religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the

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- stevevargas
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religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
OP - May 09, 2010, 12:50 PM

any one can give example of world that have had existed in human history and has evolved morally without the believe in god or without following organized religion.
Certainly there was no or little scientific knowledge couple of centuries back,so a threat of god or a power was necessary at that time to stop or counter the evill instincts of humans,like lust,love of power.so it will be fair if we think that certainly religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful(to some extent) society.so was there really a religion needed as we can see it was islam which made arabs stop burrying their girls alive, religion which even by force maintained a more or less better society or helped homosapiens evolve (considering evolution) into better humans with some morals even if they were dictated by unseen god or selfcreated?
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #1 - May 09, 2010, 12:58 PM

Humans dont have evil instincts... we just have instincts.

Organized religion is not more or less moral then any other organisation. Its as moral as the people that are representing it.

more to follow...

"We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
"Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
"there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
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Reply #2 - May 09, 2010, 02:40 PM

Quote
any one can give example of world that have had existed in human history and has evolved morally without the believe in god or without following organized religion.

From my understanding, the anarchists of Spain during the Civil War abandoned religion altogether and were very ethical and cared about each other, etc. better than any society before them.
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #3 - May 09, 2010, 02:43 PM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 09, 2010, 12:50 PM
any one can give example of world that have had existed in human history and has evolved morally without the believe in god or without following organized religion.

Yeah, sure.
The best there is.
Modern day secular democracies.
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #4 - May 09, 2010, 02:49 PM

Quote from: Abood on May 09, 2010, 02:40 PM
From my understanding, the anarchists of Spain during the Civil War abandoned religion altogether and were very ethical and cared about each other, etc. better than any society before them.

i have been to spain dude and in general people dont talk about anarchists in good word of mouth.they burned churches and mosques(that isnt peaceful) they talked about fraternity but killed any one who they feared to be supporting franco.whatever that kind of society was it was a war and ppl do say there that they didnt support war that broke out in 1936.(majority).
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #5 - May 09, 2010, 03:01 PM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 09, 2010, 12:50 PM
any one can give example of world that have had existed in human history and has evolved morally without the believe in god or without following organized religion.
Certainly there was no or little scientific knowledge couple of centuries back,so a threat of god or a power was necessary at that time to stop or counter the evill instincts of humans,like lust,love of power.so it will be fair if we think that certainly religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful(to some extent) society.so was there really a religion needed as we can see it was islam which made arabs stop burrying their girls alive, religion which even by force maintained a more or less better society or helped homosapiens evolve (considering evolution) into better humans with some morals even if they were dictated by unseen god or selfcreated?

If religion was needed on a practical level to enforce social norms it is no longer needed and we can safely discard it now. Religion has already been 'figured out' to use a game theory idea. Its flaws are already exposed in terms of it's divinity and the paradoxes it creates. If religion isn't divine then it's claim to a moral system is no more valid then my own claim to have a moral system. The difference is my moral system is truer because I won't claim to speak for a invisible all knowing God. Those who claim religion invented morality conveniently ignore the very decidedly immoral actions that religion also advocates, based on the practicality of having the fear of an all knowing all powerful God torture you for eternity for disobeying what some random person says to do.

It is time to bury the ghost of religion and just accept the truth for what it is.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #6 - May 09, 2010, 03:05 PM

Religion is over its time for secular humanism to take its place. Let's move forward and not backward please. Religion had its shot, it just doesn't work anymore, keep it in the private sphere please. Along with new age mysticism, yoga and pop tarts. IE whatever makes you happy.
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #7 - May 09, 2010, 05:47 PM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 09, 2010, 02:49 PM
i have been to spain dude and in general people dont talk about anarchists in good word of mouth.they burned churches and mosques(that isnt peaceful) they talked about fraternity but killed any one who they feared to be supporting franco.whatever that kind of society was it was a war and ppl do say there that they didnt support war that broke out in 1936.(majority).

That's a load of rubbish. If the anarchists were so despised, why is the CNT, the grassroots, radical union that brought about anarchism during the Civil War, still strong and popular in Spain?

Read about the Spanish anarchists objectively instead of listening to a bunch of anti-workerists. They didn't even kill Francoists who surrendered.
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #8 - May 09, 2010, 05:52 PM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 09, 2010, 12:50 PM
any one can give example of world that have had existed in human history and has evolved morally without the believe in god or without following organized religion.

Does that prove we need organised religion?
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #9 - May 10, 2010, 07:17 AM

hassan: i was asking about was there a real need in human history of religion for uncivilized people falling easy prey to their evil instincts to maintain a just society.and didnt it helped out.we can leave religion fine.but where will our morals come from?
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #10 - May 10, 2010, 07:23 AM

Quote from: Abood on May 09, 2010, 05:47 PM

Read about the Spanish anarchists objectively instead of listening to a bunch of anti-workers. They didn't even kill Francois's who surrendered.

i do admire the objectives for which proletarians of Spain fought and withstood Franco and government.but i think an anarchist society is more difficult to manage and think of in a country like pakistan. anarchist society to be formed requires a much educated people who can manage themselves and can stop their evil instincts getting on them
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #11 - May 10, 2010, 07:27 AM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 10, 2010, 07:17 AM
hassan: i was asking about was there a real need in human history of religion for uncivilized people falling easy prey to their evil instincts to maintain a just society.and didnt it helped out.we can leave religion fine.but where will our morals come from?

Where our morals have always come from - ourselves.

Have you looked at some of the videos posted for you?

Here is one about this question of morality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MhkyDnVEKk
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #12 - May 10, 2010, 07:33 AM

There was in the past a need for it. For example the Jews started religion slowly as a way to take care of themselves, it became a religion of taking care of the poor. But to say morals come from religion doesn't say much, since there are many things in the scriptures that we disagree with, even though they are moral laws. Morals change, moral values come from humans.

We had slavery in the past, it was seen as morally OK. A God-given right if you ask some people. That's the problem with moral with scripture, not only are the man made (since I dont believe them to be divine) but they get this God-given right stamp of approval. It means these morals will never change even though the rest of the world find them abhorant, like stoning, amputations etc

There are many different religions, each with a moral construct. Where does these morals come from? One can not say one religion is divine and therefore the morals are also divine and then in the same breath say that religion is not divine and therefore their morals are not divine. They are man-made.

Some might not believe in religion, but in God, and say we got our morals from God. But they need to prove this, is this a part in our body? If so, how come our morals change?
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #13 - May 10, 2010, 07:37 AM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 10, 2010, 07:17 AM
we can leave religion fine.but where will our morals come from?

Do you think that religion supplies us with morals?
You couldn't be more wrong.

Consider this:

1. Doing good because of Jannah. Motivation: reward; this is immoral
2. Doing good because of Jahannam. Motivation: fear; this is immoral too

3. Doing good for the sake of it. Motivation: because it is the right thing to do; this is the only true moral stance

The only way to show true respect for God (and hence be truly moral) is to act morally while ignoring god's existence.

To quote BlackDog:
"The highest morals comes from:

Believing that you are not watched.

You will not be judged.

Nobody will find out.

And you are aware that the good action you choose is not in your favour really (like stealing) and you understand the evolutionary reason why you should do the "bad" action.

You are not afraid of authority, either supernatural or natural."

But you still do the right thing because its the right thing to do.
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #14 - May 10, 2010, 07:39 AM

btw I still think that is something that is difficult to do. That moral stance and following it up. Because there is nobody there to pat you on the back either. Morally you shouldn't even tell people about it, or at least not brag. Or judge other and emotionally blackmail them to do the same, maybe say it in a kind way or some other way and raise consciousness.
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #15 - May 10, 2010, 07:42 AM

but is it a necessity of an authority over human beings to control them.certainly in more civilised countries it is not thought likewise but in more tribalistic northern waziristan of pakistan or whatever part of world it is.what about mass of uneducated people they will not accept anarchy.threat of power is necessary for them?
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #16 - May 10, 2010, 07:48 AM

Yes but then we should focus on educating them, how ever long this takes. Otherwise some douche bag will control the mass of people under threat of authority. It's not a long term solution. Look at Europe and compare it to how it is now to how it was under the Dark Ages.

Besides it doesn't mean religion is true, any kind of ideology will do; Nazism, communism, and fascism. It’s also condescending, because it makes them look like animals that can not reach our “magnificence”.
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter
Reply #17 - May 10, 2010, 07:49 AM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 10, 2010, 07:42 AM
but is it a necessity of an authority over human beings to control them.certainly in more civilised countries it is not thought likewise but in more tribalistic northern waziristan of pakistan or whatever part of world it is.what about mass of uneducated people they will not accept anarchy.threat of power is necessary for them?

Are you suggesting that people in Northern Waziristan are incapable of thinking for themselves and will always have to suffer brutal authoritarianism and be treated as lesser human beings than those 'superior' human beings in the West?
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #18 - May 10, 2010, 07:50 AM

Wow Hassan! Same time same mind.

Please stop copying me mate.
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter
Reply #19 - May 10, 2010, 07:51 AM

I can't help it - you are just awesome
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Reply #20 - May 10, 2010, 07:52 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on May 10, 2010, 07:39 AM
Morally you shouldn't even tell people about it, or at least not brag. Or judge other and emotionally blackmail them to do the same, maybe say it in a kind way or some other way and raise consciousness.

The inspired nafs in Sufism:

   1. Ta'Jeel or Swiftness. A good deed must be done immediately and there should be no laziness.
   2. Tehqeer or Contempt. You must look at your good acts with contempt otherwise you will become self-righteous.
   3. Ikhfa or Secrecy. You must keep your good acts secret otherwise people will praise you and it will make you self-righteous.
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #21 - May 10, 2010, 07:53 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 10, 2010, 07:51 AM
I can't help it - you are just awesome

haha you too
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #22 - May 10, 2010, 07:54 AM

Quote from: Kenan on May 10, 2010, 07:52 AM
The inspired nafs in Sufism:

   1. Ta'Jeel or Swiftness. A good deed must be done immediately and there should be no laziness.
   2. Tehqeer or Contempt. You must look at your good acts with contempt otherwise you will become self-righteous.
   3. Ikhfa or Secrecy. You must keep your good acts secret otherwise people will praise you and it will make you self-righteous.

Yeah in the words of Imam Ali, one hand should not know what the other hand does... er i think i just butchered the quote, bascially keep the shit secret
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #23 - May 10, 2010, 07:56 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 10, 2010, 07:49 AM
Are you suggesting that people in Northern Waziristan are incapable of thinking for themselves and will always have to suffer brutal authoritarianism and be treated as lesser human beings than those 'superior' human beings in the West?

they dont think about a society being formed out of religion and no matter how many abundance of logics and reasons u put against them.they will still think morals taught by religion as legitimate and that they cant be formed or exist in society without religion dictating them.

suicide bombers? flogging their women.do you think they will listen to u
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #24 - May 10, 2010, 07:59 AM

BUt why does that matter to you stevevargas? How does that affect your life or your moral values? Or what you choose to believe in?
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #25 - May 10, 2010, 08:01 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 10, 2010, 07:49 AM
Are you suggesting that people in Northern Waziristan are incapable of thinking for themselves and will always have to suffer brutal authoritarianism and be treated as lesser human beings than those 'superior' human beings in the West?

You know funnily enough this exactly is the position of cultural relativists in the West.
Basically "we Westerners" are able to rationally challenge out views and change them accordingly but Muslims are unable to do the same because they are "different" and they will always need a higher authority provided by their culture/religion.
Borderline racism if you ask me.
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter
Reply #26 - May 10, 2010, 08:02 AM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 10, 2010, 07:56 AM

they dont think about a society being formed out of religion and no matter how many abundance of logics and reasons u put against them.they will still think morals taught by religion as legitimate and that they cant be formed or exist in society without religion dictating them.

suicide bombers? flogging their women.do you think they will listen to u

You are doing them a great disservice. If all people thought like that in the past, then no change for the better would ever happen.
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Reply #27 - May 10, 2010, 08:03 AM

Quote from: Kenan on May 10, 2010, 08:01 AM
You know funnily enough this exactly is the position of cultural relativists in the West.
Basically "we Westerners" are able to rationally challenge out views and change them accordingly but Muslims are unable to do the same because they are "different" and they will always need a higher authority provided by their culture/religion.
Borderline racism if you ask me.

Indeed!
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #28 - May 10, 2010, 08:04 AM

blackdog: it certainly affects me.their beleives made them crazy enough to blow themsleves in public it is constant threat for us to go into markets.(thats how they are affecting our daily life).they propose shairah to be imposed.and they did it in swat a year ago that was brutal. did u saw them flogging a women in street.i m wooried about ignorant masses dwelling in these areas who dont need any argument against religion no matter how strong it is
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Re: religion helped men in creating and holding a peaceful society, or counter the
Reply #29 - May 10, 2010, 08:05 AM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 10, 2010, 08:04 AM
blackdog: it certainly affects me.their beleives made them crazy enough to blow themsleves in public it is constant threat for us to go into markets.(thats how they are affecting our daily life).they propose shairah to be imposed.and they did it in swat a year ago that was brutal. did u saw them flogging a women in street.i m wooried about ignorant masses dwelling in these areas who dont need any argument against religion no matter how strong it is

OK I see what you mean. But what I'm saying is this relevant to your quest today? For the purpose of joining this forum?
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