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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 272775 times)
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  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1650 - December 12, 2014, 08:56 PM

    The above review seems very weird to me. I have a feeling the guy hasn't actually read the book himself! Because what he is saying doesn't quite reflect the book, plus he doesn't seem to be saying anything of value in response to the book.

    Not sure I can be bothered to finish translating it.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1651 - December 12, 2014, 08:59 PM

    Edit
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1652 - December 13, 2014, 08:02 PM

    When you get back Doubter_Seeker - just to let you know I checked over the intro of Iraqi Atheist and made a couple of changes and have posted it in the other thread. Please also not title change from "Introduction" to "Foreword".
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1653 - December 14, 2014, 06:39 PM

    Thanks tdr  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1654 - December 14, 2014, 07:04 PM

    So now we are just waiting for doubter to finish exams and then start putting the edited version together including the quranic verses correct ?

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1655 - December 14, 2014, 07:15 PM

    So now we are just waiting for doubter to finish exams and then start putting the edited version together including the quranic verses correct ?


    Yup and then a look through for the English grammar etc.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1656 - December 14, 2014, 07:24 PM

    So now we are just waiting for doubter to finish exams and then start putting the edited version together including the quranic verses correct ?


    Yep  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1657 - December 14, 2014, 07:25 PM

    Yup and then a look through for the English grammar etc.


    Yes, as soon as we have it all in one document we will give you and the other volunteers copies to go over for mistakes and just anything that doesn't seem clear.  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1658 - December 14, 2014, 07:26 PM

    I also need to write a brief translators note.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1659 - December 14, 2014, 07:27 PM

    plus acknowledgements to all those who have helped.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1660 - December 14, 2014, 08:31 PM

    The initial parts of chapter four were not included in this thread so I figured I'd dig it out from the other thread and post it here.


    Thanks, tdr - but I ought to mention that Aziz added all that to the pdf he compiled (link on very first post) and he changed my "see previous reference" to Ibid and corrected some spelling mistakes, so it would be better to use what Aziz has done first, and only refer to the thread for the remainder.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1661 - December 15, 2014, 01:40 AM

    I have just drafted a translators note - I think I got carried away a bit lol - It will probably change by the time the book is ready - but I post it here so people can comment or make suggestions on what I should add/remove.

    ___________________________________________

    <snip>

    See updated version below Smiley
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1662 - December 15, 2014, 01:47 AM

    No worries abu, that was really well written, not over the top.  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1663 - December 15, 2014, 08:27 AM

    Thanks laico. Hopefully the intent in it is clear.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1664 - December 15, 2014, 12:49 PM

    OK updated my intro - I'd be interested in any comments/suggestions:

    ______________________


    The Qur'an is not infallible. It is a great literary work that contains much wisdom and virtue. But it is not divine nor inerrant. It is a human work and subject to the all the limitations human works are subject to. In particular it is closely tied to it's context and environment. As the author of this book points out, the Qur'an was in its time revolutionary and dynamic. It changed its society for the better. But as with all revolutions they have their time and place. As time moves on, that which was innovative and revolutionary becomes static and inflexible and eventually reactionary and regressive. Looking back to the past instead of moving us forward.

    Muslims are suffering the most serious dilemma of their history. Plagued by oppressive, despotic regimes, stagnating and stifling social structures, ignorant, closed and inward looking mentalities. We have become anaesthetised and comatose, mechanically performing rituals & imitating our forefathers in the hope of happiness in another life with no interest nor positive effect on the world around us. Obsessed with protecting & preserving our holy relic, our version of "the absolute truth!" We have no argument except the argument of blood, fear and suppression. We slaughter each other on a daily basis and bequeath our children ruins & despair.

    The world has changed and moved on without us. It is time we woke up.

    I feel an extremely strong affinity to the author of this book. Like him I also have an Egyptian background. Like him I was a practicing Muslim for most of my life. Like him it was later in my life that I started having doubts and questions that led me to lose my faith entirely. My journey - like all our journeys - is ongoing, but I have regained my faith to a certain extent and feel comfortable identifying as a Muslim. But like the author I do not believe the Qur'an is the infallible literal speech of God, but rather the fallible speech of a human being. While I am happy to draw from its wisdom I believe very strongly that we Muslims must wake-up and realise that there are no divine A to Z's on how to run our lives and those of others. While truth may not be relative, nevertheless, our understanding, appreciation and perception of truth certainly is relative. It is based upon our knowledge, context, environment, experience, intelligence and innumerable variables relating to individuals and the society we live in.

    If we appreciate that our understanding of truth is flawed and relative, then it should lead us to realise that we can never be dogmatic when it comes to mysteries of God and al-Ghayb. We cannot insist our belief is right and must be imposed on others. The existence God is a question that can be neither proven nor disproven. It is a matter of faith and not a matter of certainty.

    I have no doubt Muhammad was inspired when he uttered the words of the Qur'an, but inspired in a very human sense of the word. In the way that orators, poets, writers, artists, and musicians have been inspired down the ages. This inspiration comes from the world around us, nature, social conditions, the urge to better the lot of our fellow man - and yes, maybe by God himself, but not in a literal and infallible sense. While Muslims can be justly proud of the Qur'an and it's achievements, we must now bring it back into the realm of human achievement where it belongs. Faith must be removed from the sphere of certainty and returned to the sphere of the uncertain mysteries of life. It is a personal matter and not a matter to be imposed, controlled or punished by governments or religious authorities.

    We must realise that revelation came from the mind of man and not the mind of God and as a consequence revelation must be subject to human reason and not the other way around.

    Achieving such a transformation in the way we Muslims perceive the Qur'an will be enormously difficult. But every journey begins with one step and the benefits are enormous. We will at last be able to reconcile the schisms that have torn us apart, we will reconcile the differences between us and our fellow man regardless of faith or the lack of it.  We will be able to start building a new and better identity and society in our countries. One that will allow us to once again contribute positively to the course of human history.

    I believe this book is an important contribution to this debate. There are very few books by Muslims that analyse the Qur'an in a truly critical way - and even fewer in Arabic by Arabs. This book is important because it breaks that ground and removes the barrier. I hope it will encourage others to embark on a new field of real textual criticism of the Qur'an by Muslims and Arabs themselves rather than by non-Muslim Orientalists.

    In the West, philosophers and thinkers such as Spinoza, Descartes and those that followed them have been able to place the Bible firmly within the realm of human achievement and so the Christian and Jewish worlds now have a strong history of textual criticism, freeing them from the chains of dogma. I hope this book will contribute to starting such a movement amongst Muslims.

  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1665 - December 15, 2014, 12:56 PM

    It is incredibly powerful

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1666 - December 15, 2014, 01:02 PM

    So many gems of insight in it, like this:

    "We must realise that revelation came from the mind of man and not the mind of God and as a consequence revelation must be subject to human reason and not the other way around. "

    It would be great to read a book or a series of essays developing these ideas one day, after this translation is complete.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1667 - December 15, 2014, 01:08 PM

    Thanks, Billy  Afro - and yes that would be a good idea - but one project at a time lol  grin12
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1668 - December 15, 2014, 01:26 PM

    ...
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1669 - December 15, 2014, 01:57 PM

    Fantastic intro Abu Ali. The intro feels very inclusive and inviting for Muslims to read the book with an open mind. Good job to you and the rest of the translators  thnkyu
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1670 - December 15, 2014, 02:36 PM

    Quote
    the Qur'an was in its time revolutionary and dynamic. It changed its society for the better

     

    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it changed society for the better in some aspects and made it worse in others ?

    You could put in things like banning female infanticide as one improvement in changing society for the better but you could also argue the other way.

     I recall reading somewhere that the pre islamic arabs were more sexually liberal and islam made them more sexually repressive.

    One example I remember is that pre islamic couples would find a man that was handsome or had some trait they liked and then would allow that man to impregnate the wife in the hopes that the child would have those preferable traits.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1671 - December 15, 2014, 06:07 PM

    The intro feels very inclusive and inviting for Muslims to read the book with an open mind.


    Thanks, questioner  - that's what I was aiming for Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1672 - December 15, 2014, 06:10 PM



    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it changed society for the better in some aspects and made it worse in others ?

    You could put in things like banning female infanticide as one improvement as changing society for the better but you could also argue the other way.

     I recall reading somewhere that the pre islamic arabs were more sexually liberal and islam was sexually repressive.

    One example I remember is that pre islamic couples would find a man that was handsome or had some trait he liked and then he would allow that man to impregnate the wife in the hopes that the child would have those preferable traits.




    The intro note is really just to encourage Muslims to read it with an open mind as questioner above rightly said.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1673 - December 16, 2014, 12:36 AM

    Quote
    The intro note is really just to encourage Muslims to read it with an open mind as questioner above rightly said.


     

    aah using the intro to seduce muslims into reading it.

    Smart.  Afro 

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1674 - December 16, 2014, 12:46 AM

    Well I wouldn't use the word 'seduce' - more like letting them know this book isn't coming from an angle of hate or bigotry, but from one of their own, so they don't just put their defences up, but rather listen to what's being said.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1675 - December 16, 2014, 09:06 PM

     OK this is the review/response I started earlier - finished now. I still think the guy either hasn't read the book or skimmed it as his responses are off the mark somewhat. He also ends with 3 or 4 paragraphs of anti-Jewish rhetoric.

    ______________________________________________________

    Website forum: Kalemasawaa. An Islamic website & forum aimed at giving Da'wah to non-Muslims.

    http://www.kalemasawaa.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6644

    "A response to the book 'My Ordeal with the Qur'an and with God in the Qur'an."

    "A reply to the questions and doubts raised about the Noble Qur'an."

    By a member of the forum going by the name: MALCOMX (sic)
    ______________________________________________

    Response to the book:

    "My Ordeal with the Qur'an and with God in the Qur'an."

    By Abbas Abdul Nour - Damanhour, Egypt, 2004.

    The book is not a book of theology, according to the introduction.

    Page 7 he doesn't encourage the reader to agree with him.

    Page 19 the author says he's a Sufi.

    Pages 20-21 he attacks the Christian faith and it's tenets.

    Hadith from the prophet:

    "I saw my Lord in the most beautiful form and he put his hand on my shoulders until I felt the coldness of fingers between my chest, beside the throne on the shoulder of Israfil, and indeed it (the throne) made a sound like the sound of a new saddle."

    There is no authenticity to the previous hadith.

    Slander/Doubt:

    1) The period the people of the cave is contradictory in the Qur'an.

    Response:

    "They will say there were three, the fourth of them being their dog; and they will say there were five, the sixth of them being their dog - guessing at the unseen; and they will say there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog. Say, [O Muhammad], "My Lord is most knowing of their number. None knows them except a few. So do not argue about them except with an obvious argument and do not inquire about them among [the speculators] from anyone."

    Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

    "God Most High says regarding people's differing about the number of the people of the cave and relates 3 views, indicating that there is no fourth view. He then undermines the first two views by saying: "guessing at the unseen" meaning saying something without knowledge like one who throws towards something he can't see and so is not able to hit the mark and even if he does it is unintentional. They he relates the third view and kept quiet about it or confirmed it by his saying: "and the eighth of them was their dog" and so indicated it's correctness."

    And Ibn Jarir said: Ibn Bashar related from Abdu al-Rahman, from Isra'il, from Samak, from 'Ikrama, from Ibn 'Abbas: "No one knows them except a few." He said: "I am one of those few and they were seven."

    It is also related from Ibn Abbas that he said: "They are Maxlima, Yamlikha, Mirtouns, Binouns, Sarenouns, Thu Nuwas and Kashfitatnous and he was the shepherd while the dog was called Qitmir."

    2) We were made to carry the burdens of the people so we threw them - where did they throw them??

    "We were made to carry burdens from the ornaments of the people, so we threw them, and thus did the Samiri throw." (20:87)

    It is said: When God Most High drowned Pharaoh the sea threw their ornaments/jewellery out so they (Bani Isra'il) took them. It was booty. But booty wasn't halal in those days. So he (God) called it "burdens" for that reason.

    "burdens from the ornaments of the people" the ornaments/jewels of the people of Pharaoh. He called them "burdens" because they took them without permission and didn't return them."

    "So we threw them" It is said: Samiri said to them; 'dig a hole and throw it in it until Moses returns.'

    "and thus did the Samiri throw" what he had of ornaments/jewellery, into it (the hole). Sa'id ibn Jubayr said from Ibn 'Abbas, may God be pleased with him, that Haroun lit a fire and said throw what you have into it. So they threw it into it. Then Samiri threw what he had of the dust from the hoof of Gabriel's horse."

    3) Why was Lot's wife made to be destined for Hell??

    Abu Ja'far said: God says, may his mention be raised aloft: When the people of Lot rejected Lot's reprimand of them for committing lewdness, and rejected the message of his Lord making these acts forbidden, and when they just went further towards sin and misguidance, we saved Lot and his believing family - apart from his his wife, because she was a traitor to Lot and disbelieved in God.

    4.) The doubt/slander of the existence of Qur'anic contradiction in the story of Yunus - upon him be peace.

    God Most High says in Sura Al-Saffat "But We cast him onto the open shore while he was sick" (37:145)

    And he says in Sura al-Qalam "Had it not been that favour from his Lord had reached him, he surely would have been cast onto the open shore while he was blameworthy." (68:49)

    Regarding this, those who have no knowledge of the language, ask: Was he thrown on the open shore or not?

    This question has been answered by the tafseer of al-Baghawi, he said:

    "The words 'had it not been for' refer to blame and it means, 'had it not been for the favour from his Lord he would have been cast onto the open shore while he was blameworthy, but the favour from his Lord reached him and so he was cast onto the open shore while he was not blameworthy."

    In other words if it had not been for the mercy of of God and his forgiveness to him, he would have been cast onto the open shore while blameworthy, carrying the sins without the forgiveness of God, but because of the favour of God he was forgiven and cast onto the shore sick but having gained God's forgiveness and his good pleasure, because the intention is not to negate casting him itself, but only while blameworthy.

    This is also indicated by the books of tafseer which the questioner himself used as evidence:

    Al-Jalalayn: "Had it not been that favour from his Lord had reached him" means if the favour and mercy of his Lord had not reached him he would have been cast out of the fish's stomach onto the open shore - the open land - while being blameworthy, but he was shown mercy and so was cart out without being blameworthy."

    Al-Qurtubi: "It means; cast out while blameworthy but he was cast out while sick and not blameworthy. The meaning of blameworthy (&#1605;&#1584;&#1605;&#1608;&#1605;) according to what Ibn Abbas said is 'at fault' while Bakr ibn abdullah said: 'sinful' and it is said that "blameworthy" (&#1605;&#1584;&#1605;&#1608;&#1605;) means 'distanced from every good.' While 'open shore' (&#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1575;&#1569;) means an 'extensive area of open land on which there are no mountains, trees shelter under.' It is said; if it had not been for the favour of God upon him he would have remained in the fishs stomach until the day of Judgment. Then he would have been cast out into the open space of the day of judgment while blameworthy. His words, Most High, indicate this: "But had it not been that he was of those who glorify (God), He would certainly have remained inside the Fish until the Day of Resurrection." (37:143-144)

    In Fath al-Qadir it says: "Some of the mufassirun have found it difficult to reconcile between his saying here; 'But We cast him onto the open shore" and his saying in another place: "Had it not been that favour from his Lord had reached him, he surely would have been cast onto the open shore while he was blameworthy." which shows that he wasn't cast out onto the open shore. However Al-Nahas and others have responded by saying that God, Glory to him, relates that he cast him out onto the open shore while he is not blameworthy and if it were not for his Mercy, Mighty & Glorious, he would have cast him onto the open shore while blameworthy."

    (He quotes more tafseers that say the same thing, then says:)

    So the essence of all the previous statements is that he was cast out while sick but not blameworthy because God's mercy had reached him.

    5. (Moses speaking to Pharaoh) "And is it a favour of which you remind me, that you have enslaved the children of Israel?" (26:22)

    His saying: "And is it a favour of which you remind me, that you have enslaved the children of Israel?" Meaning your making the children of Israel into slaves and killing their children, which caused me to be sent off to you so that you brought me up and looked after me, but if you had not enslaved them (the children of Israel) and killed them then someone from my family would have been able to bring me up and they wouldn't have had to throw me into the river, so what sort of favour did you do me? And his saying: you took them as slaves, you can say  &#1593;&#1576;&#1583;&#1578; &#1548; &#1601;&#1604;&#1575;&#1606;&#1575; &#1548; &#1608;&#1571;&#1593;&#1576;&#1583;&#1607; &#1548; &#1608;&#1578;&#1593;&#1576;&#1583;&#1578;&#1607; &#1548; &#1608;&#1575;&#1587;&#1578;&#1593;&#1576;&#1583;&#1578;&#1607; meaning taking them as slaves.

    "And is it a favour of which you remind me, that you have enslaved the children of Israel?" It means: 'What is your being good to me and bringing me up in comparison to how badly you have treated the children of Israel. You made them slaves and servants and sending them to do your work and hard labour. Does your goodness to one single person, make up for how badly you have treated all of them? i.e. what you have mentioned is nothing in comparison to what you have done to them.

    6. The contradiction in the number of days that the earth was created - 8 or 6?

    I read the words of God Most High;

    "Indeed, your Lord is Allah , who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He covers the night with the day, chasing it rapidly; and the sun, the moon, and the stars, subjected by His command. Unquestionably, His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah , Lord of the worlds." (7:54)

    I understood that God created the heavens and earth in 6 days. This is clear.  But in verses from Sura Fussilat, God mentions the creation of the heavens & earth, and said:

    "Say; do you disbelieve in he who created the earth in two days, and you ascribe rivals to him? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four days, alike for those who ask. Then he turned to the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: Come both of you, willingly or unwillingly. They said: We come, obedient. Then He ordained them seven heavens in two days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower." (41:9-12)

    Here God mentions creating the earth in two days, then placed in it mountains&#8230; and measured its sustenance in four days and so the total becomes six. Then he created the heavens in two days and so the total is now eight days.

    So how do we reconcile the different verses??

    Praise be to God.

    This is one of the things that some people find difficult to understand. So some think that God created the heavens and earth in eight days as it says in Sura Fussilat and it contradicts other verses that mentions they were created in six days.

    This is a mistaken view and and the reply to it is what is said:

    There is no contradiction nor discrepancy between the period of time that is mentioned in these verses and between the other verses which define the period of time as six days.

    For in these verses from Sura Fussilat we find that God, Glory to him and Most High, informs us that he "created the earth in two days." Then; " He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance," which made the running total 4 days. In other words he placed hills and sustenance in two other days in addition to the two days in which he created the earth and so the total of that is four days. It doesn't mean that the mountains and sustenance took four days to create.

    The slander/doubt comes from the delusion that the earth took 2 days, the mountains and sustenance took 4 days and the heavens took 2 days which makes eight in total. But this delusion can be removed because the earth was created in two days, while the creation of the mountains and sustenance in 2 days that completed the 4 days in total. Then the creation of the 7 heavens took 2 days and so the total is 6 days - of the days of God - Glory to him Most High.

    (Quotes from the Al-Qurtubi, al-Baghawi, Al-Zujaj and al-Zamakhshari, supporting the above explanation.)

    So these verses from Sura Fussilat confirm the others, that the heavens and earth were created only created in six days, and thus there is no contradiction between the verses of the Qur'an nor any discrepancy about the period of time taken for the divine creation of the heavens and earth. God forbid there should be such a thing in the "Wise Speech" (Qur'an.)

    7. The Jews are the chosen nation of God according to the Qur'an.

    The response: Imam al-Qurtubi says in his tafseer of the following words God Most High: "Oh Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all others in the world." (2:47) "He means they were preferred over all others in the world, at that time, and over all others at that time. It is said they were preferred over all others in the world because they were sent prophets and that was a special favour just for them and not for others. Yet there is no doubt that they repaid this enormous favour with disbelief and their behaviour towards their prophets was as the God Most High said: "Certainly We made a covenant with the children of Israel and We sent to them messengers; whenever there came to them an messenger with what that their souls did not desire, some they called liars and some they slew." (5:70) So when they did that they became cursed and deserving of anger and He Most High said: "Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit. They used not to forbid each other the hateful things (which) they did; certainly evil was that which they did." (5:78-79)

    And He Most High said: "Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, as retribution from Allah? Those who God cursed and was angry with and made them into monkeys and pigs, those who worshipped evil, these are worse in rank, and far more astray from the right path!" (5:60)

    The Children of Israel have a long history in breaking covenants and promises and in disobeying the commandments of God and transgressing his limits and in killing the prophets and messengers and those who call for justice from people. The Noble Qur'an has examined much of their ugly behaviour and their committing sins against their prophets and messengers and shed light upon their deviant positions towards the favours of God Most High, upon them and that which cannot be counted, amongst them his choosing them over all other people in their time and favouring them over everyone by sending them prophets and making them kings, just as God Most High has related from Moses, upon him be peace reminding them of these blessings and favours: "And when Moses said to his people: O my people! remember the favour of God upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations." (5:20) The Qur'an does not cease reminding them of these favours and demand they fulfil their pact with God and their promise to believe in the seal of prophets, peace and blessings be upon him, who they recognised just as they recognise their sons, but they stubbornly refused to change their ways. It's the nature of Jews to be untrustworthy, treacherous, devious and warped.

    It is noticeable that the Noble Qur'an addresses the Jews at the time of the prophet about what their ancestors did as though they themselves had committed what they committed which shows us that the Jews have one nature that doesn't change nor vary. They are the same in every time and place. Instead of fulfilling their oaths and responding to their Lord and following the messenger, the illiterate prophet who they find decreed with them in the Torah, they disbelieve, turn away and plotted against him the most evil, dirty plots and bike their treaties with him. The Nobel Qur'an has documented how they make a mockery of their religion including changing the book of their Lord and distorting it seeking worldly benefits and trivial profits, for God says about them:

    "Woe to those who write the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." (2:79)

    Just as the Qur'an has also documented their foolishness and insolence that no-one else has surpassed, to the extent that they described their Lord who created them, as miserly - may God destroy them - as God Most High related about them: "And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is chained up." (5:64) And they described him as poor  - most high is he far above what they say. As he said: "God has certainly heard the statement of those (Jews) who said, "Indeed, Allah is poor, while we are rich." (3:181) The Noble Qur'an takes great care to expose the nature and disposition of the Jews. It goes to lengths to cast light on their morals and actions. By doing this the Qur'an is directing Muslims to be aware of it and to warn them not to be deceived by the sweet-talk of the Jews nor be misled by them and by their promises or alliances, for all their treaties will be dishonoured and their promises broken eventually, just as God said about them: "Is it not that every time they took a covenant a party of them threw it away? But, most of them do not believe." (2:100)

    And God is the one sought for help.

    8. As for the question of God not answering Du'a:

    God does not wish to guide the unbelievers.

    http://www.ansarsunna.com/vb/showpos...39&postcount=6

    And

    http://www.ansaaar.net/vb/showthread.php?t=77116

    And this is the response of some brothers:

    http://www.burhanukum.com/article1076.html
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1676 - December 17, 2014, 03:23 AM

    Blatant anti-Semitism in that review. A really pathetic response that just makes Islam look worse

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1677 - December 17, 2014, 09:50 AM

    Whenever I point out that the Quran lends itself easily to antisemitism, the muslims I know get so indignant.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1678 - December 17, 2014, 03:26 PM

    edit... see my revised script further on.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1679 - December 17, 2014, 03:38 PM

    I think the script maybe too long. I think the vid should be short and snappy.

    Any ideas what bits to cut out or how to cut it down - gratefully received. Smiley

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