Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Today at 12:04 PM

New PM incoming
by zeca
Today at 11:48 AM

Excellence and uniqueness
Today at 11:46 AM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
Today at 11:25 AM

Tetsu Nakamura
Today at 11:01 AM

Iran uprising - is the en...
by zeca
Today at 10:01 AM

We Were All Doomed From T...
Today at 01:17 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Yesterday at 06:06 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
Yesterday at 05:18 PM

Freely down loadable Boo...
Yesterday at 04:44 PM

Chronological History of ...
Yesterday at 03:24 PM

The science in the Quran
Yesterday at 02:55 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: "Islam's Nowhere Men"

 (Read 6936 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     OP - May 11, 2010, 03:49 AM

    Quote
    MAY 10, 2010

    Islam's Nowhere Men
    By FOUAD AJAMI

    Millions like Faisal Shahzad are unsettled by a modern world they can neither master nor reject.

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    'A Muslim has no nationality except his belief," the intellectual godfather of the Islamists, Egyptian Sayyid Qutb, wrote decades ago. Qutb's "children" are everywhere now; they carry the nationalities of foreign lands and plot against them. The Pakistani born Faisal Shahzad is a devotee of Sayyid Qutb's doctrine, and Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Fort Hood shooter, was another.

    Qutb was executed by the secular dictatorship of Gamal Abdel Nasser in 1966. But his thoughts and legacy endure. Globalization, the shaking up of continents, the ease of travel, and the doors for immigration flung wide open by Western liberal societies have given Qutb's worldview greater power and relevance. What can we make of a young man like Shahzad working for Elizabeth Arden, receiving that all-American degree, the MBA, jogging in the evening in Bridgeport, then plotting mass mayhem in Times Square?

    The Islamists are now within the gates. They fled the fires and the failures of the Islamic world but brought the ruin with them. They mock national borders and identities. A parliamentary report issued by Britain's House of Commons on the London Underground bombings of July 7, 2005 lays bare this menace and the challenge it poses to a system of open borders and modern citizenship.

    The four men who pulled off those brutal attacks, the report noted, "were apparently well integrated into British society." Three of them were second generation Britons born in West Yorkshire. The oldest, a 30-year-old father of a 14-month-old infant, "appeared to others as a role model to young people." One of the four, 22 years of age, was a boy of some privilege; he owned a red Mercedes given to him by his father and was given to fashionable hairstyles and designer clothing. This young man played cricket on the eve of the bombings. The next day, the day of the terror, a surveillance camera filmed him in a store. "He buys snacks, quibbles with the cashier over his change, looks directly at the CCTV camera, and leaves." Two of the four, rather like Faisal Shahzad, had spent time in Pakistan before they pulled off their deed.

    A year after the London terror, hitherto tranquil Canada had its own encounter with the new Islamism. A ring of radical Islamists were charged with plotting to attack targets in southern Ontario with fertilizer bombs. A school-bus driver was one of the leaders of these would-be jihadists. A report by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service unintentionally echoed the British House of Commons findings. "These individuals are part of Western society, and their 'Canadianness' makes detection more difficult. Increasingly, we are learning of more and more extremists that are homegrown. The implications of this shift are profound."

    And indeed they are, but how can "Canadianness" withstand the call of the faith and the obligation of jihad? I think of one Egyptian Islamist in London, a man by the name of Yasser Sirri, who gave the matter away some six years ago: "The whole Arab world was dangerous for me. I went to London," he observed.

    In Egypt, three sentences had been rendered against him: one condemned him to 25 years of hard labor, the second to 15 years, and the third to death for plotting to assassinate a prime minister. Sirri had fled Egypt to Yemen, then to the Sudan. But it was better and easier in bilad al-kufar, the lands of unbelief. There is wealth in the West and there are the liberties afforded by an open society.

    In an earlier age—I speak here autobiographically, and not of some vanished world long ago but of the 1960s when I made my way to the United States—the world was altogether different. Mass migration from the Islamic world had not begun. The immigrants who turned up in Western lands were few, and they were keen to put the old lands, and their feuds and attachments, behind them. Islam was then a religion of Afro-Asia; it had not yet put down roots in Western Europe and the New World. Air travel was costly and infrequent.

    The new lands, too, made their own claims, and the dominant ideology was one of assimilation. The national borders were real, and reflected deep civilizational differences. It was easy to tell where "the East" ended and Western lands began. Postmodernist ideas had not made their appearance. Western guilt had not become an article of faith in the West itself.

    Nowadays the Islamic faith is portable. It is carried by itinerant preachers and imams who transmit its teachings to all corners of the world, and from the safety and plenty of the West they often agitate against the very economic and moral order that sustains them. Satellite television plays its part in this new agitation, and the Islam of the tele-preachers is invariably one of damnation and fire. From tranquil, banal places (Dubai and Qatar), satellite television offers an incendiary version of the faith to younger immigrants unsettled by a modern civilization they can neither master nor reject.

    And home, the Old Country, is never far. Pakistani authorities say Faisal Shahzad made 13 visits to Pakistan in the last seven years. This would have been unthinkable three or four decades earlier. Shahzad lived on the seam between the Old Country and the New. The path of citizenship he took gave him the precious gift of an American passport but made no demands on him.

    From Pakistan comes a profile of Shahzad's father, a man of high military rank, and of property and standing: He was "a man of modern thinking and of the modern age," it was said of him in his ancestral village of Mohib Banda in recent days. That arc from a secular father to a radicalized son is, in many ways, the arc of Pakistan since its birth as a nation-state six decades ago. The secular parents and the radicalized children is also a tale of Islam, that broken pact with modernity, the mothers who fought to shed the veil and the daughters who now wish to wear the burqa in Paris and Milan.

    In its beginnings, the Pakistan of Faisal Shahzad's parents was animated by the modern ideals of its founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah. In that vision, Pakistan was to be a state for the Muslims of the subcontinent, but not an Islamic state in the way it ordered its political and cultural life. The bureaucratic and military elites who dominated the state, and defined its culture, were a worldly breed. The British Raj had been their formative culture.

    But the world of Pakistan was recast in the 1980s under a zealous and stern military leader, Zia ul-Haq. Zia offered Pakistan Islamization and despotism. He had ridden the jihad in Afghanistan next door to supreme power; he brought the mullahs into the political world, and they, in turn, brought the militants with them.

    ***

    This was the Pakistan in which young Faisal Shahzad was formed; the world of his parents was irretrievable. The maxim that Pakistan is governed by a trinity—Allah, army, America—gives away this confusion: The young man who would do his best to secure an American education before succumbing to the call of the jihad is a man in the grip of a deep schizophrenia. The overcrowded cities of Islam—from Karachi and Casablanca to Cairo—and those cities in Europe and North America where the Islamic diaspora is now present in force have untold multitudes of men like Faisal Shahzad.

    This is a long twilight war, the struggle against radical Islamism. We can't wish it away. No strategy of winning "hearts and minds," no great outreach, will bring this struggle to an end. America can't conciliate these furies. These men of nowhere—Faisal Shahzad, Nidal Malik Hasan, the American-born renegade cleric Anwar Awlaki now holed up in Yemen and their likes—are a deadly breed of combatants in this new kind of war. Modernity both attracts and unsettles them. America is at once the object of their dreams and the scapegoat onto which they project their deepest malignancies.


    Mr. Ajami, a professor at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution, is the author of "The Foreigner's Gift" (Free Press, 2007).



    Combine the Islamic memeplex, with an interconnected, globalized and satellite connected world of information/videos/networks available 24/7, and a global, largely unregulated and very profitable arms marketplace (for arms dealers, manufacturers and their investors), and it's no wonder that we are seeing a growth in radicalization, especially of otherwise disenfranchised youth, followed by a growth in racism/nationalism in the host countries, with both extremes fueling each other. wacko

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #1 - May 11, 2010, 04:09 AM

    Basically we're fucked.  Smiley
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #2 - May 11, 2010, 04:31 AM

    yeah quite a pessimistic article.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #3 - May 11, 2010, 09:17 AM

    Basically we're fucked.  Smiley

    Yeah, you pretty much summed it up

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #4 - May 11, 2010, 11:32 AM

    Basically we're fucked.  Smiley

    Nope. "They" are fucked.
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #5 - May 11, 2010, 11:39 AM


    Very good article.

    Sadly, politicians, journalists are only just now beginning to understand these processes. Many people are still in denial about it. But I don't think it can be avoided any longer.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #6 - May 11, 2010, 11:41 AM

    Basically we're fucked.  Smiley


    I think it can be challenged - but it will take a collective appreciation of the issues - both from kuffar societies and Muslim minorities. Sadly, the introspection from within Islamic communities is the hardest part.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #7 - May 11, 2010, 12:49 PM

    Quote
    Islam's Nowhere Men  By FOUAD AJAMI

    Fouad Ajami was the STRONGEST supporter of Iraq war during Bush's times.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA6HOcLa6o0 
    there are 5 videos of that interview.. watch it ..

    watch him here also..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx-yWKL8jMI

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #8 - May 11, 2010, 12:49 PM

    Nope. "They" are fucked.


    +1  Afro

    The means (global media - movement of populations) by which the Islamists spread their stupid ideas are the same means other - much better - ideas are also being spread.

    Fundamentalists are in their death throws. Firework displays look awesome but then they are gone - all fizzled out!

    The very reason we are seeing the (temporary) rise of fundamentalism is that it is being challenged like never before in the history of man. Quiet backwaters of ignorance are no longer insulated from the Global Society and the spotlight of scrutiny. They know they face extinction. They are cornered and wounded and angry and are giving their all to fight for their life. But extinct they will be.
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #9 - May 11, 2010, 12:54 PM

    Articles like this are a good start - to begin to get a more sophisticated and nuanced look at the problem.  Only then can the problem be addressed.
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #10 - May 11, 2010, 12:56 PM


    Combine the Islamic memeplex, with an interconnected, globalized and satellite connected world of information/videos/networks available 24/7, and a global, largely unregulated and very profitable arms marketplace (for arms dealers, manufacturers and their investors), and it's no wonder that we are seeing a growth in radicalization, especially of otherwise disenfranchised youth, followed by a growth in racism/nationalism in the host countries, with both extremes fueling each other. wacko

    I agree that ultra-nationalism and religious extremism are becoming increasingly symbiotic, at least as catalysts for the introduction and acceptance of their respective narratives amongst young men (and in some cases women). I don't think this will last, however. An interesting snippet from the NIC's Global Trends 2025 report suggests that the daughters of Muslim immigrant communities may help ease the assimilation of those communities into their host countries alleviating some of the social problems we're seeing:
    Quote
    Nowhere is the role of women potentially more important for geopolitical change than in the Muslim World.  Muslim women do far better assimilating in Europe than their male relatives, partly because they flourish in the educational system, which facilitates their entry into jobs in information or service industries.  Sharply declining fertility rates among Muslims in Europe demonstrate this willingness to accept jobs outside the home and a growing refusal to conform to traditional norms.  In the short term, the decline of traditional Muslim family structures may help explain the openness of many young Muslim men to radical Islamic messages.  However, in rearing future generations, women might help show the way to greater social assimilation and reduce the likelihood of religious extremism.  The impact of growing numbers of women in the workplace may also have an impact outside Europe.  The modernizing countries of the Islamic Mediterranean have close ties to Europe, to which these countries have sent many migrants.
    Migrants return to visit or resettle and bring with them new ideas and expectations.  These Islamic countries also receive foreign influences from European mass media, through satellite dishes and the Internet.


    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #11 - May 11, 2010, 12:56 PM

    The means (global media - movement of populations) by which the Islamists spread their stupid ideas are the same means other - much better - ideas are also being spread.

    Fundamentalists are in their death throws. Firework displays look awesome but then they are gone - all fizzled out!

    The very reason we are seeing the (temporary) rise of fundamentalism is that it is being challenged like never before in the history of man. Quiet backwaters of ignorance are no longer insulated from the Global Society and the spotlight of scrutiny. They know they face extinction. They are cornered and wounded and angry and are giving their all to fight for their life. But extinct they will be.



    + 1,000,000  Afro


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #12 - May 11, 2010, 01:02 PM

    +1  Afro

    The means (global media - movement of populations) by which the Islamists spread their stupid ideas are the same means other - much better - ideas are also being spread.

    Fundamentalists are in their death throws. Firework displays look awesome but then they are gone - all fizzled out!

    The very reason we are seeing the (temporary) rise of fundamentalism is that it is being challenged like never before in the history of man. Quiet backwaters of ignorance are no longer insulated from the Global Society and the spotlight of scrutiny. They know they face extinction. They are cornered and wounded and angry and are giving their all to fight for their life. But extinct they will be.


    Absolutely. They're covering for their vacuous ideology with these "firework displays", as you say but I think people are slowly wising up. It's crucial that young girls in these communities are protected and supported, because with the next generation they could make a massive difference in the way they socialise their children; immunising them from extremist rhetoric and helping to dissolve the divisional mindset of "us" and "them".

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #13 - May 11, 2010, 01:04 PM

    nice post H  Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #14 - May 11, 2010, 01:11 PM

    +1  Afro

    The means (global media - movement of populations) by which the Islamists spread their stupid ideas are the same means other - much better - ideas are also being spread.

    Fundamentalists are in their death throws. Firework displays look awesome but then they are gone - all fizzled out!

    The very reason we are seeing the (temporary) rise of fundamentalism is that it is being challenged like never before in the history of man. Quiet backwaters of ignorance are no longer insulated from the Global Society and the spotlight of scrutiny. They know they face extinction. They are cornered and wounded and angry and are giving their all to fight for their life. But extinct they will be.


    I have to say Hassan's justified realistic optimism more than just counterbalances the pessimism of Ajami's article.  grin12

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #15 - May 11, 2010, 01:18 PM

    +1  Afro

    The means (global media - movement of populations) by which the Islamists spread their stupid ideas are the same means other - much better - ideas are also being spread.

    Fundamentalists are in their death throws. Firework displays look awesome but then they are gone - all fizzled out!

    The very reason we are seeing the (temporary) rise of fundamentalism is that it is being challenged like never before in the history of man. Quiet backwaters of ignorance are no longer insulated from the Global Society and the spotlight of scrutiny. They know they face extinction. They are cornered and wounded and angry and are giving their all to fight for their life. But extinct they will be.



    God bless you brother  Afro

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #16 - May 11, 2010, 01:18 PM


    I don't see Ajami's article as pessimistic. I see it as an accurate diagnosis. You cannot cure an illness unless you diagnose it properly.

    We know all these things - too many out there, including the people who have the most influence, ie: the leaders and politicians in society, have been in denial about this issue, or have not recognised it.

    Part of the reason for this is the Islamic lobby - groups like the Muslim Council of Britain, who have roots in the Jamat-e-Islami. They are part of the problem. If you want to get this message to disseminate, we need to highlight and destroy the credibility of the MCB, MAB, Jamat-e-Islami, Muslim Brotherhood organisations leveraging 'multiculturalism' to spread their creed, including the left wing idiots who pander to them.

    That is one way to make people see the truth - the more articles like this that are written and disseminated, the better.

    Oh, and ex Muslims hold the ace in the pack in this whole debate. Why else do Muslims want to kill you all, or if you are lucky, merely persecute you, through threats, coercion and intimidation, into silence? Because you and other apostates know the truth, and can do more to bring down the delusions of political, identity-politics Islam, than anyone else.

    Know our power.







    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #17 - May 11, 2010, 01:19 PM

    God bless you brother  Afro


    He's still going to hell abuyunus  Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #18 - May 11, 2010, 02:07 PM

    I would like you guys to watch these BBCDohaDebates  conducted on March 30, 2005 -
     and Fouad Ajami   spoke in it., watch opponents  of  Fouad Ajami  
     
    Series 1 Episode 5 (Part 1)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLnyvcGHq-M&NR=1

    Series 1 Episode 5 (Part 2)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VcFq3SmltE

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #19 - May 11, 2010, 02:17 PM

    Sometimes I find it worrying, I get all these weird thoughts that maybe my kids or my grandkids or great-grandkids might not get to enjoy all the freedoms I have. It would be great if it was just a temporary revival of fundamentalism, and I sincerely hope it is, and I really hope that freedom does prevail.

    The extremists need to have their voice silenced by their own community who disagree with them. I think this is one thing we will see in the coming decades, a rift between secularists and fundamentalists... I don't know what to think about the future... My hope is that Islam becomes as watered down and its literal words become as redundant as mainstream Christianity and Judaism. I don't know.
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #20 - May 11, 2010, 02:21 PM

    He's still going to hell abuyunus  Grin


    ROFL

    and AY is joining him  Cheesy
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #21 - May 11, 2010, 02:34 PM

     BBCDohaDebates - March 30, 2005 - Series 1 Episode 5 (Part 3)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1czk_OnfX_A

    BBCDohaDebates - March 30, 2005 - Series 1 Episode 5 (Part 4)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbFXYByE_E4


    So are you guys watching??   Please watch it..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #22 - May 11, 2010, 02:44 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNRREguqHgs&feature=related
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #23 - May 11, 2010, 02:57 PM

    lol that song popped into my head also - great song - great band  Afro
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #24 - May 11, 2010, 05:35 PM

    Oh, and ex Muslims hold the ace in the pack in this whole debate. Why else do Muslims want to kill you all, or if you are lucky, merely persecute you, through threats, coercion and intimidation, into silence? Because you and other apostates know the truth, and can do more to bring down the delusions of political, identity-politics Islam, than anyone else.

    Know our power.

    I agree.

    I also like to add that we need a new movement from the Western left. A movement that values individual liberties, human rights, and freedom of expression over multiculturalism or cultural sensitivities. No more Ken Livingstones, no more mayors or PMs who are friends with "moderate" clerics or community leaders, no more anti-imperialists wearing Hamas or Hezbollah T-Shirts.

    Sadly today if an ex-Muslim wanted to do something the only way to get funding or publicity is by seeking the help of right-wing and/or neoconservatives think tanks or advocacy groups. Which is the case with Ibn-Warraq, Ali Sina, or Ayan Hirsi Ali.
    This will backfire and harm the cause because they will be seen as agents of the imperialist Zionist Christian Right.
  • Re: "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #25 - May 12, 2010, 10:54 PM


    I also like to add that we need a new movement from the Western left. A movement that values individual liberties, human rights, and freedom of expression over multiculturalism or cultural sensitivities. No more Ken Livingstones, no more mayors or PMs who are friends with "moderate" clerics or community leaders, no more anti-imperialists wearing Hamas or Hezbollah T-Shirts.



    Yes IA  Afro

    100% correct!


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #26 - June 23, 2014, 08:11 PM

    Bump.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #27 - June 23, 2014, 08:35 PM


    Yes IA  Afro

    100% correct!




    Yes, yes, yes!
  • "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #28 - June 23, 2014, 09:44 PM

    I don't see Ajami's article as pessimistic. I see it as an accurate diagnosis. You cannot cure an illness unless you diagnose it properly.

    We know all these things - too many out there, including the people who have the most influence, ie: the leaders and politicians in society, have been in denial about this issue, or have not recognised it.

    Part of the reason for this is the Islamic lobby - groups like the Muslim Council of Britain, who have roots in the Jamat-e-Islami. They are part of the problem. If you want to get this message to disseminate, we need to highlight and destroy the credibility of the MCB, MAB, Jamat-e-Islami, Muslim Brotherhood organisations leveraging 'multiculturalism' to spread their creed, including the left wing idiots who pander to them.

    That is one way to make people see the truth - the more articles like this that are written and disseminated, the better.

    Oh, and ex Muslims hold the ace in the pack in this whole debate. Why else do Muslims want to kill you all, or if you are lucky, merely persecute you, through threats, coercion and intimidation, into silence? Because you and other apostates know the truth, and can do more to bring down the delusions of political, identity-politics Islam, than anyone else.

    Know our power.










    bloody hell. four years old post, same issues still at play.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • "Islam's Nowhere Men"
     Reply #29 - June 23, 2014, 10:19 PM


    bloody hell. four years old post, same issues still at play.


    Shame really. To any sane person looking at the situation it's bloody obvious; hits you over the head.
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »