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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #870 - June 17, 2010, 09:17 AM

    It could indeed by by an Arab Christian with excellent knowledge of the Qur'an and Islam and that will no doubt be the main direction of attack on it when (and if) we can get it published. (In the absence of a real argument people always resort to ad hominem.)

    My own suspicious nature keeps me scanning every word and line to see if I can get a 'feel' for who the author is. It is difficult to say for sure but I still get the sense he was a Muslim - as I said previously I have never come across Arab Christians who haven't given away some clues as to who they really are or who have such depth of knowledge and more important 'experience' and 'perspective' that someone who really was a Muslim has.

    I could be wrong of course - but it doesn't matter as the book stands on it's own merits and frankly I wish I had written it myself as a great deal of what it says is spot on and completely in line with what I myself have thought and observed.


    +1

    Me too, I have read the Arabic version of this book and I must say, it does not matter if it was written by the Pope. The author gives examples and demonstrates clearly using the Quran itself as evidence against itself. To me if I am looking at a red flag and someone who i don't trust says it is red, I will not say: no it could be blue because that person may be misleading me. "If It is red, the it is red, regardless of who says it". Afro 

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #871 - June 17, 2010, 09:34 AM

    When this book gets published in English....I'll buy it!  dance

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #872 - June 17, 2010, 11:18 AM

    When this book gets published in English....I'll buy it!  dance

    I'll pirate it. dance
    Oh, wait...

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #873 - June 17, 2010, 02:11 PM

    Cool. I thought so but I wasn't sure. So basically, Mohammed tried to use the method but wasn't nearly as good at it.


    I suppose that's one way of looking at it, ,but I doubt Muhammad would have used the Qasida style even if he could because I don't think the Qasida format would have been a good vehicle for what he wanted to convey - it was too closely associated with descriptions of poets sneaking into their beloved's tent and bonking - apart from the fact that it was a fairly fixed format/size/meters/style (i.e. bemoaning the loss of a loved one - descriptions of women/nature - praise or attack or words of wisdom.) Muhammad could hardly have come out with a stream of Qasidas legislating rules on inheritance, marriage, or punishments for thieves and adulterers or relate all the stories he took from Judaism etc... It wouldn't fit into the format - and the whole idea of the Qasida was that it was a fixed format.

    Muhammad's style was more of a fusion of the saj' (doggrel) style of the soothsayers and prose and poetry - making it a sort of unique type of speech that reflected the mood Muhammad wanted to project.

    I just think that many verses of the Qur'an are quite interchangeable - many are independent units that can be switch or repeated or slightly changed and used again and again - which was the method the pre-Islamic poets used - and this is my point. But as a result it interrupts continuity and leads to a disjointed feel.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #874 - June 19, 2010, 05:17 PM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 4 - Where is the Eloquence of the Qurʾān? (cont...)

    5. Continuity is almost never maintained except in the stories and some of the legislative verses. Beyond that you see the verses scattered to the four winds (Qur'an, Sura 18, verses 46-51):

    Wealth and sons are adornment of the life of this world,but the things that endure, good deeds, are best in the sight of your Lord, as reward, and  and better in respect of hope.

    On the Day We shall remove the mountains, and you will see the earth protruding and We shall gather them, all together, and We shall not leave out any one of them.

    And they shall be brought before your Lord, standing in ranks: Now certainly you have come to Us as We created you at first. Nay, you thought that We had not appointed to you a time of the fulfillment of the promise.

    And the Book shall be placed, then you will see the guilty fearing from what is in it, and they will say: Ah! woe to us! what a book is this! it does not omit a small one nor a great one, but numbers them (all); and what they had done they shall find present (there); and your Lord does not deal unjustly with anyone.

    And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.

    I did not make them witnesses of the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor of the creation of their own souls; nor could I take those who lead (others) astray for aiders.

    One Day He will say: Call on those whom you considered to be My associates. So they shall call on them, but they shall not answer them, and We will cause a separation between them.

    (18:46-51)

    6. Strangely this disjointedness is not confined to imbalance in the sequence of the verses on a single page making it into an amazing assemblage of disparate verses, but this imbalance intrudes upon a single verse separating it's two ends and resulting in the last part being at odds with the first part

    "To Him is referred the knowledge of the hour, and there come not forth any of the fruits from their sheaths, nor does a female bear, nor does she give birth, except with His knowledge. And on the day when He calls out to them: Where are My partners? They will say, we confess to you, not one of us is a witness (for them)." (41:47)

    What has the end of this verse got to do with the first part? Why is it that those who harp on about the eloquence and miraculous nature of the Qur'an ignore this verse and its like and limit themselves to the excellent verses which no-one - regardless of his position on the Qur'an - can avoid warming to willingly or not? As for the other verses - the shaky, unstable and disordered verses that don't withstand scrutiny, they pass over them, oblivious and feigning to be oblivious. While if they do deal with them, they repair them and weave threads like a spider's web to camouflage them and conceal their flaws. The masses fall for that and even the select do, but it's inconceivable that a rare, selective shortcoming could make the truly critical eye fall for it: Even though this shortcoming obscures the truth and makes one turn a blind eye, in order to play safe.

    For the believer - even if he is amongst the experts, or experts of experts - he will see things through his desire and not his senses, with his heart and not his mind. Only the unbiased inquiring eye - and few are they! - is able to penetrate deeply into matters and probe into the truth of things, until in a few blinks of an eye, the full radiance of the sun is revealed, or the true essence of things. A spider's web is indeed a spider's web. A building cannot stand upright with it, nor can it keep the suppressed in check. There is no substance to it, nor can it withstand scrutiny. However our silence dignifies it. So who is with me in removing the silence from it. Indeed the weakest of houses is the house of the spider! (Qur'anic ref)
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #875 - June 19, 2010, 06:04 PM

    PDF is updated...

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #876 - June 19, 2010, 09:53 PM

    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 4 - Where is the Eloquence of the Qurʾān? (cont...)

    7. Now I present to you these verses (4:2-3), please help me to understand them - May Allah help you:

    "And give to the orphans their property, and do not substitute something worthless for something good, and do not devour their property into your own property, that is indeed a great sin."

    "And if you fear you cannot deal fairly with the orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you two and three and four, but if you fear that you will not do justice, then only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course."

    (4:2-3)

    This last verse is amongst the strangest of things, for it combines within it two matters that it is not possible to combine unless it's possible to combine oil and water. Despite all that I have read in the books of Tafsir, and what they contain of reasonable and atrocious and empty waffle and forced meanings, until now, I am still unable to understand the connection between justice to orphans and marriage.

    It is most likely that between the opening clause "If you fear..." and the concluding clause "Then marry..." in the second verse, there is a missing third verse, or a deleted (verse), omitted either unintentionally or intentionally. As long as there isn't some 'profound wisdom' or 'eloquent significance' that the waffling exegetes have got us accustomed to expecting!!  If not then everything in their bag of tricks to rescue the verse is of no use.

    For the verse as it stands and the way it is, makes no sense! Indeed the rigidity (of the exegetes) was unable to shed light upon this verse and could only leaves it as it is - as it was revealed - fearing alteration or saying something about the word of God that it doesn't contain.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #877 - June 19, 2010, 10:31 PM


    "And if you fear you cannot deal fairly with the orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you two and three and four, but if you fear that you will not do justice, then only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course."



    I'd be very interested in what Debunker or any other Muslim (or anyone else ftm) think about this verse and why being fair to orphans is linked by a conditional sentence to marrying up to 4 wives.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #878 - June 19, 2010, 10:42 PM

    Lmao I remember laughing so hard I had tears in my eyes when I read this part in the original arabic. I said to my self, wow, I read the Quran many times before, why I did not think of it myself?

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #879 - June 19, 2010, 10:44 PM

    It is REALLY ambiguous! And indeed, it does seem as if something is missing... but the trick I use to let this slide is this: maybe the 7th century Arabs had no problem understanding this verse which seems too abstract to me as to think something is missing... after all, it is not unusual for the Arabic language to be too abstract...

    For example, I think those who aren't familiar with the Arabic language would find the following proverb meaningless:

    "The question is half the answer".

    Or maybe those who are familar with the saying: "Asking the right question is half the way to finding the answer" would *guess* that the two expressions are equivalent.

    But really, the expression: "the question is half the answer" is very ambiguous on its own without proper background.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #880 - June 19, 2010, 10:49 PM

    Lmao I remember laughing so hard I had tears in my eyes when I read this part in the original arabic. I said to my self, wow, I read the Quran many times before, why I did not think of it myself?


    I too am finding it very revealing how different the Qur'an looks pre and post Islam.

    When I was a Muslim I had such unshakable faith it was from God. I would read this and other verses, so many times, and never see a hint of a problem - or if I did I put it down to my inadequacy and shortcomings. (in fact I was quite good at being a 'waffling mufassir' myself lol  grin12)

    The power of faith is an amazing thing.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #881 - June 19, 2010, 10:49 PM

    Debunker ask the right question in order to get the comfortable answer and thus the "right" answer Wink

    Grin
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #882 - June 19, 2010, 10:51 PM

    It is REALLY ambiguous! And indeed, it does seem as if something is missing... but the trick I use to let this slide is this: maybe the 7th century Arabs had no problem understanding this verse which seems too abstract to me as to think something is missing... after all, it is not unusual for the Arabic language to be too abstract...

    For example, I think those who aren't familiar with the Arabic language would find the following proverb meaningless:

    "The question is half the answer".

    Or maybe those who are familar with the saying: "Asking the right question is half the way to finding the answer" would *guess* that the two expressions are equivalent.

    But really, the expression: "the question is half the answer" is very ambiguous on its own without proper background.


    I appreciate your honesty as always, Debunker. I'll leave you to decide for yourself how convincing that is.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #883 - June 19, 2010, 10:54 PM

    It is REALLY ambiguous! And indeed, it does seem as if something is missing...


    I only like this part of you post Debunker. Why would one try to find an excuse for a strangely put mumbo jumbo book that we were lead to believe it was holy and divine?

    If Almutanaby had written badley composed poems, would we tray to be apologistic towards him? I don't think so.

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #884 - June 19, 2010, 10:54 PM

    I too am finding it very revealing how different the Qur'an looks pre and post Islam.

    When I was a Muslim I had such unshakable faith it was from God. I would read this and other verses, so many times, and never see a hint of a problem - or if I did I put it down to my inadequacy and shortcomings.

    The power of faith is an amazing thing.


    true, but during my return to Islam from Deism, reading the Quran so many times, I noticed the difficulties in some verses.

    Anyway, what sealed Islam for me as the true religion is the Quranic definition of the word God... no other definition works for me after i understood it.

    like I said before, I'm sure 100% of the existence of the creator God, but it's the Quranic definition of the word God, that makes me believe the Quranic God is the Creator God.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #885 - June 19, 2010, 10:56 PM

    Debunker ask the right question in order to get the comfortable answer and thus the "right" answer Wink

    Grin


    what are you trying to say? Wink

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #886 - June 19, 2010, 10:57 PM

     dance
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #887 - June 19, 2010, 10:59 PM

    true, but during my return to Islam from Deism, reading the Quran so many times, I noticed the difficulties in some verses.

    Anyway, what sealed Islam for me as the true religion is the Quranic definition of the word God... no other definition works for me after i understood it.

    like I said before, I'm sure 100% of the existence of the creator God, but it's the Quranic definition of the word God, that makes me believe the Quranic God is the Creator God.


    You are sure no other religion glorified God and defined it as the Quran did? Most religions define God as the most powerful most omnipotent most blah blah blah.... Huh?

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #888 - June 19, 2010, 11:03 PM

    I only like this part of you post Debunker. Why would one try to find an excuse for a strangely put mumbo jumbo book that we were lead to believe it was holy and divine?

    If Almutanaby had written badley composed poems, would we tray to be apologistic towards him? I don't think so.


    I already said this before, I don't think Medinan Suras were meant to be as poetic (and how can they be when they contain many verses about instructions and regulations?)

    Like I said, I *personally* have found the proof in the Quran that the Creator God is the Quranic God... nothing else matters... sure there are questionable verses, problematic rulings, but all in all, they're very few compared to the entirety of the Quran.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #889 - June 19, 2010, 11:06 PM

    You are sure no other religion glorified God and defined it as the Quran did? Most religions define God as the most powerful most omnipotent most blah blah blah.... Huh?


    First off, I didn't read about all religions, but clearly only the monotheistic religions work. The Bible contains many blasphemies, thus it's only the Quran.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #890 - June 19, 2010, 11:50 PM

    I'd be very interested in what Debunker or any other Muslim (or anyone else ftm) think about this verse and why being fair to orphans is linked by a conditional sentence to marrying up to 4 wives.


    However someone might look at it, it's definitely weird to attach the two things together in the same verse, and thus it's evidence against the Clear Book.

    The only way I can make sense of it is if it's talking about how to make sure one has enough funds to raise orphans under one's care. If someone has wives that they need to support, then they also have to make sure they have enough money for the orphans. And so, they have to make sure that they don't marry too many wives so that they can still afford to maintain both their wives and the orphans in their care, and do so equitably.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #891 - June 20, 2010, 12:12 AM

    It is REALLY ambiguous! And indeed, it does seem as if something is missing... but the trick I use to let this slide is this: maybe the 7th century Arabs had no problem understanding this verse which seems too abstract to me as to think something is missing... after all, it is not unusual for the Arabic language to be too abstract...

    For example, I think those who aren't familiar with the Arabic language would find the following proverb meaningless:

    "The question is half the answer".

    Or maybe those who are familar with the saying: "Asking the right question is half the way to finding the answer" would *guess* that the two expressions are equivalent.

    But really, the expression: "the question is half the answer" is very ambiguous on its own without proper background.

    Umm, well, now that you mention it: I don't speak Arabic at all and I got the point of that first proverb immediately.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #892 - June 20, 2010, 12:16 AM

    Ambiguous proverb fail
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #893 - June 20, 2010, 12:43 AM

    if you never heard/read something similar in your life, you would have never understood what "the question is half the answer" meant.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #894 - June 20, 2010, 01:00 AM

    DB - go get some sleep, you're not doing very well today

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #895 - June 20, 2010, 01:14 AM

     Cheesy
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #896 - June 20, 2010, 01:18 AM

    lol - he's actually gone offline now  Cheesy

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #897 - June 20, 2010, 01:20 AM

    if you never heard/read something similar in your life, you would have never understood what "the question is half the answer" meant.

    Ok, this is a bit of a trivial side issue but just for the sake of friendly discussion...............

    .........................what I've found when hearing proverbs from other languages for the first time is that they often click immediately. They aren't necessarily something I would think of, since they aren't part of my own cultural background, but they make sense straight away. It's the same with metaphors too. This shouldn't be that surprising because we all have basically the same brains and live on the same planet (mostly, anyway).

    Now this doesn't apply in all cases, only in some. If the proverb or metaphor in question relies on a specific cultural reference that I'm not aware of then I wont get it. 

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #898 - June 20, 2010, 01:22 AM

    we should have a proverb thread - my dad always come out with some cool one liners (but they dont ever translate well into English)

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #899 - June 20, 2010, 01:34 AM

    While I'm reminded of it, the bit about the heavenly virgins having see through skin is something I'm sure was not originally meant to be taken literally.

    Having pale, translucent skin used to be highly valued for women in some cultures. For example, in Elizabethan England it was quite common for women to use makeup to paint fake veins on their skin. Obviously the idea was to make them fairly subtle rather than a full-on roadmap effect but still, this was considered quite the fashionable thing.

    I think the transparent virgins would have been an example for exaggeration for effect. Poetic license, if you will. If you read that section it's like a typical bunch of blokes down the pub carrying on about sheilas. So it would have gone sort of like:

    "And do they have clear skin, Mo?"

    "Fuck yeah. Their skin is so clear you can see their bones."

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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