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 Topic: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the

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  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #30 - May 10, 2010, 12:10 PM
    i didnt knew a single person to talk with being skeptic about religion.my friends in pakistan have started calling me mentally retarded when i talk about god in such a way.and thats y i am worried about morals being taught or self evolved.i am really happy to know about this platform although i guess there are too few pakistanis around
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #31 - May 10, 2010, 12:11 PM
    I hope you find what you are looking for mate Smiley And that it makes you happy!
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #32 - May 10, 2010, 12:12 PM
    Quote from: stevevargas on May 10, 2010, 12:04 PM
    blackdog: it certainly affects me.their beleives made them crazy enough to blow themsleves in public it is constant threat for us to go into markets.(thats how they are affecting our daily life).they propose shairah to be imposed.and they did it in swat a year ago that was brutal. did u saw them flogging a women in street.i m wooried about ignorant masses dwelling in these areas who dont need any argument against religion no matter how strong it is

    Are you aware that there were religious wars in Europe only a few hundred years ago as a result of counter-reformation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_wars_in_Europe
    But than enlightenment kicked in and Europe has changed tremendously. Nowadays an openly gay politician can easily become a major of one of the most influential cities in EU: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Wowereit
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #33 - May 10, 2010, 01:30 PM
    Quote from: stevevargas on May 10, 2010, 12:10 PM
    i didnt knew a single person to talk with being skeptic about religion.my friends in pakistan have started calling me mentally retarded when i talk about god in such a way.and thats y i am worried about morals being taught or self evolved.i am really happy to know about this platform although i guess there are too few pakistanis around

    Hi Stevevargas,  Hope you don't mind me butting in on the conversation.  You might try looking at some of the Humanist websites. You'll find them at the bottom of CEMB,s Homepage.  It will give you an idea of how it's possible to cast off religion without losing your morality.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #34 - May 10, 2010, 02:26 PM
    Quote from: stevevargas on May 10, 2010, 12:10 PM
    i didnt knew a single person to talk with being skeptic about religion.my friends in pakistan have started calling me mentally retarded when i talk about god in such a way.and thats y i am worried about morals being taught or self evolved.i am really happy to know about this platform although i guess there are too few pakistanis around

    Certain family members say that to me as well.  Roll Eyes
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #35 - May 10, 2010, 02:43 PM
    Quote from: atheist.pk on May 10, 2010, 02:26 PM
    Certain family members say that to me as well.  Roll Eyes

      Well that is all right dear atheist.pk., Be good and do good as far as you can ., rest what people think is not in our hands  whether they are from family or outs side.,

    Anyways if possible give them a link of this video.. The four Horsemen..lol. (there are 2 of them)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKhc1pcDFM

    And request hem to compare that with this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjxrsz3nB6M


    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #36 - May 10, 2010, 03:14 PM
    Stevee, Anarchism is the Belief in NO authority, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". There would therefore be NO Countries at all.
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #37 - May 10, 2010, 05:30 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on May 10, 2010, 02:43 PM
     Well that is all right dear atheist.pk., Be good and do good as far as you can ., rest what people think is not in our hands  whether they are from family or outs side.,

    Anyways if possible give them a link of this video.. The four Horsemen..lol. (there are 2 of them)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKhc1pcDFM

    And request hem to compare that with this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjxrsz3nB6M


    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    yeezevee wrote (lol) only two of them

    my dear yeezevee which two are horsemen and which are the horses (lol)
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #38 - May 11, 2010, 01:50 AM
    Quote from: Abood on May 09, 2010, 06:40 PM
    From my understanding, the anarchists of Spain during the Civil War abandoned religion altogether and were very ethical and cared about each other, etc. better than any society before them.

    That led me to rethink whether or not I was for anarchy. Yeah, I was suprised. Without religion, we tend to get alot more done and way better.

    Quote from: Kenan on May 10, 2010, 11:52 AM
    The inspired nafs in Sufism:

       1. Ta'Jeel or Swiftness. A good deed must be done immediately and there should be no laziness.
       2. Tehqeer or Contempt. You must look at your good acts with contempt otherwise you will become self-righteous.
       3. Ikhfa or Secrecy. You must keep your good acts secret otherwise people will praise you and it will make you self-righteous.


    eww....don't like what the Allah says, I'd much rather take my time and enjoy the good I do for others and take pride in it, and praise myself for my good deeds (encouraging me to do more of them).
    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #39 - May 11, 2010, 04:21 PM
     morality is not a  result of religion .. but rather a result of evolving social interactions..
    any society that can put aside the fear of an all powerful deity that will somehow influence their lives magically through prayer.. and come to the realization that our very existence depends on ourselves .. to do good for humanity .. just because it's the right thing to do.. that's it..
    religion only taught us one thing.. how to think of ourselves superior over others who do not 'understand' or 'agree' with our magical secret ..
    no people would not kill babies, rape , murder without a 'god'.. it hasn't stopped them as of yet ..
    give people a little more credit..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #40 - May 11, 2010, 04:42 PM
    Besides people have killed babes, raped and murdered with god and for god. what does that say? does that make religion bad? does it make religious people bad? or does it mean there are religious people that are bad? i guess it makes religion bad if it says rape and murder or at least doesn't strongly condemn it
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #41 - May 11, 2010, 05:10 PM
    All you have to do is google up my forum username and see what Aztecs did to please Tlaloc.
    That's a strong counter proof against the thesis that morals MUST come from religion.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #42 - May 11, 2010, 05:38 PM
    I agree, i think it's silly to think that morality must come from religion (in my personal opinion it comes from a soul that every human posesses). but i do think that way back when religion was 'revealed', it may well have been necessary/helpful to put humanity on the right track. religion may have been necessary to help humans stay on course to evolve into what we are today. in general i think religion did a good job in shaping our civilisations for the better during the times they were 'revealed' - although no doubt in many instaces these religions were subsequently misused for personal gain and glory.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #43 - May 11, 2010, 05:55 PM
    Do other animals have 'souls'?
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #44 - May 11, 2010, 06:08 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 11, 2010, 05:38 PM
    I agree, i think it's silly to think that morality must come from religion (in my personal opinion it comes from a soul that every human posesses).



    Why does morality come from this "soul stuff." ?
    Define soul and why we need it for morality as opposed to our brains which do most of the thinking for us. Morality doesn't involve thinking then? It is some sort of base, transcendent thing given to us by our souls?

    Now even if we had souls...does this mean peoples lack of morality comes from their soul. Thus woudn't that mean God made us with a defected soul from the get-go?

    Making a claim such as one for the existence of a soul means you have to prove that claim.
    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #45 - May 11, 2010, 06:26 PM
    Well actually Abu Yunus would say he doesn't need to prove anything. Because he has faith. This is Abu Yunus in a debate:



    Fuck you. I have faith.
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #46 - May 11, 2010, 06:40 PM
    what BD said ^^

    and no need to get all huffy - it's just my personal opinion
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #47 - May 11, 2010, 06:42 PM
     Cheesy
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #48 - May 11, 2010, 06:43 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 11, 2010, 06:40 PM
    what BD said ^^

    and no need to get all huffy - it's just my personal opinion


    BD didn't say if animals have a soul!
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #49 - May 11, 2010, 06:44 PM
    Oh right, I forgot that.

    AY I would also like to know, do you think animals have souls?
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #50 - May 11, 2010, 07:01 PM
    i'm not sure about this one but i would tend to lean towards no they don't. i think we are a giant step ahead from other animals, sure animals love their offspring etc., but humans seem to be much more than that. we have the 'intelligence' to wonder if there is a God or not (why the heck should we even be able to do anything like this!), we have the intelligence to figure out the deepest laws that govern our universe, we care about what happens to people on the other side of the planet, we love people who are not related to us, we experience beautiful emotions, we have detailed moral codes on what's right and wrong. In addition we (as in humanity) grow, we change, we learn, we become different - we get better. Other animals just tend to stay the same.

    I can't prove any of this is because of a soul (or indeed whether the soul affects our intelligence in a positive manner), but i can't help but think there is something special within us humans that makes us stand out rather than a few genetic changes compared to apes.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #51 - May 11, 2010, 07:08 PM
    Hm I would have to disagree and I hope somebody can provide with the necessary scientific evidence.

    I think that we have a lot in common with other mammals, in terms of different personalities, a lot of pet owners would say so about their dogs and cats. Or that dogs can be depressed for example and suicidal. We can see cross-species utilitarianism, animals recognizing a human after many years and showing warm affection, like lions (that were raised in captivity) in certain cases. 

    If we talk about intelligence we can speak of dogs, dolphins, gorillas, chimpanzees, pigs, elephants etc

    Sure we might be more intelligent but I think we prove why scientifically.

    So I'm not really sure the points you made about what the soul does is that different from what we see in the animal kingdom.
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #52 - May 11, 2010, 07:19 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 11, 2010, 07:01 PM
    i'm not sure about this one but i would tend to lean towards no they don't. i think we are a giant step ahead from other animals, sure animals love their offspring etc., but humans seem to be much more than that. we have the 'intelligence' to wonder if there is a God or not


    How do you know other animals don't do that?

    Quote
    (why the heck should we even be able to do anything like this!),


    Because of the part of our brain that looks for agents behind everything.

    Quote
    we have the intelligence to figure out the deepest laws that govern our universe,


    I though you said souls give us morality, not intelligence? It is clear that intelligence is dependent on how developed the brain is.

    Quote
    we care about what happens to people on the other side of the planet, we love people who are not related to us, we experience beautiful emotions,


    Again, how do you know that is exclusive to humans?

    Quote
    we have detailed moral codes on what's right and wrong.


    Other great apes can make judgements about fairness, they can offer help to both other apes and other animals, even when there is no reward for them, they have consciences, they show awareness of 'obligations', they repay favours etc. Morality isn't limited to humans.

    Quote
    In addition we grow, we change, we learn, we become different - we get better. Other animals just tend to stay the same.


    But other animals do all of what you just mentioned.  Huh?

    Quote
    I can't prove any of this is because of a soul (or indeed whether the soul affects our intelligence in a positive manner), but i can't help but think there is something special within us humans that makes us stand out rather than a few genetic changes compared to apes.


    Why, because genetic changes aren't enough? Because man is not capable of beauty without some supernatural aid? What would happen if we lose our souls, would we all become rapists/murderers who are incapable of adding 2+2? I've said it before and I'll say it again - stop making nature and humanity vile!
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #53 - May 11, 2010, 07:22 PM
    Just read this article and tell me it doesn't bring chills to your spine:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/29/the-story-behind-national_n_338120.html

  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #54 - May 11, 2010, 07:32 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on May 11, 2010, 07:19 PM
    Why, because genetic changes aren't enough? Because man is not capable of beauty without some supernatural aid? What would happen if we lose our souls, would we all become rapists/murderers who are incapable of adding 2+2? I've said it before and I'll say it again - stop making nature and humanity vile!


    i didn't say we'd become rapists/murderers - we'd perhaps just become like regular animals - those dudes (apes etc.) are not vile. all i'm saying is that i think it's a 'soul' that makes us special - it's a personal opinion.



    ''But other animals do all of what you just mentioned''

    I meant 'we grow, we change, we learn, we become different - we get better' as humanity over the course of history whereas other animals it seems tend to stay the same.


    In addition, to answer one of your other questions i think the soul affects our intelligence in a positive manner. like i said these are just personal thoughts of mine.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #55 - May 11, 2010, 07:33 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 11, 2010, 06:40 PM
    what BD said ^^

    and no need to get all huffy - it's just my personal opinion


    I'm not huffy. I am calm.  Afro Also, what BD said isn't exactly a compliment...
    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #56 - May 11, 2010, 07:36 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 11, 2010, 07:22 PM
    Just read this article and tell me it doesn't bring chills to your spine:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/29/the-story-behind-national_n_338120.html

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    those chimps are probably thinking 'what the heck is going on?'
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #57 - May 11, 2010, 07:39 PM
    Quote from: Ephemeral on May 11, 2010, 07:33 PM
    I'm not huffy. I am calm.  Afro Also, what BD said isn't exactly a compliment...


    i was just kidding around..... Smiley
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #58 - May 11, 2010, 07:40 PM
    *sssssh* quiet Ephemeral!!!


    OF COURSE IT'S A COMPLIMENT ABU YUNUS hehe (please don't chop my head off).

    No but in all seriousness, I get where AY is coming from because honestly he can either give contrived answers or he can simply say "look I have faith. What more do you want me to say?" I know that a lot of people won't be happy with that answer, me included, but I get it. It's better than getting some bullshit apologetic answer. At least he has tried to understand different point of views and sure he doesn't agree. He can't prove his POV and the man knows enough about science to know what constitutes as evidence (even though he is "apprehensive" about theory of evolution). Quite frankly I think he has more rational and evolved views than many other theists. If I was in his position I would also have to say I have faith, I understand where you are coming from, it makes sense but I disagree. I trust my instincts and I feel that I am right about this.

    ------------------------------

    Excuse me language, but why the fuck am I defending a musluman? :S
  • Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
     Reply #59 - May 11, 2010, 07:41 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 11, 2010, 07:36 PM
    those chimps are probably thinking 'what the heck is going on?'


    lol

    I'll let that one slide (disrespecting my distant cousins like that). Did you read the article btw?  
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