A mission statement

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #90 - April 30, 2010, 12:10 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on April 30, 2010, 11:30 AM
here we go with the brainwashing/indoctrination nonsense again. i don't know about you guys but when people generally reach the age of 18ish they start thinking for themselves - people have a wonderful tendency to do this (in fact i became an atheist for a couple of years when I was 18). it would also be practically quite conveniant for me to become an atheist/agnostic or whatever and renounce islam again. the reason i beleive is because i have faith - not because i feel a duty to community, race or religion or whatever.

it is true that children are taught about religion from an early age - but it's quite silly to think they become brainwashed by it to the extent they can not question whether it is right or not. The vast majority of Muslims do question islam, the reason they remain Muslims is becaue they have faith. Muslims are normal people - they question, they criticize, they change, they grow - we are not robots who have been programmed to follow islam. in addition many people convert to islam and they haven't been 'brainwashed/indoctrinated' with anything.

if an apostate feels he has been brave by renouncing islam, good on him/her. but please don't make the mistake in thinking that a person is only still a muslim because he/she lacks the courage to renounce islam - this is very narrow minded. i have also come across comments such as all muslims or people who convert to islam must have low self-esteem (yes you billy), again very silly and narrow minded.

Silly and narrow minded is refusing the confrontion with the nature of 'Allah' because you ascribe atrocities commited under his watch as being unworthy for introspection because 'Allah knows best'

Read what I wrote again, you will find it is very compassionate and understanding of this refusal to accept agency or critical scrutiny.

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #91 - April 30, 2010, 12:20 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 30, 2010, 11:57 AM
Not to give Muhammad's wives a nipple-gripple? But in all honestly, please explain Chapter 98 because its a mind fuck for me.

it is clear from the Quran that there were hypocrites who called themselves Muslim for example. i also think the verse is refering to a certain group of 'people of the book' since it says 'those among the people of the book'. the verse says this group of the people of the book really disbeleive and therefore perhaps a valid interpretation is that they are probably hypocrites just like the Muslim hypocrites at the time.

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #92 - April 30, 2010, 12:22 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on April 30, 2010, 12:20 PM
it is clear from the Quran that there were hypocrites who called themselves Muslim for example. i also think the verse is refering to a certain group of 'people of the book' since it says 'those among the people of the book'. the verse says this group of the people of the book really disbeleive and therefore perhaps a valid interpretation is that they are probably hypocrites just like the Muslim hypocrites at the time.

if you want to jump on irc.freenode.net chat it would be awesome - there are only two in the room right now lol

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #93 - April 30, 2010, 12:31 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on April 30, 2010, 11:30 AM
here we go with the brainwashing/indoctrination nonsense again. i don't know about you guys but when people generally reach the age of 18ish they start thinking for themselves - people have a wonderful tendency to do this (in fact i became an atheist for a couple of years when I was 18). it would also be practically quite conveniant for me to become an atheist/agnostic or whatever and renounce islam again. the reason i beleive is because i have faith - not because i feel a duty to community, race or religion or whatever.

I am beginning to find your explanantion of "faith" as a little too simplistic for someone of your ability. For example, if I said I believe an ice-cream beam created us, you would ask why.

If I replied with "I have faith", will that be intellectually good enough for you? Or would you privately think I was wacko?

Saying faith is not good enough - faith still requires a mental process for you to get there, and that is what we are asking for. Faith is not inherent and unsupported like you would have yourself & us believe. Thats the reason so many people believe in all different types of religions. There is a reason, and thats what we would like to the questions here. Not just a blanket "faith" reply which you seem to think answers them.

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #94 - April 30, 2010, 12:32 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 30, 2010, 12:55 AM
Abuyunus, why did Allah decide that Mohammed would be his last prophet? what do you feel is the reason for that? why doesn't he send a new prophet every decade, century, or millennium?
I am not asking you to speak on behalf of Allah. I am just asking what you personally believe is the reason for this intentional nonappearance.

maybe He thinks we are a wonderful creation and wants to see what we (collectively as humanity) can acheive with minimal help from Him.

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #95 - April 30, 2010, 12:37 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 30, 2010, 12:31 PM
I am beginning to find your explanantion of "faith" as a little too simplistic for someone of your ability. For example, if I said I believe an ice-cream beam created us, you would ask why.

If I replied with "I have faith", will that be intellectually good enough for you? Or would you privately think I was wacko?

Saying faith is not good enough - faith still requires a mental process for you to get there, and that is what we are asking for. Faith is not inherent and unsupported like you would have yourself & us believe. Thats the reason so many people believe in all different types of religions. There is a reason, and thats what we would like to the questions here. Not just a blanket "faith" reply which you seem to think answers them.

well if you go through my post history you will see that i have tried to explain things rationally and logically whenever possibe. i have partcipated in all kinds of threads from science-related to faith-realted. when something contradicts the logic the human mind posesses however, a beleiver has to rely on faith.

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #96 - April 30, 2010, 12:43 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on April 30, 2010, 12:37 PM
well if you go through my post history you will see that i have tried to explain things rationally and logically whenever possibe. i have partcipated in all kinds of threads from science-related to faith-realted. when something contradicts the logic the human mind posesses however, a beleiver has to rely on faith.

Talking about all religions collectively for a moment, including sun worshipping.

Like you say "when something contradicts the logic the human mind posesses however, a beleiver has to rely on faith." So where is this point of no return.

At what point should logic & rational take over and one should stop relying on faith in one's quest for the truth?

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #97 - April 30, 2010, 01:06 PM

well for example it's a bit ludicrous to think that the Sun or a beam of ice cream could create anything so it would be absurd to think they are God and start worshiping them. but a hypothetical entity that has the ability to create anything and everything would have the attributes of 'God'. This type of God (i.e. the creator of all things) is described in the Quran. hence the wonders of the universe we know about from the wonderous galaxies down to the wonderful way that electrons, quarks etc. behave and exist have a creator- they did not just happen to pop into existence.

although we can not prove that this entity exists, it is not that ludicrous to beleive that it is 'God' because the entity is defined as being something that is able to create anything and everything. the sun and a beam of ice cream or a teapot we already know do not have this ability.

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #98 - April 30, 2010, 01:46 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on April 30, 2010, 12:32 PM
maybe He thinks we are a wonderful creation and wants to see what we (collectively as humanity) can acheive with minimal help from Him.

You say it as if there wasn't the threat of eternal burning in hell simply for believing he doesn't exist. I'm sorry abuyunus I generally like your posts. I really do but this is just lame.
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Re: A mission statement
Reply #99 - April 30, 2010, 01:52 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on April 30, 2010, 01:06 PM
well for example it's a bit ludicrous to think that the Sun or a beam of ice cream could create anything so it would be absurd to think they are God and start worshiping them. but a hypothetical entity that has the ability to create anything and everything would have the attributes of 'God'. This type of God (i.e. the creator of all things) is described in the Quran. hence the wonders of the universe we know about from the wonderous galaxies down to the wonderful way that electrons, quarks etc. behave and exist have a creator- they did not just happen to pop into existence.

although we can not prove that this entity exists, it is not that ludicrous to beleive that it is 'God' because the entity is defined as being something that is able to create anything and everything. the sun and a beam of ice cream or a teapot we already know do not have this ability.

Why does he kill babies in earthquakes, permit genocide to happen under his watch, allow suicide bombers to murder innocent people in his name?

Why does his vessel oppress women, foment hatred of innocent people for no other reason that they don't worship him, promise Josef Fritzl style torture and psychopathic sadistic punishment in hell for the most petty reasons?

Oh yeah of course, you don't know, you have faith, so you trust him, end of story.

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #100 - April 30, 2010, 02:24 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 30, 2010, 01:46 PM
You say it as if there wasn't the threat of eternal burning in hell simply for believing he doesn't exist. I'm sorry abuyunus I generally like your posts. I really do but this is just lame.

it is just a thought i have that goes through my mind when thinking about this stuff from time to time (i agree a rather tenuous one), but it's fair to say really i don't know - it was something that angered me during my atheism, and something which i yet do not understand. i will also just point out here that the punishments of hell and rewards of heaven described in the Quran may be allegorical. in addition there is an opinion amongst well respected scholars such as Abdal Hakim Murad (lecturer in islamic studies at cambridge University) that hell is not forever for non-believers.

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #101 - April 30, 2010, 02:32 PM

OK abuyunus.

I have one question though. Do you believe Allah is kind? do you believe he is fair? do you believe he is benevolent?
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Re: A mission statement
Reply #102 - April 30, 2010, 02:51 PM

IA,

of course i do - my faith rests on thinking He must be all these things. it might at times seem like He is not fair and kind to us, but since we do not know His plan and may even be incapable of understanding it, it perhaps would be hasty to think He is not any of these things using our limited logic.

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #103 - April 30, 2010, 03:27 PM

My faith rests on fantasising that my imaginary friend is magical in many ways (some of which I haven't even conceived of yet). Sometimes my imaginary friend can come across as a bit of an asshat, but that's only because no one really understands the true nature of my imagination. Trying to apply logic to my fanciful conjurings is obviously a waste of time and effort, so just sit back and relax. Perhaps you'd like to try some of this Kool-Aid, you'll find it quite refreshing!

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #104 - April 30, 2010, 03:37 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on April 30, 2010, 02:51 PM
IA,

of course i do - my faith rests on thinking He must be all these things. it might at times seem like He is not fair and kind to us, but since we do not know His plan and may even be incapable of understanding it, it perhaps would be hasty to think He is not any of these things using our limited logic.

Well I admit, I don't know his plan (assuming he exists).

I know one thing though, a god that provides no solid physical proof of his existence and then sends everybody who believe he doesn't exist to hell for eternity just for thinking he doesn't exist and irrespective of whether they led a good life or were good human beings, to me that is not a kind, benevolent, or fair god.

Also, and please don't take it personally, I find it extremely appalling, supremacist, impudent, and offensive when someone says that they think such a god is fair, kind, or benevolent. The same god they believe will send me, Hassan, IsLame and countless others to hell where we would burn, be skinned, and made to drink lava for eternity just because we dared to not to have faith in him and regardless of what else we have done in our lives.

For anybody to think such a god is fair, kind, or benevolent is just sick.

I can't stress enough that this not directed at you abuyunus. Please understand where I'm coming from.
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Re: A mission statement
Reply #105 - April 30, 2010, 03:38 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on April 30, 2010, 01:06 PM
although we can not prove that this entity exists, it is not that ludicrous to beleive that it is 'God' because the entity is defined as being something that is able to create anything and everything. the sun and a beam of ice cream or a teapot we already know do not have this ability.

I understand what you mean, but dont think you understood what I was getting at. It can be a special type of ice cream that we only know as ice cream with our limited knowledge . Or the sun has special powers that science hasnt discovered as of yet. We all know science is always changing

Islam is more than just a link to an invisible deity, it is the rest of the belief system that comes with this belief, that you take full kit & caboodle as part of his delivery as well. Is it because you dont have a better choice, and thus stick to the least worst of the lot?

Its the fact that this being saw no better than creating a book and delivering this rest of the message through an ordinary man who lived 1400 years ago. Its the things that it says in this book, and that is all you have to go off.

At what point do we allow out conflicts with logic, e.g wife beating / how the prophets lead his life / heaven & hell /not eating pork / niqab / invisible djinn / its less than wholesome towards apostates, Jews, kaffirs / circumcision of perfect creation / contradictions in the quran / tsunami etc to outweigh any faith we have that its the truth?

Faith is not an all logic overriding entity, and it is used to excuse other religions too - and we know how many completely different belief systems that this can lead too.

So at what point should believers of all religions allow their personal logic conflicts to override their faith?

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #106 - April 30, 2010, 05:38 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 30, 2010, 03:37 PM
Well I admit, I don't know his plan (assuming he exists).

I know one thing though, a god that provides no solid physical proof of his existence and then sends everybody who believe he doesn't exist to hell for eternity just for thinking he doesn't exist and irrespective of whether they led a good life or were good human beings, to me that is not a kind, benevolent, or fair god.

Also, and please don't take it personally, I find it extremely appalling, supremacist, impudent, and offensive when someone says that they think such a god is fair, kind, or benevolent. The same god they believe will send me, Hassan, IsLame and countless others to hell where we would burn, be skinned, and made to drink lava for eternity just because we dared to not to have faith in him and regardless of what else we have done in our lives.

For anybody to think such a god is fair, kind, or benevolent is just sick.

I can't stress enough that this not directed at you abuyunus. Please understand where I'm coming from.

i have some idea where you are coming from IA. i rejected islam when i was younger purely on the fact that orthodox islam says people would go to Hell for simply not beleiving in God even when He never gave any decisive proof of his existence. In fact if I still had no faith I think there is more than a good chance that I would feel exactly the way you feel. i used to think the whole thing was absolutely ludicrous beyond belief. but i no longer listen to the orthodox views and try to interpret Quran best i can myself and listen to scholars i respect. i do sincerely beleive that God can even forgive non-belief, for example if someone has led a very good life, i do sincerely beleive that the punishments of hell described in Quran may be metaphorical, and i do sincerely beleive that hell may not be forever, whatever the offence.

a lot of people will think i'm talking nonsense no doubt, but i discuss these issues in detail in my blog and i should add that there are well respected scholars who share some of my views:

http://abuyunus2.wordpress.com/hell-eternity-and-reason/

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #107 - April 30, 2010, 05:58 PM

Doesn't the Koran say that the works of the unbelievers are void? Let me look up the verse.

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #108 - April 30, 2010, 06:08 PM

Found one:

18:105: They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight.
106: That is their reward, Hell, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
107: As to those who believe and work righteous deeds, they have, for their entertainment, the Gardens of Paradise,

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #109 - April 30, 2010, 06:13 PM

And:

3:22: They are those whose works will bear no fruit in this world and in the Hereafter nor will they have anyone to help.
9:17: It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.
14:18: The parable of those who reject their Lord is that their works are as ashes, on which the wind blows furiously on a tempestuous day: No power have they over aught that they have earned: that is the straying far, far (from the goal).

Also 2:217, but one could argue that "works" there is referring to the fighting of the infidels.

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #110 - April 30, 2010, 06:28 PM

7:147: Those who reject Our signs and the meeting in the Hereafter,- vain are their deeds: Can they expect to be rewarded except as they have wrought?
11:16: They are those for whom there is nothing in the Hereafter but the Fire: vain are the designs they frame therein, and of no effect and the deeds that they do!

24:39: But the Unbelievers,- their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds Allah (ever) with him, and Allah will pay him his account: and Allah is swift in taking account.

25:23: And We shall turn to whatever deeds they did (in this life), and We shall make such deeds as floating dust scattered about.

47:33: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and make not vain your deeds!

Did I prove my point?

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Re: A mission statement
Reply #111 - April 30, 2010, 06:29 PM

I don't doubt your sincerity abuyunus. However to say that unbelief (atheist/agnosticism) may not be punishable by hell is taking too big a leap of faith. Even for a believer like you who has already taken a similar leap
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