EDIT;
    I started a thread for those 2 questions (Which I just deleted on this one), so as not to crowd this thread

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #27 - June 23, 2010, 09:20 AM

    Quote from: Homer
    How can you not? Anyone who is not using both is either a sociopath or an idiot. I am sure you use both in every moral decision you make.


    The question isn't what you use but what reason (or feeling) there would be for calling any particular behaviour good or bad in the first place.  You assume that there is being a sociopath or an idiot is a bad thing.  Why should that be the case?

    Quote from: Homer
    Then you proceed to answer the question with the rest of your response.
    Each tempers and informs the other.
    Reason without empathy is heartless and cruel, empathy without reason is stupid and impractical.


    Which, like I said, is vague.  Each tempers and informs the other towards what?  You assume the a particular behaviour is moral and also assume the process for getting you there.  That isn't 'morality', it's guesswork.  The questions I posed do not solve your problem.  Why should either heartlessness or stupidity be a problem?
    Quote from: Homer
    Tell me, since no religion I know of forbids slavery....how do we know slavery is wrong? (I'm assuming you think slavery is immoral). If we go strictly by scriptures, there is no moral reason to universally forbid slavery.

    Which implies you are looking for a moral tom-tom rather than a moral compass.   If scriptures establish true moral principles, it is quite possible that those principles can be applied to conclude that slavery is immoral without requiring them to explicitly state that.

    You also seem to assume that something immoral should necessarily be made illegal.  I would see these as quite different questions.
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #28 - June 23, 2010, 07:24 PM

    That is just my point, 'morals', good/bad, ect are our own creation. They are not absolute and they do change.
    This is one reason I try to avoid using words like evil (in a universal sense), as one man's evil can be another's good (I am sure joe car bomber does not wake up and think..let's do some evil today).

    We, however, can create moral principles using our own intellect and empathy, and promote those principles into social standards.

    To answer your question then,the case has been made that idiocy or sociopathy is generally a 'bad' thing. As a society we have decided not to promote those things as virtues based on reason and empathy

    I know for a fact this is possible, because it is done.

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Future of religion
     Reply #29 - June 23, 2010, 09:54 PM

    You seem to assume that the key basis for existing religions is 'miracles'.  But I seem them more as attempts to answer a plethora of questions that we are faced with including origins, purpose, morality, choice, consciousness as well as apparent 'miracles'.  To the extent that most of these questions remained unanswered by science and possibly outside the realm of science altogether, I can't see any reason for religion to disappear any time soon.


    You midunderstood -- I don't claim that it is the key basis for the creation or adherence to religion (which I agree is driven by existential angst), rather when people realize that religion is based heavily on accepting these miracles. This will lead people to first question those parts of religion, and then religion itself.

    Secondly, as long as the possibility for God exists, I can't see how science will ever be able to discount miracles completely.  

    Yes but it also can't claim that we aren't all "brains in a vat," or that god is a spagetti monster. But when it comes to things like miracles, we have better explanations (i.e. most religious visions were seen by people with schitzophrenia or people who mistakenly ate some fungal ergot)


    Thirdly, as far as I can see, evidence for a causal llink between greater education and the spread of scientific understanding and the fall in religious belief seems to be fairly thin.

    It's rather large and obvious...are you serious?

    Fourthly, I'm not sure 'Western liberal ideals' are so universally appreciated, even by those who live in the West.  The breakdown of marriages and families seems to be causing quite a few people to ask if those ideals are really so ideal.


    I was more speaking in terms of liberal human rights rather than western ideals in the sense that one ought to have a good little consumer lifestyle and a 9-5 job porch, 2.5 kids, dog, etc.. (And don't get me started on those people who buck western ideals because of the breakdown of the family...thats for another thread).

    I'm not sure that this is true either but even if it were, I could see pretty much unlimited scope for 'secular' prophets.  If science has shown us that there is no true purpose or morality for humans and if these are the things that people use to guide their choices then the fundamental basis for people's lives is no longer reason at all (although that might tell us 'how' to interact with the world around us, it wouldn't tell us why to do so).  Any 'prophet's' message of purpose has only to gel with what you feel inside to be 'convincing'.  That might be nationalism, socialism, communism, environmentalism, objectivism or something altogether new.  


    I was speaking in the sense of divine prophets, not "secular" ones -- what do you think Hitler and Richards Dawkins are?


    If thinking has become redundant to the life choices that matter to you anyway, why bother.  Just 'follow your heart'.
     


    Essentially what subjecitivsm holds. But probably.

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