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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 192854 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #660 - June 22, 2010, 02:58 PM

    If you mean Monotheism - yes that is pretty clear. Though that in itself doesn't prove anything. But there is a great deal that is far less clear - in fact confusing!


    Hold on to the parts that are less confusing and turn away from those things that may create doubt.  Be protective of your faith, Hassan.  If you KNOW you are the type of person whose personal weakness is the temptation of disbelief, why would you place yourself in that position?  Should a former drunk hangout in a bar?

    What is wise about torturing people for all eternity? Roasting their skin off, but not letting them die, and replacing their skin so they may feel the agony again - over and over - without end?  You say truth stands out from error - and you ask me to think and be wise?  May I ask you the same thing?


    smh

    Stupidity is finding yourself in hell when you spent your whole life knowing the consequences of certain actions and did nothing to profit from the knowledge.  Wisdom is finding out the truth and adjusting your life according to it.

    Wait patiently? Cling on to faith - tooth and nail?


    Yes.

    Keep 'acting' like a Muslim and just ignore what my rational mind tells me?


    You know as well as I that Faith/Belief in the Unseen is part & parcel of God's requirements.

    Block my ears to anything that causes doubt?


    The one who is whispering those doubts in your ears does NOT have your best interests at heart.  You'd BETTER block it out.

    Wait... until God decides to wave his magic wand and faith will enter my heart once again.

    Will I have passed his test then?


    Only if you continue to believe and act according to that belief.  He will help ease your mind and make it easier for you to believe if you reach towards Him, but He's not going to believe for you.  You still will have to make the effort and live like a believer.  Stay that way until death claims you, and only then will you have passed.

    Is that what his ultimate concern for his creation is, then? To see who will cling on to faith - and ignore his rational mind?


    I cannot presume to know what the Ultimate Concern of the Lord of All the Worlds may be.  I suggest you leave such thoughts to others.  For you, it is the equivalent of a 'whiskey sour.'

    Because that quality can also be found amongst those who worship Jesus, Jehova, Vishnu, Ganesh and Guru Nanak.


    Where do you think they got it from???

    In the beginning they all knew the Truth and allowed themselves to go astray.  Are you suprised that you can still find the Truth among the ruins of the various faiths and ideologies?

    Is it the virtue of clinging on come hell or high water the reason God created us and gave us a mind - and the reason he will reward and torture?


    I suspect that it very well may be.  But I suggest you let those deeper questions go until you are stronger in Faith.

    Come home, Hassan.  Please.  Stop playing around. 

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #661 - June 22, 2010, 02:59 PM

    You don't know that. You are making an assumption.


    Oh?

    What other reason is there that you would take on (specifically black!) slaves after a discussion with me?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #662 - June 22, 2010, 03:06 PM

    You say morality is defined as a property of your god and your god is beyond logic.  Then you say he won't do something because it isn't "fair" or "reasonable". Those 2 statements are mutually exclusive.


    No, they are not when you consider that He is the one who set the rule and created the principle of it from scratch.

    Earlier you deliberately refused to understand that omniscience means that free will is impossible.


    Well, let me be perfectly clear:

    I reject any man-made hypothesis, that in order to work, requires a lessening of God's Omnipotence in the formula.

    This is the hallmark of a stupid, weak-minded human, and I have ZERO RESPECT for any such hypotheses, nor for those who wrought them, no matter what religion or non-religion thet profess to be a part of.

    Capisce?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #663 - June 22, 2010, 03:09 PM

    @ MRasheed

    May I just say that most of the members here are truly nice people.. if you find their tone with you changing then you can only blame yourself for your *slightly* arrogant attitude...

    I hope I didn't offend you.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #664 - June 22, 2010, 03:12 PM

    Now we're getting there. Logical isn't it. Now the discharge , as you put it, is only unclean if you put it somewhere it may cause a health problem. Agreed?


    This sounds like my old friend "Does a felled tree make a noise if there is no one around to hear it?" argument is peeking at me from around the corner.  lol

    Both sound waves as well as germs/filth are actually real physical world concepts and not mere philosophical abstracts.  Filth is filth, independent of any humans being around for it to harm.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #665 - June 22, 2010, 03:16 PM

    May I just say that most of the members here are truly nice people.. if you find their tone with you changing then you can only blame yourself for your *slightly* arrogant attitude...

    I hope I didn't offend you.


    Just the fact that you are attempting to look out for me with the "heads up" would prevent me from being offended, even if I was inclined in that direction.  I thank you.  My "arrogance" in the above post was possibly coming from the idea that I should hold certain humans above my Lord in intellect.  the unmistakable stench of paganism makes me start sharpening my scimitar.  lol  j/k

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #666 - June 22, 2010, 03:18 PM

    Just the fact that you are attempting to look out for me with the "heads up" would prevent me from being offended, even if I was inclined in that direction.  I thank you.  My "arrogance" in the above post was possibly coming from the idea that I should hold certain humans above my Lord in intellect.  the unmistakable stench of paganism makes me start sharpening my scimitar.  lol  j/k


     Cheesy i love these tidbits you throw around

    TREAD CAREFULLY
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #667 - June 22, 2010, 03:25 PM

    No, they are not when you consider that He is the one who set the rule and created the principle of it from scratch.

    Well, let me be perfectly clear:

    I reject any man-made hypothesis, that in order to work, requires a lessening of God's Omnipotence in the formula.

    This is the hallmark of a stupid, weak-minded human, and I have ZERO RESPECT for any such hypotheses, nor for those who wrought them, no matter what religion or non-religion thet profess to be a part of.

    Capisce?

    Assuming that by the word "omnipotence" you are talking about the concept of "omniscience", that means you reject the "hypothesis" of "freewill" - which would appear to be the hallmark of your "stupid weak mind". 
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #668 - June 22, 2010, 03:26 PM

    Just the fact that you are attempting to look out for me with the "heads up" would prevent me from being offended, even if I was inclined in that direction.  I thank you.  My "arrogance" in the above post was possibly coming from the idea that I should hold certain humans above my Lord in intellect.  the unmistakable stench of paganism makes me start sharpening my scimitar.  lol  j/k


    well, MRasheed, honestly, I don't see the point of either you or them keeping up this conversation...

    Your stance is: I know the Quran is true and so should you.
    Their stance is: We have no reason to believe the Quran to be the truth and the burden of proof lies upon you.

    By the way, most of them don't even believe in a Creator God, let alone believe in the Quranic God.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #669 - June 22, 2010, 03:37 PM

    OK maybe I'm thick but me not being omniscient doesn't that mean as far as I'm concerned free will exists? Since I don’t know where I will end up what does it matter?


    Makes sense to me.  Allowing limited-by-nature speculation into the exact nature of the power of an Omnipotent Being to throw you off your faith is crazy to me.  Just live your life.  You have NO WAY of understanding how He works/functions.  Let it go if the attempt to puzzle it out will actually doom you.  Why would you do that???

    I understand from God's perspective, if God knows beforehand what will happen then he can not change it.


    You mess up everytime you say He "can not."  He can.  Put it's part of the Game that He WON'T.

    Because at one point he should have known about the change...


    He knows ALL.

    ...which means during the change he did not know there would be a change.


    You're messing up again.  You are putting yourself in His shoes and limiting Him according to your understanding with is, of course, a human one.  Don't do that.

    If he is bound by time, things must happen transitionally.


    Why would He be?

    If he is outside time, then he sees all the way ahead, which is strange since things progress in time and space.


    There are lots of things that are strange to us.  We are NOT omniscient, and the Creation is not OUR baby.  We will NEVER understand it all.

    But this again means he can’t change it, which removes his omnipotence.


    There you go again.  It means nothing of t All it means is that YOU don't understand.  That's all.
     
    Which means in essence there is no free-will and things are predestined.


    smh

    The only way to make this work is to remove all logic and things become totally nonsensical and illogical.


    The only way to make it work is to start from scratch with your hypothesis, solidify the Facts that God is Eternal, Omnipotent and Omniscient and you are NOT.  Those are two completely unchangable, unalterable mathematical symbols for your formula that you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT CHANGE, and now try it again.

    My point is though; I don’t know any of this. As far as I’m concerned my actions are continuous and transitional, I don’t know for example what I will do in 20 years. Isn’t that the point? That I should be judged based on what I did and what I knew?


    Makes sense to me.

    To God this whole charade is pointless.  It all seems so unnecessary.


    You cannot presume to know the mind of God.  His reasons are His own.  Why do you think you could possibly understand what motivates a being like that?

    It’s already made up at one point and he has to abide by time itself.


    He promised that He wouldn't punish/reward until the Last Day, and that the adversary will have respite until that time to act out his part in the Great Game.  In that sense, He's limited by time but based upon a self-imposed limitation.  Other than that, time does not bind Him.

    And somehow time started existing at one point (since we live in time and space) and things were set from the get go, time moves forward. This God existed before time, and then is still outside time while time is moving. Yet time had a beginning and then time is eternal?


    Time isn't eternal.  It is very much a part of the physics of this universe.  In modern science theory it definitely had a beginning (anything before it is the syngularity that our physics cannot penetrate) and when this universe ends, time as we know it will stop.
     
    How can that which not exist at one point, then have a beginning and in the same instant be eternal, as in a loop?


    Time in its nature, functions like a watch, counting down the increments of itself as it progresses.  Outside of the time stream, nothing counts down to anything.  There is no time in the eternal realms by definition.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #670 - June 22, 2010, 03:41 PM

    Cheesy i love these tidbits you throw around

    TREAD CAREFULLY


    lol

    I know, I was just kidding.  Other than the joke, I would've had to acknowledge an "arrogance" that I do not feel.

    I do feel an "assurance" that what my Lord said is True though.  Perhaps that's what he sensed.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #671 - June 22, 2010, 03:46 PM

    Sorry, my internet connection went down so i couldn't respond to you, your link is very interesting, but it don't respond to my question cause it just tell that islam arrived  america before the columns did, what is possible, but in the article it says it arrived due to a great expedition of da'wa led in 1310 by the emir of maly or maybe even before in 1100, during an expedition, according that islam was created in the 600's even if it arrived in 1100 that mean god left them for about 5 hundred years without the qu'ran, anyway it is strange that after that islam was reveled not all the population knew about it directly, alot of people had to wait for many centuries after finding it, if god were smarter he would have sent mohamed in our period, so the with the modern medias the whole world could be informed directly, at least most of it.


    The point of the article to me, was that God did and does make sure that all of us will get a chance to hear the message and and have the opportunity to exercise our Free Will by either accepting it or rejecting it.  In the end, no one will be able to say: "But I didn't know!!!"

    Especially you lot, eh?  Wink

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #672 - June 22, 2010, 03:52 PM

    well, MRasheed, honestly, I don't see the point of either you or them keeping up this conversation...


    It's fun to me.  I LOVE talking about my faith.  I love the opportunity to strengthen my argument by bouncing it off of the philosophies and opinions of others.  Honestly I saw no better challenge than to engage with folk that I felt should have the strongest arguments against Islam: The Legendary Transgressors of Faith.

    This is my first time encountering them so the novelty and my enthusiasm hasn't yet waned.

    By the way, most of them don't even believe in a Creator God, let alone believe in the Quranic God.


    Ah, but they used to!  That's the important part.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #673 - June 22, 2010, 03:55 PM

    Sorry, my internet connection went down so i couldn't respond to you, your link is very interesting, but it don't respond to my question cause it just tell that islam arrived  america before the columns did, what is possible, but in the article it says it arrived due to a great expedition of da'wa led in 1310 by the emir of maly or maybe even before in 1100, during an expedition, according that islam was created in the 600's even if it arrived in 1100 that mean god left them for about 5 hundred years without the qu'ran, anyway it is strange that after that islam was reveled not all the population knew about it directly, alot of people had to wait for many centuries after finding it, if god were smarter he would have sent mohamed in our period, so the with the modern medias the whole world could be informed directly, at least most of it.


    I was waiting to see if Mrasheed would answer the question but the Islamic stance on people who never received the message of Islam is that they are "ahl-ul-fitrah" and that they will be given a special test on the day of judgement.

    Also what Islame said is correct regarding the 124,000 prophets. We are told that Allah has sent a prophet to all people. But as far as a nyone who has never received the message they are ahl-ul-fitrah.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #674 - June 22, 2010, 03:57 PM

    Assuming that by the word "omnipotence" you are talking about the concept of "omniscience", that means you reject the "hypothesis" of "freewill" - which would appear to be the hallmark of your "stupid weak mind".  


    My Lord said that I do indeed have Free Will.  And my Lord's Word, of course, is true, meaning that by definition, Free Will is not a mere hypothesis, but is undeniable fact.  Therefore, I do not reject Free Will.

    Please try to keep up.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #675 - June 22, 2010, 03:58 PM

    Stupidity is finding yourself in hell when you spent your whole life knowing the consequences of certain actions and did nothing to profit from the knowledge... You know the consequences


    Rasheed, what is the point of saying to me I need to have faith/believe or I will burn in Hell?

    That means nothing to me as I don't believe in Hell.

    You need to present some reasons WHY I should believe there is such a place and WHY the claims of Islam are true.

    Of course I already I know what Islam claims - but I have no good reason to believe it's true. On the contrary I have plenty of good reasons to believe it's not true.

    I also know what other religions claim - and I have no good reason to put the claims of Islam over their claims.

    I know that Islam claims that if I don't believe I will burn in Hell.

    I also know that Christianity claims if I don't accept Jesus Christ I will burn in Hell.

    I also know that unless I accept the teachings of Brahma Kumaris I will be destroyed and never attain eternal life in the coming Golden Age

    I also know if I don't accept the teachings of other religions, sects and cults I will not be saved and will suffer eternally.

    Can't you see that to say to me; "You should believe or you will burn" is exactly what a Christian etc... will say.

    Why should I believe your unsubstantiated claims over any others?

    Wisdom is finding out the truth and adjusting your life according to it.


    Then please tell me how do I recognise the truth?

    How do I know Islam is right and Christianity is wrong, for example?

    You know as well as I that Faith/Belief in the Unseen is part & parcel of God's requirements.


    Is it fair to ask man to believe in something he cannot see and has no irrefutable proof of - and then torture him eternally if he is unable to believe?

    Is believing in something without good reason - in fact, even though it contradicts reason - something to be admired and rewarded?

    The one who is whispering those doubts in your ears does NOT have your best interests at heart.  You'd BETTER block it out.


    No one is whispering doubts in my ears. My doubts came through taking a long hard - and rational - look at Islam.

    A Christian could say to you that you should block out your doubts about Christianity.

    What's the difference between your rejection of Christianity and my rejection of Islam, Rasheed?

    You still will have to make the effort and live like a believer.  Stay that way until death claims you, and only then will you have passed.


    You are asking me to act like a Muslim until I die - when I have no reason to. Can't you see how irrational and ridiculous it would be for me to spend the rest of my life pretending I believe something I find absurd?

    Tell me this honestly, Rashid - would you act like a Christian till you die - if I asked you?

    I cannot presume to know what the Ultimate Concern of the Lord of All the Worlds may be.  I suggest you leave such thoughts to others.


    That's not good enough. If something doesn't make sense and does not provide satisfactory answers then what reason do I have to believe it?

    Come home, Hassan.  Please.  Stop playing around.  


    You made me chuckle -  Afro
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #676 - June 22, 2010, 03:59 PM

    Haha! Man, you have to be using your own fallible human judgement in order to tell if the Quran is the infallible word of God or not.

    You say you don't trust your own fallible judgement completely, but in order to assert that the Quran is god's word, you have to rely on it.

    So how do you know what the Quran is if your judgement is only fallible?


    lol

    I have to take a risk somewhere.  Why not in the direction of my Lord?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #677 - June 22, 2010, 04:00 PM

    The point of the article to me, was that God did and does make sure that all of us will get a chance to hear the message and and have the opportunity to exercise our Free Will by either accepting it or rejecting it.  In the end, no one will be able to say: "But I didn't know!!!"

    Especially you lot, eh?  Wink

    I'am sure they are plenty of people who lived after islam and didn't knew about it, maybe eskimos, or anyone in very small country, that is sure. Cause it is impossible that islam was known everywhere, as soon as it has been created, but if it was really the only way to jannah, so that means practicing islam would be the reasons of our birth, so logically god wouldn't sent someone to earth without letting him a chance to know about islam, that mean if only one man didn't knew about the existence of islam after it's creation, islam is a fake religion. Tongue

    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
    "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. "
    --Buddha
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #678 - June 22, 2010, 04:02 PM

    lol

    I have to take a risk somewhere.  Why not in the direction of my Lord?


    You're taking a risk by going in the direction something you believe in?

    Risk would by definition mean going the other way. This is not a risk, it's a cakewalk.

    Come one take a walk on the wild side.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #679 - June 22, 2010, 04:02 PM

    My Lord said that I do indeed have Free Will.  And my Lord's Word, of course, is true, meaning that by definition, Free Will is not a mere hypothesis, but is undeniable fact.  Therefore, I do not reject Free Will.

    Please try to keep up.

    Where do you get the idea that your god gave you free will?

    Also you stated earlier that your god is limited by "reason" and "fairness".
    'He wouldn't do that because that isn't "fair"'... '"He wouldn't do that because it is "reasonable"' - these statements are nonsense if your god is beyond such concepts/these concepts are attributes of your god.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #680 - June 22, 2010, 04:07 PM

    @ Rasheed

    In Islam, blood is unclean weather it's menses blood or blood coming from a wound or something... so yeah, men with bleeding wounds are also unclean and can't pray/fast till they stop the bleeding (same with women having menses).


    Makes sense.

    1.)  blood = unclean

    2.) Any kind of discharge involving blood = unclean

    3.)  A woman during her monthly blood discharge = unclean (because she's covered in uncleanness)

    4.)  Having intercourse with such a woman = involving yourself in an unclean act (you are literally inserting yourself inside of unclean goo)

    In addition, it is a "hurt" to her, meaning you are probably causing her some kind of harm in the process.  Let her body finish.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #681 - June 22, 2010, 04:10 PM

    You're taking a risk by going in the direction something you believe in?

    Risk would by definition mean going the other way. This is not a risk, it's a cakewalk.

    Come one take a walk on the wild side.


    If it's such a cakewalk, why did you let it go?  Join me and I will complete your training.  With our combined strength we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the Internet.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #682 - June 22, 2010, 04:10 PM

    The only way to make it work is to start from scratch with your hypothesis, solidify the Facts that God is Eternal, Omnipotent and Omniscient and you are NOT.  Those are two completely unchangable, unalterable mathematical symbols for your formula that you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT CHANGE, and now try it again.


    You know, you could easily be any other kind of religionist, saying the things you do, about believing in things even though they are nonsensical.

    But I noticed that you did not, in any way, counter the arguments that BD presented and simply said that his fallible human intellect could not comprehend God. And then, of course, you simply spout of some white noise about God being Eternal, Omnipotent, etc., which in no way refutes the charge that God is incapable of doing what is logically impossible.

    But I'll repeat, you say that human reason is entirely fallible and therefore may not be used to judge conclusively in these matters. The problem is that reason is all we have!

    Your hypothesis that the Quran is God's Word can't even get off the ground without the assumption of the reliability of your own fallible human judgement.

    Therefore, given that even your views, and belief in the Qur'an are contingent upon mere human reason, don't you think it would be a good idea to make your beliefs open to being challenged by human reason, as there is every possibility that they are completely wrong, being contingent upon your fallible mind?

    You are in the exact same position that we are. Both we and you only have our human reason to make sense of all this. If you disregard reason and logic, then you disregard the very means by which you are even capable of truly knowing if the Qur'an is the word of God or not.

    Your rejection of human reason is entirely self-refuting. So, will you not use your intellect?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #683 - June 22, 2010, 04:11 PM

    Your actions would be both illegal and evil.  Evil not because slavery is evil as an institution, but because you personally would be doing it for @sshole reasons.  lol


    The thing is, if I married a woman because my enemy was in love with her and I just wanted to piss him off this would be an asshole reason to get married. But it doesn't make my actions or marriage illegal.

    You can't just say something is illegal (in Islam) because you don't like it. "Allah" says...

    "Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "(But) the things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are Al-Fawahish (great evil sins and every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse) whether committed openly or secretly, sins (of all kinds), unrighteous oppression, joining partners (in worship) with Allah for which He has given no authority, and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge."

    The reason people keep asking about the slavery thing is because you're a black american guy whose ancestors were victims of slavery. Now you have just said what the europeans did was "illegal and evil" when they were just doing the same thing Muslim slavers did.

    Now you seem to think that Muhammad and all the prophets were black. I get the feeling that you think slavery is ok as long as black people are the masters. (just like the guy in the wonder woman costume in the video I posted earlier)

    Is this true?

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #684 - June 22, 2010, 04:12 PM

    lol

    I have to take a risk somewhere.  Why not in the direction of my Lord?


  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #685 - June 22, 2010, 04:14 PM

    ...which in no way refutes the charge that God is incapable of doing what is logically impossible.


    Logically impossible to WHO???

    I know my Lord is Omnipotent and can thus do anything.  It is logical for an Omnipotent Being to be able to do anything.  If I don't get it it means, quite simply, that I'M not omniscient.

    What's the problem?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #686 - June 22, 2010, 04:15 PM



    lol

    That's cool!

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #687 - June 22, 2010, 04:17 PM

    I was waiting to see if Mrasheed would answer the question but the Islamic stance on people who never received the message of Islam is that they are "ahl-ul-fitrah" and that they will be given a special test on the day of judgement.

    Also what Islame said is correct regarding the 124,000 prophets. We are told that Allah has sent a prophet to all people. But as far as a nyone who has never received the message they are ahl-ul-fitrah.


    Although I never heard of Ahl-ul-fitrah before, but I always thought that the *Men of the Heights*, referred to in the Quran, are those who never received the message of the Quran IN ADDITIION to those who *sincerely* thought the Quran was not the truth.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #688 - June 22, 2010, 04:18 PM



    LOOOOOOL!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #689 - June 22, 2010, 04:19 PM

    Logically impossible to WHO???

    I know my Lord is Omnipotent and can thus do anything.  It is logical for an Omnipotent Being to be able to do anything.  If I don't get it it means, quite simply, that I'M not omniscient.

    What's the problem?


    How do you know your lord is omnipotent?  What evidence do you have?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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