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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hello!

 (Read 18166 times)
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  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #30 - May 19, 2010, 02:56 PM

    She has arranged for me to meet and dicsuss my problems with various sheikhs/imams in the hopes I will "revert" back to Islam, but these discussions have just sealed the deal for me!



    This is an interesting issue, for me at least. i wonder how many ex-Muslims actively sought answers to questions they had. As in, not only reading books/websites, but questioning learned men and women. And the right type of learned men and women. People who speak on their level and have in-depth knowledge, not those whose Imam status was bestowed upon them by virtue of attending a Pakistani madrassah at aged 12. Many Imams in the UK clearly do not have rhetorical gifts, nor, quite frankly, the knowledge, to convince English-speaking doubters.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #31 - May 19, 2010, 03:01 PM

    In another thread you mentioned that you might want to draw your own Muhammad pic? Do you draw your own stuff?


    Yes, I do! I am sort of getting back into drawing the past year or so after giving it up a few years back for "Islamic reasons"  Embarrassed (perhaps the thing I am most bitter about towards Islam). I mainly do abstract/sci-fi stuff in Photoshop using a graphics tablet (best purchase I ever made). I am really excited to do a Muhammad drawing, I'm just trying to think of something original right now, thoug I should probably get a move on before this "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day" gets cancelled!

    Do you draw Kenan?

  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #32 - May 19, 2010, 03:15 PM

    This is an interesting issue, for me at least. i wonder how many ex-Muslims actively sought answers to questions they had. As in, not only reading books/websites, but questioning learned men and women. And the right type of learned men and women. People who speak on their level and have in-depth knowledge, not those whose Imam status was bestowed upon them by virtue of attending a Pakistani madrassah at aged 12. Many Imams in the UK clearly do not have rhetorical gifts, nor, quite frankly, the knowledge, to convince English-speaking doubters.


    Absolutely Hassan, I think there is a real gulf in the experiences of and as a result a crippling communication barrier between the imams of the UK and the young Muslims of the UK. The imams are mostly first generation immigrants whilst the young Muslims are mostly second or third-generation immigrants who have grown up here. As a result, the imams have no idea whatsoever what the young generation go through in terms of doubts, questions, and confusion. The older Muslims are currently panicking and trying to address the gap by starting Islamic course for young people to create "scholars of tomorrow" (see: Al Kathar and Magrib Institute). It is too early to say whether this will succeed or fail.

    At the same time, as an apostate who has lived in both Muslim (KSA) and non-Muslim countries, I feel that there is no such thing as "the right kind" of learned men and women, and feel that this is actually a myth perpetrated by the scholars of various schools to discredit the scholars of various other schools. I am of the opinion that that for one to reach a level of "in-depth" knowledge in Islam whilst living in the West requires one to also cultivate a sense of "double-thinking", at least this is based on the experiences I have had talking to people who claim to have "in-depth" knowledge...
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #33 - May 19, 2010, 03:21 PM

    Welcome!  Smiley
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #34 - May 19, 2010, 03:28 PM

    Eliphaz,

    I am very much of the opinion that different flavours of Islam will appeal to different people. Salafis are vanilla, whilst Sufis are more tooti-fruity. The quran has various levels of meaning, which is why it continues to enchant millions. The prophet (saw) also mentioned how differences in religion are a blessing for Allah, so there definately is not one right way of Islam, IMO.

    Different schoalrs provide different perspectives and make reasoned arguments based on their understanding; many of these understandings have a bsis in classical schoalrship, so there is nothing heretical about it. The fear I have is that many disenfranchised Muslim youth will speak about their problems to an Pakistani-born Imam who, at best, will refer them to Harun Yahya, or something equally cringe-worthy. This is a current problem; as you mentioned, numerous western Muslims are leaning about Islam from western unievsrsties, and western educated sheikhs and scholars. I imagine that in the next few decades, western muslims will be well equipped to deal with Orientalist arguments and speak with a level of confidence that demands respect. We are already begining to see signs of this, which is definiately encouraging (from my point of view).

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #35 - May 19, 2010, 03:34 PM

    @ H1

    You said:
    Quote
    Different schoalrs provide different perspectives and make reasoned arguments based on their understanding; many of these understandings have a bsis in classical schoalrship, so there is nothing heretical about it.


    I find this statement of yours, heretical, because it implies that "classical scolarship" is necessarily a part of the religion.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #36 - May 19, 2010, 03:41 PM

    Good point, Debunker. It's just that many folk (Muslim/non-Muslim) will consider anything which does not have its source in classical scholarship as heretic. Muslims will call it new age, non-muslims will refer to it as a way for Muslims to mould their religion into something that it isn't. Hence the caveat.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #37 - May 19, 2010, 05:29 PM

    Welcome!  Smiley


    Thanks Unechance!

    Eliphaz,

    I am very much of the opinion that different flavours of Islam will appeal to different people. Salafis are vanilla, whilst Sufis are more tooti-fruity. The quran has various levels of meaning, which is why it continues to enchant millions. The prophet (saw) also mentioned how differences in religion are a blessing for Allah, so there definately is not one right way of Islam, IMO.

    Different schoalrs provide different perspectives and make reasoned arguments based on their understanding; many of these understandings have a bsis in classical schoalrship, so there is nothing heretical about it. The fear I have is that many disenfranchised Muslim youth will speak about their problems to an Pakistani-born Imam who, at best, will refer them to Harun Yahya, or something equally cringe-worthy. This is a current problem; as you mentioned, numerous western Muslims are leaning about Islam from western unievsrsties, and western educated sheikhs and scholars. I imagine that in the next few decades, western muslims will be well equipped to deal with Orientalist arguments and speak with a level of confidence that demands respect. We are already begining to see signs of this, which is definiately encouraging (from my point of view).


    That's great, you seem to have a more open-minded view on interpreting Islam than many Muslims do (i.e. the Salafis). I agree with what you have said regarding the Qur'an being a very "complex" book (but I think we disagree as to why that is) and I know where you are coming from. My problems with Islam do not stem from any one school of thought but rather from Islam as a whole.

    I feel your fears are well-founded regarding youths getting the wrong advice from imams. I agree, Harun Yahya has pretty much scored an own-goal for Islam despite his best intentions.

    I think where we disagree is on where we see the future of Islam in the West. I have mentioned above that I don't know whether scholars in the west will succeed or fail in "saving" these young Muslims from slowly leaving Islam. However I DO feel that even if they are able to save them, it will be a case of too little, too late. It is my strongest inclination that Islam as an ideology cannot really survive in the West as a viable option given that it contradicts so strongly with the prevailing ideas of the West.
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #38 - May 19, 2010, 05:40 PM

    This is an interesting issue, for me at least. i wonder how many ex-Muslims actively sought answers to questions they had. As in, not only reading books/websites, but questioning learned men and women. And the right type of learned men and women. People who speak on their level and have in-depth knowledge, not those whose Imam status was bestowed upon them by virtue of attending a Pakistani madrassah at aged 12. Many Imams in the UK clearly do not have rhetorical gifts, nor, quite frankly, the knowledge, to convince English-speaking doubters.


    I did.
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #39 - May 19, 2010, 05:42 PM

    Absolutely Hassan


    btw that's Hassan1 - not me - I'm the real Hassan - the one and only.

    Hassan1 is an imposter!  grin12
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #40 - May 19, 2010, 05:45 PM

    Eliphaz,

    I am very much of the opinion that different flavours of Islam will appeal to different people. Salafis are vanilla, whilst Sufis are more tooti-fruity. The quran has various levels of meaning, which is why it continues to enchant millions. The prophet (saw) also mentioned how differences in religion are a blessing for Allah, so there definately is not one right way of Islam, IMO.

    Different schoalrs provide different perspectives and make reasoned arguments based on their understanding; many of these understandings have a bsis in classical schoalrship, so there is nothing heretical about it. The fear I have is that many disenfranchised Muslim youth will speak about their problems to an Pakistani-born Imam who, at best, will refer them to Harun Yahya, or something equally cringe-worthy. This is a current problem; as you mentioned, numerous western Muslims are leaning about Islam from western unievsrsties, and western educated sheikhs and scholars. I imagine that in the next few decades, western muslims will be well equipped to deal with Orientalist arguments and speak with a level of confidence that demands respect. We are already begining to see signs of this, which is definiately encouraging (from my point of view).


    Hopefully you will one day accept, apostate flavour too - it's yummy and comes with a flake.  Afro
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #41 - May 19, 2010, 05:53 PM

    @ H1

    You said:
    I find this statement of yours, heretical, because it implies that "classical scolarship" is necessarily a part of the religion.


    Judgment day will be rather like a dramatic end to a quiz show. God will be the cheesy host in a glittery pink suit slowly opening the envelope to reveal the winner - as all the various religions, sects, Tariqas, Mathabs, parties and cults look on nervously.

    Slowly God will say:

    "And the winner..."

    "The one who picked not only the right religion..."

    "But the true interpretation of it..."

    "Was..."


    <awkward silence>


    <cough>





    "The Westboro Baptist Church!"

  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #42 - May 19, 2010, 05:58 PM

    lol @ Hassan... the real one  Wink

    And Salam and welcome, Eliphaz  grin12

    The prophet (saw) also mentioned how differences in religion are a blessing for Allah, so there definately is not one right way of Islam, IMO.


    Volume 4, Book 56, Number 682:

    Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

    I heard a person reciting a (Quranic) Verse in a certain way, and I had heard the Prophet reciting the same Verse in a different way. So I took him to the Prophet and informed him of that but I noticed the sign of disapproval on his face, and then he said, "Both of you are correct, so don't differ, for the nations before you differed, so they were destroyed."
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #43 - May 19, 2010, 06:01 PM

    I imagine that in the next few decades, western muslims will be well equipped to deal with Orientalist arguments and speak with a level of confidence that demands respect.


    What are the 'Orientalist arguments'?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #44 - May 19, 2010, 06:14 PM

    Judgment day will be rather like a dramatic end to a quiz show. God will be the cheesy host in a glittery pink suit slowly opening the envelope to reveal the winner - as all the various religions, sects, Tariqas, Mathabs, parties and cults look on nervously.

    Slowly God will say:

    "And the winner..."

    "The one who picked not only the right religion..."

    "But the true interpretation of it..."

    "Was..."


    <awkward silence>


    <cough>





    "The Westboro Baptist Church!"





    you know what Hassan? Sometimes you make me feel guilty, for being here... you just made me laugh at a joke about God and that's really bad  Angry

    Ok, I'll try not to read your jokes anymore... you and Iblis are the two members here I feel nervous reading their God-related jokes...

    Speaking of whom, where the fuck is Iblis?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #45 - May 19, 2010, 06:20 PM

    Speaking of whom, where the fuck is Iblis?


    Unfortunately he's on a ban. Long story - not sure of all the details myself - perhaps someone else can fill you in better - but I sincerely hope he will be back soon. I really miss him. Yes I agree I think he has a wicked sense of humour as well as being as bright as a button.

    Come back Iblis!
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #46 - May 19, 2010, 06:28 PM

    Judgment day will be rather like a dramatic end to a quiz show. God will be the cheesy host in a glittery pink suit slowly opening the envelope to reveal the winner - as all the various religions, sects, Tariqas, Mathabs, parties and cults look on nervously.

    Slowly God will say:

    "And the winner..."

    "The one who picked not only the right religion..."

    "But the true interpretation of it..."

    "Was..."


    <awkward silence>


    <cough>





    "The Westboro Baptist Church!"





    Wouldn't it be so cool if that really happened? I'd love to see the reactions of everyone else  mysmilie_977

  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #47 - May 19, 2010, 06:56 PM

    Speaking of whom, where the fuck is Iblis?

    He's on a three month ban - check out his last set of posts

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #48 - May 19, 2010, 07:51 PM

    Welcome

    Your ego is so out of whack that it will do whatever it can to protect itself. And people with a messed up ego can do these mental gymnastics to convince themselves they're awesome when really, they're just douchebags!-->Kyle Brolovski
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #49 - May 19, 2010, 08:00 PM

    He's on a three month ban - check out his last set of posts


    3 months??!!! Did he *threaten* anyone?


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #50 - May 19, 2010, 08:06 PM

    No he didnt, he said things that he shouldnt have said after he lost his rag

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #51 - May 19, 2010, 09:57 PM

    I did.


    May I ask who exactly? Just out of curiosity. Were they 'famous' (by muslim standards)?

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #52 - May 19, 2010, 10:08 PM

    I didnt because I knew there were no answers that would satisfy me - for me it was the deeper philosophical questions that made me leave Islam to which there are no answers. The questions are in my blog in my sig, and are still unresolved, so if you care then you can still put them to one of these scholars.

    I am convinced Islam is manmade, but am happy read their response with an open mind if you want me to..

    oth if you read Omar Khayyams early posts, you will find he underwent extreme & thorough study before he discounted Islam, and spoke to a number of scholars first.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #53 - May 19, 2010, 10:16 PM

    May I ask who exactly? Just out of curiosity. Were they 'famous' (by muslim standards)?


    Had deep discussions with (you can decide for yourself if they are 'famous' or not)

    Sheikh Ahmad Babakir, the Sudanese sheikh at Islamia school - a very nice guy who I still hold in very high esteem and respect. I discussed with him all my doubts and questions and although he always came up with good responses - they ultimately didn't satisfy me.

    Same thing with Sheikh Mahmoud - an Egyptian Sheikh - and long-time friend of my family.

    Had quite a few discussions about my doubts with Sheikh Abdu Salam - a (moderate) Palestinian Sheikh also one time associated with Islamia School.

    Apart from that I have had conversations with a great many ppl down the years including - Abdul Hakim Murad aka Timothy Winter (who is married to the sister of my brother's wife), Ahmad Thomson (I don't think he likes to call himself sheikh), Sheikh Zaki Badawi (who was also a friend of the family), Sheikh Abu Bakr, Sheikh Darsh... amongst others that I can't think of right now.

  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #54 - May 19, 2010, 10:28 PM

    Welcome!  Smiley


    Thanks!

    Hopefully you will one day accept, apostate flavour too - it's yummy and comes with a flake.  Afro

    Mmmm gotta have the flakes! Cheesy


    Judgment day will be rather like a dramatic end to a quiz show. God will be the cheesy host in a glittery pink suit slowly opening the envelope to reveal the winner - as all the various religions, sects, Tariqas, Mathabs, parties and cults look on nervously.

    Slowly God will say:

    "And the winner..."

    "The one who picked not only the right religion..."

    "But the true interpretation of it..."

    "Was..."


    <awkward silence>


    <cough>





    "The Westboro Baptist Church!"




     Cheesy Man that would be quite simply awful, yet it's eerie how similar that is to the way many religionists think the Day of Judgement will play out...

    Welcome


    Cheers!
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #55 - May 19, 2010, 10:43 PM

    Hassan, if you don't mind, could you let me know what Sheikh Ahmad Babakir had to say about eternal Hell, or any of the other guys that gave you the best response - did they say if they thought it was eternal or not? you can PM me if it's more appropriate.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #56 - May 19, 2010, 10:48 PM

    Quote
    Hassan, if you don't mind, could you let me know what Sheikh Ahmad Babakir had to say about eternal Hell, or any of the other guys that gave you the best response - did they say if they thought it was eternal or not? you can PM me if it's more appropriate


    Why don't you forget about those Sheikhs, Abu, and listen instead to Sheikh debunker's lecture to you, in the Exclusive Rooms, this weekend? I'm sure it'll ease your pain  grin12

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #57 - May 19, 2010, 10:50 PM

    In that case, Sheikh Debunker, what does your signature mean to you?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #58 - May 19, 2010, 10:52 PM

    Hassan, if you don't mind, could you let me know what Sheikh Ahmad Babakir had to say about eternal Hell, or any of the other guys that gave you the best response - did they say if they thought it was eternal or not? you can PM me if it's more appropriate.


    He said anyone with an atoms weight of good would eventually be taken out of Hell - which obviously means a lot of people - but he still held that the most evil would be there for eternity.

    And he is a very liberal and moderate guy.
  • Re: Hello!
     Reply #59 - May 19, 2010, 10:54 PM

    Why don't you forget about those Sheikhs, Abu, and listen instead to Sheikh debunker's lecture to you, in the Exclusive Rooms, this weekend? I'm sure it'll ease your pain  grin12


    we'll see dude, good luck tomorrow  Afro

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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