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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1290 - August 05, 2014, 07:05 PM
    Yes as I remember Cohen means some kind of priest and those with the name Cohen are believed to be decendents of Aron.

    Quote
    Kohen or cohen (or kohain; Hebrew: כֹּהֵן, "priest", pl. כֹּהֲנִים kohanim) is the Hebrew word for priest. Jewish kohanim are traditionally believed and halakhically required to be of direct patrilineal descent from the biblical Aaron.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen

    However, if there is a claim in islamic tradition saying that the ancient arabs thought Quran was similar to the work of soothsayers, then that refutes to a degree that the ancient arabs were impressed.

    Im getting sleepy...almost drunklike...maybe I should've avoided commenting this time of the hour...and making fool of my self..I'll go to a less serious thread : s
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1291 - August 05, 2014, 07:10 PM
    interestingly the order of the surahs in the Qur'an, from longest to shortest, is the same as that of some books of the rigveda. Don't know how prevalent said ordering was, and can't think of any obvious reasons why both would use that.

    Anyone got any more info about this?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1292 - August 05, 2014, 07:18 PM
    Quote from: Skywalker on August 05, 2014, 07:05 PM
    However, if there is a claim in islamic tradition saying that the ancient arabs thought Quran was similar to the work of soothsayers, then that refutes to a degree that the ancient arabs were impressed.



    Yep, the Qur'an says Muhammad was accused of poetry and soothsaying

    (69:41) It is not the speech of a poet, little do you believe, nor the speech of a soothsayer, little do you remember.

    You will often hear Street-Dawah preachers saying things like "All the Arabs recognised the Qur'an was a miracle" - Or: "Some Arabs refused to accept Islam due to their arrogance, but none could deny the Qur'an was miraculous speech."

    But that's just a myth. Like a great deal of what these Da'wah merchants spew out.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1293 - August 06, 2014, 06:15 PM
    I had a hard time translating the first few verses of al-Nazi'aat without referring to tafseer meanings which are stuck in my head. Hopefully this is as close as one can get to the literal meanings befor the mufassirun got their hands on them lol

    Qur'an; 79:1-7

    1. By those who tear out, drowningly

    2. By those who activate, actively

    3. And by those who swim along, swimmingly

    4. Then those who race ahead, racingly,

    5. Then those who regulate the affair,

    6. The day when the quaking will quake,

    7. Following it another,
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1294 - August 06, 2014, 06:28 PM
    Does that make more sense in arabic than in english? Or as bad?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1295 - August 06, 2014, 06:32 PM
    It's just as bad.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1296 - August 06, 2014, 06:35 PM
    The only redeeming factor is that they rhyme in Arabic.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1297 - August 07, 2014, 04:00 PM
    That last section made me chuckle - actually they all do lol

    As I am reading the Arabic as well as translating it's difficult for me to judge, so I'd be interested if anyone could comment on the style and how it reads.

    Also, at this rate, I should finish translating sometime next month. (If I'm not sidetracked - inshallah  grin12)
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1298 - August 07, 2014, 04:07 PM
    Well done abu ali! Looking forward to testing/reading it on my Kindle!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1299 - August 07, 2014, 04:10 PM
    cheers  Smiley
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1300 - August 10, 2014, 07:44 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on July 26, 2014, 11:01 AM
    Thanks Lily, it is actually already in PDF form.

    When we started this project I was doing the translation and posting it on the "Actual Translation" thread and then Aziz was taking it and adding it to the PDF version he created.

    But now he's gone I don't know how to do that?

    The links to the PDF versions and what I assume are editors are on the very first post of the "Actual Translation" thread.

    I've copied that post below for convenience. If anyone can help me put this into the PDF version, I'd be very grateful.

    Everything I've translated is already on there - APART from the last chapter that I'm just finishing now (4.10 The Qur’ān and Science)

    Abu Ali,
    Aziz was maintaining a tex file and generating a PDF from that. I have managed to install the necessary LaTex software on my PC to edit and convert tex files.  As billy said, you just concentrate on the translations and I'll add the text to the tex file and generate the PDF and then upload it onto the server.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1301 - August 10, 2014, 07:54 PM
    That would be brilliant - thanks  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1302 - August 10, 2014, 08:29 PM
    Quote
    Look again at the very parochial, sealed, and limited character of these verses. "The ten nights" - the cosmic wedding nights! For the 10th of Thil-Hijja is a global nay, celestial occasion and not a local matter and likewise the "break of dawn" is the break of dawn all across the universe and not just confined to different areas of the earth at different times as the earth rotates and orbits the sun. Eid ul-Adha is a cosmic celebration. The angels celebrate it in the presence of the prophets spread throughout the heavens. In the same way odd and even appears to limit numbers to integers. This small domed universe of the Qur'an where it is all shrouded by the dark of the night with nothing but the moon & stars until they set on one side and the dawn sun slowly rises on the other side, lighting up the whole universe, is simply the image presented by the geocentric ancient cosmology current in that area of the world.

    There is no daybreak but the daybreak that takes place at the centre of the universe, and Hajj to Allah's holy house and the universal Eid that is celebrated, not just down here, but up there in the highest assembly and not to forget about what we said previously in Sura Al-Tur, that the holy Ka'bah enjoys an important strategic position in the scheme of the universe since it falls directly below the Bayt alMa'mur (The Oft-Frequented House) which the scholars differ slightly about where it is, some say in the third heaven, some say in the sixth, while others say; nay! It is in the seventh heaven. Although the Mufassirun -God's pleasure be upon them - differ about which heaven it is in, they don't differ about it being precisely above the Ka'bah. Thank God this is not a matter of dispute and this is His blessing to us, Most High is He.


    Spot on!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1303 - August 10, 2014, 08:48 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on August 07, 2014, 04:00 PM
    Also, at this rate, I should finish translating sometime next month. (If I'm not sidetracked - inshallah  grin12)

     

    When you finish translating it we will be forever in your debt.

    This is probably one of the best skeptical critique of the quran in existence.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1304 - August 11, 2014, 04:58 AM
    6. Qur'an; 38:1-2

    1. Saad: By the Qur'an, possessing honour/remembrance.
    2. Nay but the unbelievers are in pride and schism.

    Since Islam has already divide in often hostile schools of thought and sects could this verse not be used against a minority or even the majority view? Each group claims they are true Muslims and often take a stance that is pride to a fault. The only source which dictates that various schools/sect are true Islam are the authority figures with vested interest in maintaining this view. Otherwise these figures lose their power if they admit their own views are wrong. External authorities, non-Muslim, certainly do not reinforce any sect/school is the real Islam. Most seem just as divided over it as Muslim themselves but seem honest enough to admit the there is a conflict.

    Also consider Judaism has had no major schism or sectarian divide. Could this suggest that in fact the Hebrews are believers rather than Muslims themselves?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1305 - August 11, 2014, 08:34 AM
    Quote from: bogart on August 11, 2014, 04:58 AM
    Also consider Judaism has had no major schism or sectarian divide. Could this suggest that in fact the Hebrews are believers rather than Muslims themselves?


    May Allah guide you Bogart.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1306 - August 11, 2014, 08:38 AM
    the Orthodox - Hassidic versus Reform  - Liberal Judaism divide is profound though

    does that qualify as a schism?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on April 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1307 - August 11, 2014, 10:12 AM
    Also rabbinical Judaism vs. Karaites.
    Which side are you on?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1308 - August 11, 2014, 09:41 PM
    For Qur'an 100:1-6, I have run across an article by somebody (Luxenberg?  Can't remember) that reinterprets these verses in a radically different manner.  Basically the scholar argues that these verses originally related Syriac Christian material, and that Muslims botched the reading by misinterpreting the rasm as referring to charging horses and what not, when in fact it refers to Christians doing good works.

    He makes a pretty good argument about how the traditional Muslim reading of Surah 100 is incoherent gibberish that was imposed on the rasm.

    I'm not sure that this alternative reading, based on essentially the same rasm with I think just one alteration, is totally compelling, but it's interesting that "My Ordeal" has a similar opinion about the incoherence of the traditional Arabic reading of this Surah.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1309 - August 12, 2014, 01:52 AM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on July 24, 2014, 04:45 PM
    11. Furthermore, what reason lies behind specifying seven heavens, other than because it was regarded as a sacred number in ancient mythology? Wherever you look in this universe, you will not find evidence of this number except in the minds of fortunetellers, sorcerers, mystics, oracles, gnostics and such-like who claim to have secret knowledge. How can this number be reconciled with the colossal numbers of planets, stars, star systems, galaxies, nebulae and cosmic dust?

    Where is this number 7 in this avalanche? Where are the seven heavens and seven earths? And what is the meaning of the lowest heaven and the lamps that dangle from it? Are they the relatively modest number of stars that are observable with the naked eye? No, before all of that, can the lowest heaven – as the Qur’an calls it – even be regarded as a single, unified homogenous entity? Is it merely our galaxy - the Milky Way - which is made up of millions of stars sprinkled in the night sky? Or are there other galaxies beyond this galaxy, and galaxies beyond them counted in millions, each one containing millions of stars?

    It is naïve to label this explosive and clashing mixture, these worlds which words cannot describe, nor eloquence define, nor numbers compute, it is naïve to label all this “The Lowest Sky” and limit it in the way these verses do:

    “Blessed is he who made constellations in the skies/heavens, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light” (25:61)

    And embroidered the sky with some stars which we can travel by:

    “And He it is who made the stars for you, that you may be guided by them in the darkness of the land and the sea. We have detailed our revelations for a people who have knowledge.” (6:97)



    Well according to the believers of seven heavens this universe is the lowest level of heaven. After the highest one comes the realm of God.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1310 - August 12, 2014, 04:44 AM
    Zaotar, Rubaya, I have removed your posts from the translation thread and put them here, in the appropriate one Smiley

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1311 - August 12, 2014, 09:59 AM
    Quote from: Zaotar on August 11, 2014, 09:41 PM
    For Qur'an 100:1-6, I have run across an article by somebody (Luxenberg?  Can't remember) that reinterprets these verses in a radically different manner.  Basically the scholar argues that these verses originally related Syriac Christian material, and that Muslims botched the reading by misinterpreting the rasm as referring to charging horses and what not, when in fact it refers to Christians doing good works.

    He makes a pretty good argument about how the traditional Muslim reading of Surah 100 is incoherent gibberish that was imposed on the rasm.

    I'm not sure that this alternative reading, based on essentially the same rasm with I think just one alteration, is totally compelling, but it's interesting that "My Ordeal" has a similar opinion about the incoherence of the traditional Arabic reading of this Surah.


    Yes, someone posted that explanation here:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=26840.0

    I think it's quite convincing. I have little doubt that the Qur'an that Muhammad first uttered would have many differences to the one we have today.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1312 - August 12, 2014, 10:19 AM
    Quote from: Rubaya on August 12, 2014, 01:52 AM
    Well according to the believers of seven heavens this universe is the lowest level of heaven. After the highest one comes the realm of God.


    Muslims can claim what they like, but it seems strange to say that the lowest heaven is the whole of this universe, since the Qur'an talks about placing the moon in it's midst.

    The Qur'an's perception of the "Universe" is suspiciously similar to that of ancient man standing on the surface of earth looking up at the night sky and mistakenly thinking that the moon and stars are similar distances from earth.

    The fact the Qur'an uses the number 7 only confirms the view that it is using the ancient cosmology since this number was used all the time in ancient mythology, by many religions and cultures.

    btw The Quran also says there are 7 earths! Some Muslims explain that as 7 layers of the earth, but again sounds suspiciously like ancient mythological underworlds.

    also some Muslims claim the 7 heavens are 7 layers of the atmosphere. Though this one is so silly it seems to be fading away.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1313 - August 12, 2014, 10:30 AM
    No it is the claim of the and pagan religions and occult practitioners Smiley.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1314 - August 12, 2014, 05:55 PM
    The different divisions of Judaism are collectively living in harmony in Israeli. So my question would be is schism related to religious or political divides? If the former, any group can make the claim which they can not prove. If it is a later, the schism comes and goes. The same could be applied to any faith. There are some profound consequences for either view applied to any religion. 
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1315 - August 13, 2014, 06:45 PM
    Quote
    This is why the polytheists accused Muhammad - amongst many other things - of being a "Soothsayer," because what he was reciting - particularly in these earlier verses - were in the Saj' style, such as Sura Al-Qamar and Al-Rahman and Al-Insan which are amongst the best examples of Quranic Saj'.

    I've long thought that Surah Ar-Rahman was a fairly weak surah. I think I've said it here before, but the dual form used so heavily in the surah (that gives the verses their famous "aan" rhyming scheme) seem to have very clearly only been used to maintain the rhyme. The meanings are not improved at all by having those words in the dual form. No where else in the Qur'an are things like "two gardens" referenced. Nor is it necessary to address "mankind and jinn" in the dual form, because they would both be covered in the general plural form. I see this only as an attempt to find words that rhymed with the unfamiliar name for God, Ar-Rahman, that Muhammad was trying to promote. Several other verses point to the fact that the Quraish had no idea why they were being asked to worship Ar-Rahman and Allah.

    "And when they are told to prostrate themselves to Ar-Rahman, they say, and what is "Ar-Rahman?" Should we prostrate ourselves to whatever you command us?"

    "Say, call upon Allah or call upon Ar-Rahman, whichever you call upon, then he has the most sublime names."
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1316 - August 13, 2014, 06:56 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on August 13, 2014, 06:45 PM
    I see this only as an attempt to find words that rhymed with the unfamiliar name for God, Ar-Rahman, that Muhammad was trying to promote.


    Yes indeed.

    I am finding that this book is making me very confident in critiquing the Qur'an by echoing many of my own thoughts - and so confirming them - and pinpointing things that I either was unsure of or unaware of (and that make me go, Yesssss!).

    The Qur'an is long overdue a truly critical analysis - I hope this book is read widely.

    It really brings it home how "human" the Qur'an is and destroys the illusion of infallibility utterly.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1317 - August 13, 2014, 07:03 PM


    I never paid attention to this before, but in this verse, the dual form is dropped when addressing "mankind and Jinn" because it doesn't affect the rhyme. The verse ends in "Sultaan," which matches the rhyming pattern, so the usual plural form is used within the verse.

    Then, just in the next verse after the refrain, when the dual form is needed to preserve the rhyme, it switches back.


  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1318 - August 13, 2014, 07:12 PM
    So this suggests rythm is more important than grammer?
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1319 - August 13, 2014, 07:14 PM
    Haha! Excellent spot!

    That is exactly what the guy is talking about. The rhyme takes precedence over meaning. Form over content. Fireworks over deep and meaningful wisdom.
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