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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 137459 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #30 - June 17, 2010, 08:20 PM

    Your parents didn't make you convert?


    No one can make you  convert.  That's impossible.  They can make you mindlessly follow ritual though.

    What were your religious beliefs before converting?


    Hm.  I would imagine it's whatever religion kids have.  I was a Muslim in its most literal form.   dance

    Who is specifically is bound for hell?


    Those who reject the One God and His message, whose bad deeds outweigh their good deeds and they die in that unrepentant state, of course.   Afro

    What parts of Islam make (or made) you go hmm?


    Well, I had reached a place of "is this real or not?" and wondering if I should embrace religion or have the illusion of freedom.  I decided to read Haykal's "Life of Muhammad" and the Qur'an and see if I still felt that way (on the fence).  Afterwards I felt cleansed and whole and blessed that I saw the Truth.

    Thus the Shahaddah.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #31 - June 17, 2010, 08:21 PM


    I think it is more tradition than a specific command.  I certainly don't remember Allah saying anything about it in the Book.


    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/093.sbt.html

    Volume 9, Book 93, Number 647:

        Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

        The Prophet said, "The painters of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection, and it will be said to them, 'Make alive what you have created."

    Volume 9, Book 93, Number 648:

        Narrated Abu Huraira:

        I heard the Prophet saying, "Allah said, 'Who are most unjust than those who try to create something like My creation? I challenge them to create even a smallest ant, a wheat grain or a barley grain.' "

    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/024.smt.html

    Book 024, Number 5270:

        'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verity the most grievously tormented people on the Day of Resurrection would be the painters of pictures. Ashajj (one of the narrators) in the hadith narrated by him did not make mention of the word" verity".

    Book 024, Number 5271:

        This haditli has been reported on the authority of Abu Mu'awiya through another chain of tranmitters (and the words are):" Verity, the most grievously tormented people amongest the denizens of Hall on the Day of Resurrection would be the painters of pictures. The rest of the hadith is the same.

    Book 024, Number 5272:


        Muslim b. Subaih reported: I was with Masriuq in the house which had the portrayals of Mary (hadrat Maryan). Thereupon Masriuq said: These are portraits of Kisra. I said: No, these are of Mary. Masruq said: I heard Abdullah b, Mas'ud as saying Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had said: The most grievously tormented people on the Day of Resurrection would be the painters of pictures. (Muslim said): I read this before Nasr b. 'Ali at-Jahdami and he read it before other narrators, the last one being Ibn Sa'id b Abl at Hasan that a person came to Ibn 'Abbas and said: I am the person who paints pictures; give me a religious verdict about them. He (Ibn 'Abbas) said to him: Come near me (still further). He came near him so much so that he placed his hand upon his head and said: I am going to narrate to yor what I heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I heard him say: All the painters who make pictures would be in the fire of Hell. The soul will be breathed in every picture prepared by him and it shall punish him in the Hell, and he (Ibn 'Abbas) said: If you have to do it at all, then paint the pictures of trees and lifeless things; and Nasr b. 'Ali confirmed it.

    Book 024, Number 5273:


        Anas b. Malik said: I was sitting with Ibn Ahbas when he gave religious verdicts but he did not say that it was Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) who had said that. However when a man said to him (Ibn 'Abbas): I am the painter of these pictures. Ibn 'Abbas said: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who painted pictures in the world would be compelled to breathe soal in them on the Day of Resurrection, but he would not be able to breathe soul (in them).

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #32 - June 17, 2010, 08:22 PM

    Welcome MRasheed. Smiley

    Cool website. Afro


    Thank you and thank you again!

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #33 - June 17, 2010, 08:22 PM

    Please watch this video and tell me what you think Smiley

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nAbbutsxf0
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #34 - June 17, 2010, 08:23 PM

    I believe you are hellbound.  (no offense intended.)

    None taken, but you are right, according to the Quran we certainly have got a one-way ticket to eternal damanation.  

    Yikes  Shocked

    Now that I have composed myself again, you mention that you're wife is a christian & you're an orthodox muslim (honest Islam in my opinion).  

    Do you always argue about this or have you come to some understanding about this?

    For example if she's a trinitarian, do you believe she is bound to hell also, and do you both agree that if its a boy, that he'll have a circumision (I assume you had one at 19 - OUCH!!).

    Also why do you think we are ex-muslims.

    Is it because

    i) we dont understand properly
    ii) we have misinterpretated it
    iii) we are hedonistic and dont want to control our urges
    iv) we have not ready enough
    v) we are thick

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #35 - June 17, 2010, 08:27 PM

    Seriously?

    So you believe in Hell then?


    Aye.  I believe in Justice, Clear Rules to Follow, and Obedience.  Both Heaven and Hell are parts of that package.

    You have a Christian wife. Some Muslims would say she is Hell-bound.


    She will of course have to answer for her belief in the Divine Sonship Doctrine, but she believes in doing good deeds and avoiding evil, and Allah DID say the Christian was one of His people.  In the end, our individual walk on the righteous path is our own.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #36 - June 17, 2010, 08:29 PM

    Hi and welcome MRasheed!

    It's nice to see a professional cartoonist among us here.

    I am big fan of comics/graphics novels and I love manga. I also like to doodle and draw stuff - animu style. Just for fun - mostly rip-offs.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #37 - June 17, 2010, 08:30 PM


    Well, I had reached a place of "is this real or not?" and wondering if I should embrace religion or have the illusion of freedom.  I decided to read Haykal's "Life of Muhammad" and the Qur'an and see if I still felt that way (on the fence).  Afterwards I felt cleansed and whole and blessed that I saw the Truth.

    Thus the Shahaddah.

    Then I also suggest getting hold of the book "Twenty-Three Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad" by Ali Dashti.  Smiley

    You can buy it or read it here on scribd: http://www.scribd.com/doc/7228141/Ali-Dashti-Twenty-Three-Years

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #38 - June 17, 2010, 08:32 PM

    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/093.sbt.html

    Volume 9, Book 93, Number 647:

        Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

        The Prophet said, etc...    


    When I said "the Book" I meant the Qur'an.  Can you show me the specific "THOU SHALT NOT DRAW PICTURES!!!" ayah that these hadith are supposed to support?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #39 - June 17, 2010, 08:32 PM

    In the end, our individual walk on the righteous path is our own.

    Cool!

    I worship god through atheism. Truly.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #40 - June 17, 2010, 08:34 PM

    outstanding video, hassan!   thnkyu for sharing

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #41 - June 17, 2010, 08:37 PM


    Those who reject the One God and His message


    Most of us, then. Do you think any of us do this out of choice? Do you think we choose to disbelieve, or do you realise that we just cannot force ourselves to believe in Allah?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #42 - June 17, 2010, 08:40 PM

    Aye.  I believe in Justice, Clear Rules to Follow, and Obedience.  Both Heaven and Hell are parts of that package.

    She will of course have to answer for her belief in the Divine Sonship Doctrine, but she believes in doing good deeds and avoiding evil, and Allah DID say the Christian was one of His people.  In the end, our individual walk on the righteous path is our own.


    Well no doubt you have explained Islam to her well and she can see your example - so if she still refuses to believe then she will go to Hell (according to Islam - of course imho Hell is an absurd myth and astonishing that anyone can believe in it and still call the God who created it; Just, Forgiving or Loving.)

    "Those who disbelieve amongst the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein for ever. They are the worst of creatures." (98:6)
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #43 - June 17, 2010, 08:41 PM

    When I said "the Book" I meant the Qur'an.  Can you show me the specific "THOU SHALT NOT DRAW PICTURES!!!" ayah that these hadith are supposed to support?



    OK so how do you explain that some hadiths were not corrupted but the majority were?

    I mean how do you pray? You got that from hadiths.

    How much do you pay in zakat?

    What about hajj? All acts are described in the hadith.

    What about fasting during ramadan? All the specifics are explained in the hadiths.

    Why did you say the shahada when that's not even in the Quran?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #44 - June 17, 2010, 08:41 PM

    Do you always argue about this or have you come to some understanding about this?

    We had a few arguments in the beginning while we were dating.  We decided to leave it alone (mutually) and maintain Peace.  The Prophet had a Christian wife afterall and never tried to convert her.  He was commanded to be very gentle with the People of the Book.  How could I be any less?

    ...do you both agree that if its a boy, that he'll have a circumision (I assume you had one at 19 - OUCH!!).


    The circumcision is the symbol of the male's allegiance to the One God established during Abraham's time, and yes we agree to it.  And fortunately my brother's and I were circumcised at the very young ages that kept us from having any memory of the event.  lol

    Also why do you think we are ex-muslims.


    I think you are exMuslims because you 1.) did not believe what Allah said was true 2.) allowed the behaviors/understandings of weak Muslims around you to influence how you saw the Way of Allah.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #45 - June 17, 2010, 08:43 PM

    Justice, Clear Rules


    Where is the justice in eternal torture?

    Where are these clear rules? In the Book of Mormon? Old Testament? New Testament? Baghvad Gita?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #46 - June 17, 2010, 08:43 PM

    Cool!

    I worship god through atheism. Truly.


    LOL!!!  omG...!  smh

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #47 - June 17, 2010, 08:45 PM

    The circumcision is the symbol of the male's allegiance to the One God established during Abraham's time, and yes we agree to it.  And fortunately my brother's and I were circumcised at the very young ages that kept us from having any memory of the event.  lol

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9938.0]

    oh and welcome Smiley
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #48 - June 17, 2010, 08:46 PM

    LOL!!!  omG...!  smh


    He's not kidding  Smiley

    And by the way, assalamu alaykum and welcome  Afro
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #49 - June 17, 2010, 08:47 PM

    btw how does your wife feel about you hitting her if the circumstances demand it? - as stated in the Qur'an.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #50 - June 17, 2010, 08:47 PM

    Most of us, then. Do you think any of us do this out of choice? Do you think we choose to disbelieve, or do you realise that we just cannot force ourselves to believe in Allah?


    My prince it is ALL about choice.  The choice to believe.  We are beings of flesh and it can be very hard sometimes to believe.  But that's why it's called Faith. Belief in the Unseen is part of the Great Game.  You win by believing, and you lose by rejecting.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #51 - June 17, 2010, 08:49 PM

    what do you think about evolution MRasheed?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #52 - June 17, 2010, 08:50 PM

    Rasheed.. strictly for arguement's sake, IF i had been dissuaded by "weak muslims", then why would THEY go to jannah and i wind up in hell fire?  If Allah predestined me, or even any good muslim for hell fire, whats the point? And if there WAS a point, why is so much haram on earth suddenly, and mysteriously halal in jannah?   Huh?

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #53 - June 17, 2010, 08:52 PM

    My prince it is ALL about choice.  The choice to believe.  We are beings of flesh and it can be very hard sometimes to believe.  But that's why it's called Faith. Belief in the Unseen is part of the Great Game.  You win by believing, and you lose by rejecting.


    So you're saying it's all our choice and Allah has no say or control over our choices? He's not that omnipotent? Or he does not want to meddle with our "free will", he wants to test us? So he can burn the majority of humans in hell for eternity? And that means he's merciful?
     Cheesy Sure, that makes loads of sense.

    Nice drawings, BTW.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #54 - June 17, 2010, 08:53 PM



    Thanks and the OT counts, Boo.   razz

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #55 - June 17, 2010, 08:53 PM

    My prince it is ALL about choice.  The choice to believe.  We are beings of flesh and it can be very hard sometimes to believe.  But that's why it's called Faith. Belief in the Unseen is part of the Great Game.  You win by believing, and you lose by rejecting.


    Can you choose to believe something you find unbelievable and unconvincing?

    Can you choose to believe Jesus is the son of God?

    Can you choose to believe Vishnu created the world?

    Can you choose to believe fairies live at the bottom of your garden?

    Is it justice to torture someone eternally for being unable to believe in a God who refuses to provide irrefutable evidence of his own existence - let alone which competing book and claim about him is really true?

    btw had your parents not converted and instead become devout Buddhists or Hindus - and you now spent your time offering milk to Ganesha - would you be going to Hell?

    Is the accident of birth a good basis to decide who deserves eternal torture?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #56 - June 17, 2010, 08:57 PM

    I think you are exMuslims because you 1.) did not believe what Allah said was true 2.) allowed the behaviors/understandings of weak Muslims around you to influence how you saw the Way of Allah.

    LOL. I think you have a lot to learn from this place then, if you really think like that. Hope you stick around, even if the debates get a bit heated. We have two other long-time posters who are Muslim. Wink

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #57 - June 17, 2010, 08:58 PM

    Well no doubt you have explained Islam to her well and she can see your example - so if she still refuses to believe then she will go to Hell (according to Islam)

     

    I cannot say that for sure.  It seems to me that because her good deeds will outweigh her bad and she believes in the God of abraham, He will forgive her the other part.  That's how it seems to ME, but of corse, Judgment is not my department.I think His Mercy will come into play and she will receive her reward.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #58 - June 17, 2010, 08:59 PM

    what do you think about evolution MRasheed?


    I think the evidence against it is stronger, particularly when it comes to the DNA strand.  Are you aware of this controversy?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #59 - June 17, 2010, 09:03 PM



    I cannot say that for sure.  It seems to me that because her good deeds will outweigh her bad and she believes in the God of abraham, He will forgive her the other part.  That's how it seems to ME, but of corse, Judgment is not my department.I think His Mercy will come into play and she will receive her reward.


    [4:48]
    God forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with God is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. --   Yusuf Ali

    Well, if your wife believes that Jesus is God and Allah does not forgive that sin, what do you think he would do?
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