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Theme Changer

 Topic: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.

 (Read 9842 times)
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  • A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     OP - May 05, 2010, 10:01 PM

    So I had something interesting happen today and I just wanted to share and hear your thoughts. Or hear about any similar experiences. Overall, I feel prettttty good about it. Forgive the length, it's the storyteller in me coming out.

    ____________________________________________________________________

    Every morning I get a ride with my neighbours (they live a few doors down). A few other kids from the neighbourhood carpool with us too. These neighbours are muslim, yes, and for as long as I've known them (6 years) I've thought they were fairly religious people.

    Now first I should tell you that since becoming an Atheist, I haven't really kept it from my friends--though there are exceptions. I'm just a fairly outspoken person. I can't help it.  However, though I can be rash, I'm not entirely stupid.

    So during the car-ride this morning, I had no intention of telling them or anyone who has contact with my family and could possibly "out me" so to speak.

    But something interesting happened during this car-ride.

    Her brother was driving us for one. It was just me, him, and the girl who I shall call "Jane." He will be "Cat."

    Now we got to talking about university. Cat will be attending Uni next year and we're both interested in the same field of study so I asked him some questions regarding his plans. When he asked me what I would like to get into after high-school, I gave a few examples: "Evolutionary biology" "Zoology" "biotechnology" or "Genetics."

    He nodded and said, "How are you going to sell that [evolutionary biology] to your parents?"

    So I explained that my parents already know I believe in evolution and it isn't a problem to me at all. More questions were asked, with which I won't bore you.
    Eventually, Jane who didn't really believe we could come from animals asked if I believed in God.

    This made me freeze. Normally, with ease and fluidity I would have brushed it off. I've gotten rusty in the facade i've built up over years of practice.  I didn't answer, I just asked her if she did.

    This made Cat scoff. "Jane, you never pray, you don't read the Quran, how can you call yourself a Muslim anyway?"

    Now I am certain that Cat is probably a closet atheist or even an agnostic. I have good hunches about these things and I've suspected for some time. He wouldn't confirm or deny it. He's evasive and always elusive like that. The only thing he admitted was. "There are things science can't answer."

    When I said, "But what answers have religion given that are sufficient instead?" He just laughed and shook his head, refusing to answer.

    When we arrived at school, I insured him that the conversation wasn't over and I'd be hounding him on the topic again. Unfortunately he said, "I'm never driving you to school again," but I'm hoping he's kidding about that.

    The story isn't over.

    It turned out, as I found out later when we spoke, that Jane never prays. She fasts but doesn't even pray. so it's worthless really. Nonetheless she claims to believe in God and believes the Quran is true. She  admitted that it was only "Just in case."

     I translate it to that that ever-present fear of hellfire and the human desire for
    "something more after this."

    I admitted eventually that I was an atheist. I asked if she hated me now, feeling worried but jubilant at just being able to say it out loud.  

    "No," She said. "I don't hate you. I don't hate gays, jews, christians, whatever. Why should I hate you now?"

    This made me sad. "But gays and apostates are killed and Jews and Christians are tolerated," I wanted to say.

    Nonetheless, we talked for a little time and by the end of it she realized I wasn't taking a baseless position, that I knew a little bit about what I was talking. I, being the oh-so-tactful person I am, made some comments regarding the invalidity of the Quran. Everything else was apparently fine. Even disbelieving was okay to her. But me saying that the Quran isn't actually preserved in purity or isn't perfect? Oh, hell no.

    "Don't go there," She said, laughing. "Don't go there."

    I grinned and tried to talk over her. She listened. I could see the wheels churning. Could see that look a person gets who's thinking hard, that weak expression of doubt. But she claimed to have no doubts.

    "I'm just lazy," She claimed. "My mother wasn't religious either in her youth. It took her father's death to push her forward into religiosity."

    "Exactly," I claimed. "It's just fear of death, fear of hell that makes anyone believe in any religion. Don't you see that the fear makes you cling on to the religion for dear life?"

    She thought for a second, but we were interrupted and we both had to go to class.
    After-school, the conversation continued a little. I could tell she wasn't judging me whatsoever for being who I am and I was happy because of this. It gives me hope. She reminds me of myself...only a 4 year younger version of me based on her thoughts.

    I feel that there are more Muslims who just need a push in the right direction. I'm not saying atheism is that direction. I just think that a lot of young Muslims (especially in non-Muslim countries) feel that way. It is just in their early adulthood that I find most of them begin to wallow in the depths of religion. If I could just affect one person, would that be so bad?

    Somehow a part of me doesn't want to kill her faith and yet it would be so easy. Easier than killing a fly almost--those you have to chase around. Perhaps I shouldn’t use the word “kill”. Maybe I should just say, “ruin.” But In my mind I’m not ruining anything precious, and in reality, I would actually be crushing her faith. Yes, “kill” seems to be the right word. For now.

     I can't say I respect her faith or anyone's faith (in terms of religion), but I respect her right to have that faith.

    Yet, today I am immensely happy because it made me feel hope (to a certain degree) that perhaps I won't be alienated entirely by my parents when and if I tell them. I hope there are others out there like that. I hope that this generation can create some actual change. I hope that her, and the others, are pushed in the right direction ( away from Islam) and do not succumb to the hypnotism of Islam by the death of a family member, as Cat's mom did, or sheer fear of nothingness after death.

    There are things more powerful than that, and I believe you just need to point a person in that direction for them to see it.

    As for Cat, I know I will be having a conversation or two with him sometime soon. At least I hope. Perhaps I can get him to admit his atheism. Perhaps not.

    There is just so much joy in saying something aloud, simply because I can. I shouldn't feel this happy about simply having stated my own position on something. I should have been able to state it in the first place. But that isn't the world we live in unfortunately.

     I hope, I hope, I hope--been using that a lot--that sometime in the future others won't have to feel such immense joy in taking what should be an obvious liberty.



    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #1 - May 05, 2010, 10:07 PM


    I can't believe you are 16 or 17 years of age.

    You make me feel ashamed for being such a witless skirt-chasing rascal when I was that old.

    What are you going to spend your Nobel Prize money on when you're 35 years old  Huh?

    Oh, nice story too. You see, you're not so alone in your way of seeing things, are you? Its just that Islam creates this veneer, this pretence coating that inhibits like minded souls making common cause. But when the air of free thought enters, and inhibition is weakened, a meeting of minds and experience is always possible.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #2 - May 05, 2010, 10:07 PM


    And don't say you'll spend your Nobel Prize money on chocolate  Angry


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #3 - May 05, 2010, 10:11 PM

    Quote
    are pushed in the right direction ( away from Islam) and do not succumb to the hypnotism of Islam by the death of a family member, as Cat's mom did, or sheer fear of nothingness after death.


    'the hypnotism of Islam' is a great way of describing it  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #4 - May 05, 2010, 10:17 PM

    Quote
    Somehow a part of me doesn't want to kill her faith and yet it would be so easy. Easier than killing a fly almost--those you have to chase around. Perhaps I shouldn’t use the word “kill”. Maybe I should just say, “ruin.” But In my mind I’m not ruining anything precious, and in reality, I would actually be crushing her faith. Yes, “kill” seems to be the right word. For now.


    The other thing is that it takes time for people to reckon with their faith. I honestly believe that it is possible to plant seeds in believers mind that bloom suddenly, after they have been watered, fertilised, and fed by time and experience, long after a conversation, discussion, or confrontation.

    Not that you should seek to do this. But the possibility of there being something different, is such a powerful idea, and when it is lodged in the mind, it can grow sub-consciously, on some level, until it takes over. This is something I have experienced, and seen in others.

    Yes, there is hope, especially with folks like you around  Afro

    (I like the image of religious faith as a tricky little spider crawling around - and how it can be killed. Although sometimes it is a deadly tarantula or venomous snake that can be dangerous and out of control too. It all depends on the context.)


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #5 - May 05, 2010, 10:25 PM

    Mate , im not even  an  ex muslim and that story ( and the way you expressed it ) touched me. I think Ive said this in previous threads but there has to be thousands upon thousands who think the same as you but fear of castigation and /or rejection makes people afraid of voicing it.  
    You are only 17 ? Then you, sir, I dearly hope , are the future.;
    great post

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #6 - May 05, 2010, 10:32 PM

    Moving story Ephemeral. I can relate to it. I once risked it and admitted my atheism to a bunch of my friends. As it turned out 2 of them were atheists and another one was a "Muslim with doubts". It felt so cathartic and exhilarating.

    When I was your age I had my doubts and I was not at all religious. I even questioned the existence of the Abrahamic God but I was nowhere as conversant, coherent, or confident as you are.

    BTW, do you live in the States? if so, is it Michigan? (ignore this question is you don't wanna answer)

    Once again, nice story and thanks for sharing.
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #7 - May 05, 2010, 10:36 PM

    Then you, sir, I dearly hope , are the future.;


    Ephemeral is a madam, not a sir  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #8 - May 05, 2010, 10:38 PM

    Quote
    What are you going to spend your Nobel Prize money on when you're 35 years old 


    Billy you are too kind to me  Cheesy
    I would spend my money, gained from this hypothetical nobel prize on clothes and shoes. And maybe a chanel bag? Because that's exactly how materialistic I am ^_^

    Also, you should not feel bad about skirt-chasing. I hear its all the rage nowadays, except in another way. Grin

    Quote
    And don't say you'll spend your Nobel Prize money on chocolate  Angry


    But, but...not even:


    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #9 - May 05, 2010, 10:41 PM

    I honestly believe that it is possible to plant seeds in believers mind that bloom suddenly, after they have been watered, fertilised, and fed by time and experience, long after a conversation, discussion, or confrontation.

    Not that you should seek to do this.



    I seek, Billy, I seek. I want to plant major seeds that turn into blooming flowering plants and then spread their pollen everywhere!!! Cheesy

    I like your analysis of my words btw. You're perceptive.

    Quote
    BTW, do you live in the States? if so, is it Michigan? (ignore this question is you don't wanna answer)

    Once again, nice story and thanks for sharing.


    Nope, read my intro in the introduction section if you want. I actually live in Canada, fairly near the great lakes though so michigans not too far. Why the enquiry?

    Thanks for reading and commenting, I appreciate it!

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #10 - May 05, 2010, 10:44 PM

    Nice little story Ephemeral.  Afro

    So it looks like you are 4 years more mature for your age.  Afro

    I also faced the "just in case" argument from my brother initially.  The same old Pascal's Wager.
    It seems the fear of eternal torment in hell is pretty effective.  015
    It is no surprise that most of the remaining religions today have evolved all these effective adaptations.

    Regarding the 'killing' of someone else's faith, I also worry about it.  Perhaps, it is best if they think it through for themselves in their own time.  Nudging them gently (as you say) is probably the best strategy.  The shock of losing one's faith suddenly might be a little overwhelming for some.


    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #11 - May 05, 2010, 10:45 PM

    Ephemeral is a madam, not a sir  Afro

     then quadruple the respect, and sextuple the hope that she is the future!

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #12 - May 05, 2010, 11:14 PM

    Nope, read my intro in the introduction section if you want. I actually live in Canada, fairly near the great lakes though so michigans not too far. Why the enquiry?

    I did read your intro when you first posted it but for some reason I thought you were a Yank. I asked because I just wanted to know. I guessed Michigan because it's one of the few states where there are significant Muslim/Arab communities.
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #13 - May 05, 2010, 11:28 PM

    Nice story  grin12

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #14 - May 06, 2010, 12:08 AM

    Great story Ephemeral. yes

    I agree that there are many people who hold on to faith on a "just in case" basis. Thing is, they are all doing it with a faith they were indoctrinated into from birth... so it can be helpful to ask them if they can imagine that if they were born into another religion or culture, if they'd feel the same about that one. This usually makes them start thinking a bit more analytically about the things they may have otherwise just taken for granted, that their religion is the "one true correct" one. It shows the tribalistic mentality upon which religion plays.

    Also, I liked how you brought up the fear of death issue. I really commend you for bringing this up with your friends. That can be the hardest thing to do.  hugs

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #15 - May 06, 2010, 01:02 AM

    great story ! u know how i think !

    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #16 - May 06, 2010, 01:24 AM

    Hahaha, Hershey's Cookies 'n' Creme has to be one of the best chocolates ever.

    As for the story... My sister was a conservative Muslim when we were in high school but became atheist after moving to the US and studying biology for a couple of semesters. I also found out that some of my friends are more liberal now that they moved to the West. You could call them reformist Muslims. It's all about the exposure, really. And the thing is, even though everything is available on the Internet, most people don't really do independent research. It takes living experiences to change people. I think the best thing that could happen is have immigrants who have been influenced by their respective secular countries to go back to their religious home countries and reform them.
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #17 - May 06, 2010, 01:32 AM

    it can be helpful to ask them if they can imagine that if they were born into another religion or culture, if they'd feel the same about that one.


    thanks! That definitely always got me thinking so I'll be sure to bring it up.

    Quote
    Also, I liked how you brought up the fear of death issue. I really commend you for bringing this up with your friends. That can be the hardest thing to do.  hugs


    I bring it up all the time. Funny thing is, i know most people my age don't care, but everyone I talk to about religion/God always looks very interested because these are the big questions of life. It's just they don't usually have anything interesting to say.  My one friend ( I should really say acquaintance because she really pisses me off and I try to avoid her ) today actually suggested that Osama Bin Laden "At least instilled some fear" into the West.

    I was like..."You're serious? What exactly do you think they fear from Islamists like that anyway? Trust me it isn't their amazing power, it's the threat their ideologies pose to the freedom and liberty granted by western democracy...such as freedom of speech."

    and I won't even add what her reply to that was.

    Quote

    great story ! u know how i think !


    Yes, even though you're mean to me.  Cry
    *whip*




    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #18 - May 06, 2010, 01:40 AM

    Hahaha, Hershey's Cookies 'n' Creme has to be one of the best chocolates ever


    Now that you agree with me, you are God. I will pray to you. ;P

    Quote

    it takes living experiences to change people


    truer words have never been said. What sorts of experiences actually work on individuals may differ.

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #19 - May 06, 2010, 04:15 PM

    That's great Ehpemeral.   Afro

    Sometimes it only take a little bit of doubt for people to start thinking, but you better hope it doesn't have the opposite effect and turn the girl in a very religious Muslim (because of gulit).

  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #20 - May 06, 2010, 04:21 PM

    I can't believe you are 16 or 17 years of age.

    You make me feel ashamed for being such a witless skirt-chasing rascal when I was that old.

    What are you going to spend your Nobel Prize money on when you're 35 years old  Huh?

    Oh, nice story too. You see, you're not so alone in your way of seeing things, are you? Its just that Islam creates this veneer, this pretence coating that inhibits like minded souls making common cause. But when the air of free thought enters, and inhibition is weakened, a meeting of minds and experience is always possible.


    RASCAL! RAPSCALLION! ROGUE!

    Awesome story btw Ephemeral. You are a very intelligent young lady Smiley
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #21 - May 06, 2010, 04:34 PM

    BORING!

    Lol, just messing! Don't eat me!

    On my very first day as a non-believer, I told a group of close friends. When I explained why, most of them agreed with what I was saying, there and then. I was like, wow, that was easy! And all the arguments I've made since then, they've agreed with pretty much all of them. But still, they say they believe. They eat haraam food now, they don't pray, or read the qur'an, or go to the mosque.... but still they say that Allah exists. And it frustrated me for a while, because when I ask them why, they said just in case. But now it doesn't bother me, as long as they are not practising Islam, I don't care what they believe, let them have their comfort.

    It's different with parents though, especially practising parents like mine, who could probably not even conceive Islam being false. The idea that your child is going to burn in hell for eternity is not a nice one for any parent, no matter how stupid it may appear to you.  For that reason, I don't intend to tell my parents. Right now, they know I don't practise, and they leave me be, probably thinking that I will become 'straight' on my own. So I see no reason to tell them I'm not a Muslim any more. But if push comes to shove and they try to force Islam on me, as much as I care for them, I'm going to have to tell them. I'm not going to give up my freedom. Hopefully it won't have to come to that.
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #22 - May 06, 2010, 08:27 PM

    Quote
    BORING!


    *puts away any thought of posting in the future...*

    Quote
    When I explained why, most of them agreed with what I was saying, there and then. I was like, wow, that was easy! And all the arguments I've made since then, they've agreed with pretty much all of them. But still, they say they believe. They eat haraam food now, they don't pray, or read the qur'an, or go to the mosque.... but still they say that Allah exists


    Wow, where do you live?Or lived then?

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #23 - May 06, 2010, 08:37 PM

    *puts away any thought of posting in the future...*


    Woooooo!

    Nah, keep writing, you are quite articulate and intelligent for a teenager. Obviously not to the same extent as me, but then again, who is?  cool2


    Quote
    Wow, where do you live?Or lived then?


    In Bradistan. Still do. It's only been 2 and a half months since my apostasy. Was quite a sudden thing too.
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #24 - May 06, 2010, 08:42 PM

    Quote
    Woooooo!

    Nah, keep writing, you are quite articulate and intelligent for a teenager. Obviously not to the same extent as me, but then again, who is?  cool2


    Yes of course, I was so crushed that your words made me decide to quit. thank you, your royal highness for your encouragement.  Roll Eyes

    your narcissism is unbecoming. Smiley
    I'll pass it off as misfired sarcasm.

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #25 - May 06, 2010, 08:48 PM

    Yes of course, I was so crushed that your words made me decide to quit. thank you, your royal highness for your encouragement.  Roll Eyes

    your narcissism is unbecoming. Smiley
    I'll pass it off as misfired sarcasm.


    I'm sorry, I'm not narcisstistic but... when you're as awesome as I am, it's hard to be modest. whistling2 I actually amaze myself sometimes.

    Oh look, a mirror. Hello you handsome thing. cool2
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #26 - May 06, 2010, 08:48 PM

    Quote
    I'll pass it off as misfired sarcasm.


     Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #27 - May 06, 2010, 08:52 PM

    Psst, Ephemeral. A little tip - don't take me too seriously, I don't. I'm full of crap. Hope this clears things up.  Wink
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #28 - May 06, 2010, 08:56 PM

    I'm sorry, I'm not narcisstistic but... when you're as awesome as I am, it's hard to be modest. whistling2 I actually amaze myself sometimes.

    Oh look, a mirror. Hello you handsome thing. cool2


    All talk and no action. Follow up and show us a pic...post in the "post a picture of yourself" thread. You could take one of those mirror pics if you'd like.

    Quote
    Psst, Ephemeral. A little tip - don't take me too seriously, I don't. I'm full of crap. Hope this clears things up.  Wink


    No worries, I really wasn't really taking you seriously.  Doesn't mean you don't annoy me. Perhaps its because I'm equally as horrid.

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: A story touching on liberty, joy and maybe even a little hope.
     Reply #29 - May 06, 2010, 09:21 PM

    Am I missing something here? Huh?
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