Maajid Nawaz

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Maajid Nawaz
Reply #30 - December 22, 2015, 04:11 AM

Maajid Nawaz + a set of balls = Future Islamic Enlightenment leader

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
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Reply #31 - December 22, 2015, 06:01 AM

ExMuslimVlogGuy
Quote
Maajid Nawaz + a set of balls = Future Islamic Enlightenment leader

Would you have been convinced by Maajid Nawaz,, Zuhdi Jasser, Asra Nomanis (etc) version of Islam when you were a muslim? Do you know of any muslims who can be convinced by them?
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Reply #32 - December 22, 2015, 06:16 AM

I don't really pay attention to Zuhdi Jasser.. I don't think any Muslim takes him seriously at all.

I met Asra Nomani one time when I was a hardcore salafi.. She tried to shake my hand but I refused. I sat during her lecture, and even looking back at it today, it seemed like she was just complaining about her personal experiences about life. She was telling us how she got impregnated and got abandoned by her Muslim boyfriend. I just think she's very ineffective and ignorant.

Maajid Nawaz has potential to be taken seriously by Muslims if he becomes upfront about hadeeths and what the Qur'an says. I have seen glimpses of hope whenever he speaks.. He seems to know about Islam, but wants to protect Muslims, so he withholds not saying certain things to upset the Muslim crowd. In this way I think he's a politician.

That's why I say if Maajid Nawaz can stop dilly-dallying, he can gain momentum from Muslims who want to be progressive.. Until then, when he makes excuses for Muslims and creates terms like "Islamism" then he will not be taken seriously.. But he has potential.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #33 - December 22, 2015, 06:32 AM

Quote
I don't really pay attention to Zuhdi Jasser.. I don't think any Muslim takes him seriously at all.

Thats right.

Quote
I met Asra Nomani one time when I was a hardcore salafi.. She tried to shake my hand but refused. I sat during her lecture, and even looking back at it today, it seemed like she was just complaining about her personal experiences about life. She was telling us how she got impregnated and got abandoned by her Muslim boyfriend. I just think she's very ineffective and ignorant.

Ignorant is the word here. I often think that sometimes exmuslims can be ignorant, sometimes Maryam Namazie or Ayaan Hirsi, though they are ignorant in different ways. But Asra Nomani is very ignorant

Quote
Maajid Nawaz has potential to be taken seriously by Muslims if he becomes upfront about hadeeths and what the Qur'an says. I have seen glimpses of hope whenever he speaks.. He seems to know about Islam, but wants to protect Muslims, so he withholds not saying certain things to upset the Muslim crowd. In this way I think he's a politician.

That's why I say if Maajid Nawaz can stop dilly-dallying, he can gain momentum from Muslims who want to be progressive.. Until then, when he makes excuses for Muslims and creates terms like "Islamism" then he will not be taken seriously.. But he has potential.

Maajid Nawaz knows Islam very well, especially of those involved in the debate. He may indirectly affect muslims, but I really don't think there'll be many liberal muslims who'll be his fans a decade from now. It really is about the debate and how it moves forward, and what roles are played, thats what matters in the end.
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Reply #34 - December 22, 2015, 06:37 AM

Another problem is that Maajid Nawaz has affiliation with Usamah Hassan.. And Usamah Hassan was the first Muslim speaker in modern times to reveal that he believes in evolution.. He believes that Adam came from an ape.. This shocked the Muslim world in a way that he's become a freak-show not to be taken seriously in the Ummah.

So when Maajid is affiliated with him, it does damage to his credibility.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #35 - December 22, 2015, 06:52 AM

Quote
Another problem is that Maajid Nawaz has affiliation with Usamah Hassan.. And Usamah Hassan was the first Muslim speaker in modern times to reveal that he believes in evolution.. He believes that Adam came from an ape.. This shocked the Muslim world in a way that he's become a freak-show not to be taken seriously in the Ummah.

So when Maajid is affiliated with him, it does damage to his credibility.

His connection with Usama Hassan isn't the one that really does it, its his friendly connections and agreements with people that seek the end of Islam, and if ending it is not possible, change it completely. This is to alot of muslims makes him a munafiq, though they might avoid making takfir.

About human evolution, al-Ghazali might have supported something similar. I read a book or an article by him a long time ago, not sure about it though.
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Reply #36 - December 22, 2015, 01:21 PM

I know that some progressive Muslims believe in evolution not being incompatible with the Qur'an, though to be honest I see that as mental gymnastics. How does it fit in with the "thrown out of paradise" story, or the "we all came from this one couple" idea (which is fucked up in itself).
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Reply #37 - December 22, 2015, 02:23 PM

Quote from: David on December 21, 2015, 04:38 PM
You're getting subtle in your old age, Yeez, and vaguely comprehensible.

(Says a Cato fan.)

huh! what?? Whatcha Talkin Bout david you two guys go Swaziland ...........meet brother mighty libido King Mswati 111...

The brother rules over Swaziland . . . his people live
mostly in huts and survive on just the equivalent of 50
American cents a day but that is the least of his worries ....Uche Nworah

mighty libido King Mswati 111

Quote from: David on December 21, 2015, 04:38 PM
You're getting subtle in your old age, Yeez, a.............

Damn you.. .
I just looked in the mirror.. some of the hair are grey
where are the matches....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-eKWrmqh9U

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Reply #38 - December 22, 2015, 02:34 PM

There won’t be a “savior” moment in Islamic reform. Thinking that one individual or one organization can be the face of something as massive as a global shift in thought completely misses the point. The problem, or at least a huge part of the problem, lies in the fact that people have not been encouraged to think and conclude for themselves.
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Reply #39 - December 22, 2015, 02:53 PM

Quote from: Bolton34 on December 22, 2015, 01:21 PM
I know that some progressive Muslims believe in evolution not being incompatible with the Qur'an, though to be honest I see that as mental gymnastics. How does it fit in with the "thrown out of paradise" story, or the "we all came from this one couple" idea (which is fucked up in itself).

Exactly. That's what makes Usamah Hassan the freak show. His father is a staunch Sunni, which is the funny part.. And Usamah is a Muslim that tries to mix evolution and Islam. It just ends up looking retarded.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #40 - December 22, 2015, 03:51 PM

You know, it’s funny. I used to say the same thing when I first left Islam. I accused Usama Hasan of sounding silly and confused for ignoring what it so clearly states in the Qur’an.

That is the grip of literalism at play.

Catholicism, despite what it says in Genesis, accepts the validity of human evolution, with papal announcements stating that it is “virtually certain” that all living beings descended from a single organism. You don’t see anyone going off and claiming that they are not “True Catholics.”

Most of us, myself included, subscribed to an intrinsically literal interpretation of the Qur’an. That interpretation fails at the slightest introduction of rational scrutiny.

However, once you accept that a text composed in the 7th century for an audience (and by an author) that had no background in anything scientific, then you can begin to appreciate the symbolic significance behind the stories it contains.

I personally don’t think I have the patience to go through the Qur’an and attempt to reinterpret it to keep its myths relevant. But like any good story, it doesn’t have to be taken as literal truth in order to make it meaningful.

We salafis would have read the story of the Tortoise and the Hare and come away with the moral that all rabbits are arrogant and evil.
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Reply #41 - December 22, 2015, 04:02 PM

According to this there were Muslims arguing in favour of evolution in the past: review of Reading Darwin in Arabic
Quote
As Elshakry notes, enthusiasm for Darwin and his followers fell away after the Second World War and that enthusiasm turned to outright hostility from around 1970 onwards.

Podcast of Marwa Elshakry talking about the book: https://soundcloud.com/ottoman-history-podcast/darwin-in-arabic-marwa?in=ottoman-history-podcast/sets/ottoman-history-of-science

Which side are you on?
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Reply #42 - December 22, 2015, 04:08 PM

Right, I'm not criticizing Usamah Hassan myself personally for his beliefs.. I actually think he's better than the majority of Muslims.. But I'm more so talking about Muslims taking him seriously along with Maajid Nawaz..

I personally don't believe that you can reason with Muslims when it comes to mixing evolution and Islam in this modern day.

But who knows? The teaching of evolution might have a crucial role in reforming Islam or bringing it to the enlightenment..

I just think Usamah Hassan should apostate and go full atheist.. But that's my opinion.. He can believe what he wants..

And I took a scan through the evidence of Muslims believing in evolution. I looked at Usamah Hassan's sources and they all seemed too vague to me. Kind of like how Muslims say, "Science is described in the Quran."

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #43 - December 22, 2015, 04:46 PM

Quote
But who knows? The teaching of evolution might have a crucial role in reforming Islam or bringing it to the enlightenment..

The space for people who deny evolution by natural selection is getting smaller and smaller. I suspect that within a generation or two, Muslims will have moved beyond the need to defend the Adam and Eve story in the same way that they have moved beyond geocentricism. The evidence is overwhelming and from virtually every possible angle. To use their terminology, it’s mutawatir.

Quote
I just think Usamah Hassan should apostate and go full atheist.. But that's my opinion.. He can believe what he wants..

Well, that’s the thing. We’ve been so trained to imagine this false dichotomy: either Islam and the Qur’an are literally and entirely true, or there is no chance at any sort of “god” whatsoever and everyone should be an atheist.

I am personally not an atheist, but agnostic. (I use that word as an adjective rather than as a noun.) To be clear, I have no faith in the plausibility of that celestial tyrant imagined to rule from above a throne perched upon some archaic idea of seven heavens, but if there is anything that might fit the definition of “god,” then it is beyond our ability to fathom. And who am I to claim to know all of the realities of the unknown. I try not to spend too much time thinking about it. It’s bad for you, like pondering infinity.

(We) Muslims were just so behind the curve when it comes to backward literalism that it’s hard for us to imagine what might lie beyond it. If someone like Usama Hassan (or even our own Hassan) says that they believe in “something,” I can sorta dig it. It’s not that Monty Python bearded dude floating up in the clouds they are talking about. It’s something you’d be wasting your time on trying to “prove” empirically.
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Reply #44 - December 22, 2015, 04:59 PM

"Well, that’s the thing. We’ve been so trained to imagine this false dichotomy: either Islam and the Qur’an are literally and entirely true, or there is no chance at any sort of “god” whatsoever and everyone should be an atheist."

I classify as an agnostic atheist as well. I think many people do.. A false dichotomy that is also going around is that just because you became an atheist, everyone assumes that you're a "bigoted arrogant atheist that can prove god does not exist." That also is not true.

My view on Usamah Hassan is that the man is either really ahead of his time, or he's going to sink.

Maybe in a generation or two, Muslims will move on and accept evolution.. But as long as they have Creationists backing up their theories, they will be encouraged to believe that we were created from "mud, sperm, and a clot of blood."

Creationists, not even just talking about religious Creationists, but Creationists in general. They argue for the existence of God without religion.. I think those people are out of their minds..

I don't mind the "Deist" way of thinking, but to sit there for hours and try to convince me there's a god.. That's what really annoys me.

We should all be focused living in harmony instead of all this debate.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #45 - December 22, 2015, 05:03 PM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 22, 2015, 04:08 PM
..............

I just think Usamah Hassan should apostate and go full atheist.. But that's my opinion.. He can believe what he wants..

..

off course.. "He can believe what he wants.."., that is what you all atheists say.....

OFF CURSE

...You ATHEIST SNAKES .. ATHEIST JINN..... no... ATHEIST JINNS.. you guys will never like believers .. you have memes in your brains.. .. Unlike our memes in our brains such as Voodoo dolls .. allah doll...cloud shapes.. spaghetti monsters .. YOUR MEMES ARE DANGEROUS ..

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Reply #46 - December 22, 2015, 05:11 PM

atheist jinn

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #47 - December 22, 2015, 05:17 PM

Quote
My view on Usamah Hassan is that the man is either really ahead of his time, or he's going to sink.

See. I don't know if I agree with you on this, man. So long as the man is staying true to what he actually believes, then there really is no risk of him "sinking." The minute he tries to concern himself with telling other people what they have to believe, that is when he will likely fail. Or, if he is claiming to still be a Muslim, or claiming to believe this or that, just so that he can "reform Islam from within," then that is where I think he will fail. But just by being vocal about what he believes, then people are going to be free to agree or disagree with him. The diversity of opinion is what is needed.

Looking at our own Hassan, who probably has more ex-Muslim merit badges than all of us here, I think that when it comes to personal belief, just about anything is possible. We are writing the rules ourselves as we go along. Eventually, people who are fed up with literalism and its false choices might look at what Usama Hassan has done, or what Maajid Nawaz has done, or what Hassan Radwan has done, and realize that they believe something very similar.

Or, they might look at the writings of Ex-Muslims and find that they are actually more comfortable dropping the label of Muslim all together.

Either way, it'll be up to people to decide for themselves what works for them. The literalists want to make sure they don't have that chance.
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Reply #48 - December 22, 2015, 05:27 PM

Quote
Eventually, people who are fed up with literalism and its false choices might look at what Usama Hassan has done, or what Maajid Nawaz has done, or what Hassan Radwan has done, and realize that they believe something very similar

I definitely agree with that. Alternatives are great.

Sorry if I sounded harsh when I wrote "sink." I didn't mean that from a close-minded literalist perspective. I just think that when one tries so hard to tell everyone "this is the truth" they have a chance to sink.. But when I think about it, I don't really see Usamah Hassan being pushy about his beliefs like other Muslims are..

Hassan Radwan is a good example of offering others alternatives. The Agnostic Muslim movement is going to pick up even though its criticizers will say, "it doesn't make sense because part of being Muslim is to have yaqeen."

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #49 - December 22, 2015, 05:32 PM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 22, 2015, 05:27 PM
...........Hassan Radwan is a good example .........

sure.. Hassan Radwan types and Happy_M types are Agnostic Jinns.,

This damn forum is giving birth to Jinns...

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #50 - December 22, 2015, 06:01 PM

Oh no, don't apologize. You're completely entitled to that opinion. It's not too far fetched. As I said, several years ago I was literally saying the same thing. I even (embarrassingly) commented on the YouTube video of him explaining evolution to his congregation with something like "Usama Hasan is WRONG. Evolution is true and it is NOT compatible with Islam," or something along those lines.

All I'm saying is that now, I've widened my thinking a bit to at least understand where he might be coming from, even if I don't personally believe it myself.
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Reply #51 - December 22, 2015, 06:10 PM

No, I don't believe what you believed a long time ago. I believe what you currently believe now.

I wouldn't go as far to think, "it's impossible to mix evolution and islam" but at the same time, my preference is to be an agnostic atheist. I also don't have faith that the majority of muslims in this ummah will accept his view.. But this is my opinion.

I'm not bigoted about his viewpoints. I share the same feeling of being open to what he has to say.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #52 - December 22, 2015, 06:13 PM
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Reply #53 - December 22, 2015, 07:01 PM

Captain Ex., Captain Ex-Muslim ...Captain Vlog Captain Guy says something that is important
Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 22, 2015, 06:10 PM
No, I don't believe what you believed a long time ago. I believe what you currently believe now.

I would~~n't~~ go as far to think, "it's impossible to mix evolution and islam" but at the same time, my preference is to be an agnostic atheist. .............

let me delete that ~~n't~~ .. now that sounds good ..

Indeed "it's impossible to mix evolution and Islam" not only that "it's impossible to mix evolution and ANY RELIGION" and that goes to all religions of this world that are older than December 30th 1980

so what are the major religions of the evolved Human animal??

well we can add some more religions/faiths/cults to that list but dear ExMuslimVlogGuy., my problem is why this cut off date is December 30th 1980?? ... I hate that date..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #54 - December 22, 2015, 07:17 PM

Yeez,

I believe in evolution+Islam as much as I believe in this man..

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #55 - December 22, 2015, 07:28 PM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 22, 2015, 07:17 PM
Yeez,

I believe in evolution+Islam as much as I believe in this man..

(Clicky for piccy!)

that indoamerican is an harmless pest who is trying to mint some dollars by telling some silly stories with modern science with some old ...om om om wine... dear Ex_Mlg.... not worth wasting time with that guy and what he says., But this one is important The dark vision of neocons by Ramzy Baroud...

I like what Ramzy writes and I reserve my rights to question his juice theory ., I have toagree with him that these neocon John Bolton likes are the dangerous characters.. At this link http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=13689.msg379640#msg379640 on December 16, 2010, 05:09 PM I said

"John Bolton is THE MOST PEACEFUL ROGUE one will ever find in any government across the globe in any nation" and I added this video link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpzHd7g_OzY

to prove that., so question is do you agree with me or not....? Damn that was 5 years ago...

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Reply #56 - December 23, 2015, 07:24 AM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 22, 2015, 04:59 PM
My view on Usamah Hassan is that the man is either really ahead of his time, or he's going to sink.

I think he's absolutely of his time, wobbling awkwardly atop two separate fences - a Briton of recent immigrant stock trying to embrace the basic pluralism of his country without rejecting cultural and familial attitudes that are anything but pluralistic - and an educated man trying, as Charles Darwin did, to reconcile faith (and the social conservatism it increasingly engenders) with reason, trying not to scare the horses because the last thing Britain needs is a stampede.

As someone said earlier, Maajid is a politician, inherently self-interested even as he does a pretty fine job of work. Usama Hasan has more skin in the game.
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Reply #57 - December 23, 2015, 07:29 AM

Quote from: happymurtad on December 22, 2015, 04:46 PM
I am personally not an atheist, but agnostic. (I use that word as an adjective rather than as a noun.) To be clear, I have no faith in the plausibility of that celestial tyrant imagined to rule from above a throne perched upon some archaic idea of seven heavens, but if there is anything that might fit the definition of “god,” then it is beyond our ability to fathom. And who am I to claim to know all of the realities of the unknown. I try not to spend too much time thinking about it. It’s bad for you, like pondering infinity.

Ditto, especially the last bit. I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and infinite vistas Bother Me,
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Reply #58 - December 23, 2015, 11:07 AM

But why privilege one holy book over another if you give up on them being literally true? How does one determine which one is more metaphorically/symbolically true?

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
-Thomas Paine
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Reply #59 - December 23, 2015, 01:19 PM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 22, 2015, 07:17 PM
Yeez,

I believe in evolution+Islam as much as I believe in this man..

(Clicky for piccy!)

SO ExMuslimVlogGuy HOW ARE YOU DOING?? may be I am not reading you properly.. did you mean to say
Quote
I believe in evolution as much as I believe in this Foooool.. ??

Or

I believe in Islam as much as I believe in this Foooool.. ??

Or

I believe in "Islam as compatible to Evolutionary biology" as much as I believe in this Foooool.. ??

So which one is right??

with best wishes
yeezevee

Hmm let me watch some tubes....

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nupB70anRrQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X3BaYCdDfY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KX-JVt0uf0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X3BaYCdDfY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onFO-33kheE

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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