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Theme Changer

 Topic: Muslim Philosophers

 (Read 3354 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Muslim Philosophers
     OP - August 07, 2009, 10:29 AM

    My apologies if this discussion has taken place previously. When I was a muslim I'd often hear about the muslimm philosophers such as Al-Kindi, Al-Farrabi, Ibn Sina and famously Ibn Rushd. I know that alot of their thought was influenced by the writings of Plato and Aristotle. I am also aware that at some point in Islamic history the Sunni schools largely abandoned the philosophical pursuit due to the writings of Al-Ghazali. I am aware that the above philosophers had more of an impact on the west than on the muslims themselves. Al-Ghazali put a stop to speculative theology through the means of philosophy and instead reverted back to the Quran and Hadith. My question is, was this the right move and did this contribute to the stagnation of Islamic civilisation? Also do you think that these philosophers and scientists had this zeal because of Islamic sources and because they were muslims or inspite of Islam and being muslim and that their thought was mainly the result of Greek philosophy?
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #1 - August 09, 2009, 01:00 AM

    Of course the full-stop on the pursuit of knowledge in favor of dogma, contributed to the stagnation of the islamic world. However, it did contribute to the survival of islam.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #2 - August 13, 2009, 07:03 AM

    Anyone?
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #3 - August 13, 2009, 07:49 AM

    Excellent thread Toolong (you need a shorter name)

    The advancements in science and knowledge took place in spite of Islam rather than as a result of Islam. Many of the great translators were Christians and Jews and many of the the Muslim philosophers were agnostics, i.e Rumi, Ibn al Arabi etc. The advancements were however linked to the fact that Baghdad and Andalucia were thrived economic centers in themselves, fuelled by the African slave trade in the case of Baghdad. However, even in Baghdad the knowledge always remained in the hands of the very few and was never transmitted on mass. Hence after the sacking of Baghdad in 1256 all was lost.

    The scientists and philosophers faced constant resistence from the Ulema. Ghazali labelled maths 'the devils work'. Nothing has changed there.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #4 - August 13, 2009, 08:14 AM

    "Excellent thread Toolong (you need a shorter name)

    The advancements in science and knowledge took place in spite of Islam rather than as a result of Islam. Many of the great translators were Christians and Jews and many of the the Muslim philosophers were agnostics, i.e Rumi, Ibn al Arabi etc. The advancements were however linked to the fact that Baghdad and Andalucia were thrived economic centers in themselves, fuelled by the African slave trade in the case of Baghdad. However, even in Baghdad the knowledge always remained in the hands of the very few and was never transmitted on mass. Hence after the sacking of Baghdad in 1256 all was lost.

    The scientists and philosophers faced constant resistence from the Ulema. Ghazali labelled maths 'the devils work'. Nothing has changed there."

    I agree with you there, and I also reckon that the muslims who keep talking about these scholars don't realise that these people were in a minority and were classed as heretics. Yes they were part of the "islamic civilisation" but their thoughts were not because of islam but inspite of it. Ghazali just came along and stagnated the who enterprise.
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #5 - August 13, 2009, 08:35 AM

    Also, in places like syria children are taught great Jewish scholars like Maimonides were Muslim, Lol

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #6 - August 13, 2009, 08:44 AM

    LOL! I'm not surprised though. In a lecture by Hamza Yusuf I was listening to once, he talked about the trial of Socrates and said "Allah ho Alam he could have been an ancient european prophet". Won't be long now when Plato and Aristotle will be joining the ranks of the "Prophets". In 1000 years from now, muslims will be remembering Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett and Harris by saying that these people were "Muslim heretics!" Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #7 - August 13, 2009, 08:49 AM

    Yeah and George Galloway will be made into a Prophet too.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #8 - August 13, 2009, 09:01 AM

    "Yeah and George Galloway will be made into a Prophet too."

    Nah. Not likely, remember prophethood ended with Mo!
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #9 - August 13, 2009, 09:03 AM

    Or at least a Sheikh ul Islam.

    He had the right idea though, stick up for Muslims and get a yourself a hot Palestinian bird and lots of money from the Gulf

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #10 - August 13, 2009, 09:15 AM

    The guy did ridicule himself on Big Brother!
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #11 - August 13, 2009, 10:04 AM

    My apologies if this discussion has taken place previously. When I was a muslim I'd often hear about the muslimm philosophers such as Al-Kindi, Al-Farrabi, Ibn Sina and famously Ibn Rushd. I know that alot of their thought was influenced by the writings of Plato and Aristotle. I am also aware that at some point in Islamic history the Sunni schools largely abandoned the philosophical pursuit due to the writings of Al-Ghazali. I am aware that the above philosophers had more of an impact on the west than on the muslims themselves. Al-Ghazali put a stop to speculative theology through the means of philosophy and instead reverted back to the Quran and Hadith. My question is, was this the right move and did this contribute to the stagnation of Islamic civilisation? Also do you think that these philosophers and scientists had this zeal because of Islamic sources and because they were muslims or inspite of Islam and being muslim and that their thought was mainly the result of Greek philosophy?


    During the height of Islamic Philosophy and Science there was a great deal of freedom of thought. But the struggle between the more dogmatic elements was continual and eventual won out. Nevertheless, for quite a large period of human history, Islamic Civilization was the part of the world to be in.

    How much this was due to Islam itself is debatable, but I don't think that one can deny that it provided a stable, wealthy, and relatively positive environment for study - at least for a while and under more 'enlightened' rulers.
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #12 - August 13, 2009, 10:08 AM

    Of course the full-stop on the pursuit of knowledge in favor of dogma, contributed to the stagnation of the islamic world. However, it did contribute to the survival of islam.

     Cheesy

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #13 - August 13, 2009, 10:13 AM

    We are seeing the results of this "survival" today. Generally those "enlightened" rulers came from the Abassid period and some of them supported the mutazzilite position, which was thought to be a rational position. I do enjoy reading about these guys though cos it really shows what could have been.
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #14 - August 13, 2009, 10:21 AM

    I've heard that "math = devils work" line alot, is there any source on this?

    Maliki yawm ul LULZ
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #15 - August 13, 2009, 10:31 AM

    It's based on his work, in his work he basically declared mathematics to be the work of the devil, by the way he was talking about heavy abstract mathematics not practical mathematics.
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #16 - August 13, 2009, 05:37 PM

    Then there was Al-Razi, who was a blatant heretic and they knew it!
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #17 - November 07, 2012, 07:37 AM

    LOL! I'm not surprised though. In a lecture by Hamza Yusuf I was listening to once, he talked about the trial of Socrates and said "Allah ho Alam he could have been an ancient european prophet". Won't be long now when Plato and Aristotle will be joining the ranks of the "Prophets". In 1000 years from now, muslims will be remembering Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett and Harris by saying that these people were "Muslim heretics!" Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


    Thread bump for the comedy of this post by Omar Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #18 - November 09, 2012, 03:16 PM

    I was talking about Al-Gazzali by the way, I know its a post from 2009 but we never said who we were talking about lol.
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #19 - November 09, 2012, 03:24 PM

    Al Razi:

    Quote
    Of the Excellence and Praise of Reason

    The Creator (Exalted be His Name) gave and bestowed upon us Reason to the end that we might thereby attain and achieve every advantage, that lies within the nature of such as us to attain and achieve, in this world and the next. It is God’s greatest blessing to us, and there is nothing that surpasses it in procuring our advantage and profit. By Reason we are preferred above the irrational beasts, so that we rule over them and manage them, subjecting and controlling them in ways profitable alike to us and them. By Reason we reach all that raises us up, and sweetens and beautifies our life, and through it we obtain our purpose and desire. For by Reason we have comprehended the manufacture and use of ships, so that we have reached unto distant lands divided from us by the seas; by it we have achieved medicine with its many uses to the body, and all the other arts that yield us profit. By Reason we have comprehended matters obscure and remote, things that were secret and hidden from us; by it we have learned the shape of the earth and the sky, the dimension of the sun, moon and other stars, their distances and motions; by it we have achieved even the knowledge of the Almighty, our Creator, the most majestic of all that we have sought to reach and our most profitable attainment. In short, Reason is the thing without which our state would be the state of wild beasts, of children and lunatics; it is the thing whereby we picture our intellectual acts before they become manifest to the senses, so that we see them exactly as though we had sensed them, then we represent these pictures in our sensual acts so that they correspond exactly with what we have represented and imagined.

    Since this is its worth and place, its value and significance, it behoves us not to bring it down from its high rank or in any way to degrade it, neither to make it the governed seeing that it is the governor, or the controlled seeing that it is the controller, or the subject seeing that it is the sovereign; rather must we consult it in all matters, respecting it and relying upon it always, conducting our affairs as it dictates and bringing them to a stop when it so commands. We must not give Passion the mastery over it, for Passion is the blemish of Reason, clouding it and diverting it from its proper path and right purpose, preventing the reasonable man from finding the true guidance and the ultimate salvation of all his affairs. Nay, but we must discipline and subject our Passion, driving and compelling it to obey the every dictate of Reason. If we do thus, our Reason will become absolutely clear and will illuminate us with all its light, bringing us to the achievement of all that we desire to attain; and we shall be happy in God’s free gift and grace of it.


    http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=1791&Itemid=27

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #20 - November 09, 2012, 05:08 PM


    Well I definitely think it hurt Islam in the long run.
    I don't think their greatness had anything to do with Islam. Philosophy is something that any truth seeker can do and there are truth seekers in all societies in history.  Most of the great Islamic philosophers came from great cultures that were great before Islam.
    They came from Syria or Persia. Still others came from parts of Yemen or Arabia.

    It's not before Islam people were monkeys without any thoughts.

    In my view the spread of Islam led to the merging of lots of cultures and a new seeking for truth which led to an expansion of overall knowledge.  Much the same happened in other cultures and societies.

    I do have a problem with it being called 'Greek Philosophy'... unless one thinks logic, deduction, induction are 'Greek'.
    Admittedly, they did some of the best published work on the subject.  But it is not something we should think of as 'Western'.

    Al-Ghazali merely shut everything down and plunged the Muslim world into darkness for hundreds of years. Slowly killing the desire for truth and expansion of knowledge and eventually as Islam took over the society.  You don't change a society over night to be Islamic. 

  • Re: Muslim Philosophers
     Reply #21 - November 09, 2012, 05:19 PM

    Yeah guys but how funny is Omar's post, it still cracks me up Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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