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Theme Changer

 Topic: A mission statement

 (Read 20852 times)
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  • A mission statement
     OP - April 27, 2010, 02:00 PM

    I've been discussing reform in Islam with a high school friend I haven't talked to in a really long time, and he's really changed, I'm very glad. He basically now believes that Islam can and should be reformed to be much more liberal. And he's shown that even though the reform movement in Islam is still weak, it nevertheless has a base. Here's a video capturing the spirit:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR7uNZTX-sA

    I've decided to move back home after graduating and joining and strengthening this reform movement. I think that coming out as an ex-Muslim would be a bad move. It'd frame me, as well as the movement at large, as an enemy of Islam, and therefore would make people much less likely to be persuaded by it. So instead of outright fighting against Islam, we should create a new Islam. And it can be done. I think it's been posted before, but there's already a reformist translation/interpretation of the Quran: http://www.irshadmanji.com/reformist-quran

    The fact is that Islamic civilization thrived on ijtihad, and it was only banned for political reasons. Muslims today live in the Middle Ages because that's when independent thought was banned and the Islamic government claimed that all questions have been answered and now we have a set number of schools of law and nothing else is accepted. We need to revive this spirit of ijtihad and show the extremists that they're absolutely wrong. Independent thought is very much a part of Islam and we're the ones keeping true to it.

    The mission, therefore, is twofold. We should:

     a) Establish mosques that are openly reformist (someone else mentioned this here and I really like the idea). And we shouldn't wait for the government to sanction this move -- that, of course, won't happen. Reformists should start by having Friday prayers on private property. Muslims shouldn't be afraid of this. As I said to my friend, it's as if your prayer doesn't count if it's not government-sanctioned. He endorsed the overall idea and said it's a bold and genius move. We should also have public forums for ijtihad. This existed during the Islamic empire, and it needs to be revived.

    b) Write up a manifesto for reform and disseminate it all around, mostly in traditional mosques. The movement shouldn't be elitist, nor should it be closed up. We should be as open and aggressive as possible. Essentially, we should do what Martin Luther did, but on a mass scale.

    Overall, we should frame our movement as being Islamic. That's the best way to actually achieve reform. We shouldn't separate liberalism from Islam. We need to prove that they're compatible.

    This would actually benefit apostates as well, as a liberal Islam would be much more accepting of science and apostasy.
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #1 - April 27, 2010, 07:03 PM


    Good luck  Afro


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #2 - April 27, 2010, 07:06 PM

    +1  Afro
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #3 - April 27, 2010, 07:09 PM


    He'll definitely need it  Afro


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #4 - April 27, 2010, 07:12 PM

    Here's a video capturing the spirit:

    Unfortunately I don't understand Arabic.
    But good luck anyway.
    Btw is KuwaitLiberal your channel?
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #5 - April 27, 2010, 07:44 PM

    Thanks, guys.

    Kenan: Some of it has subtitles.

    KuwaitLiberal is not my channel. I'm thinking of starting a YouTube channel as a platform for Islamic reform, but I still need to do a lot of reading and research. I'm currently reading Irshad Manji's 'The Trouble with Islam Today'. I'm then going to read the Quran alongside the reformist translation/interpretation, followed by heavy research into hadiths and the history of their compilation and all that. Once I have enough ammo, I'll fire away.

    Watching those people really gave me hope and courage. I even had a dream that I was arguing with my parents and aunts over the interpretation of the Quran. It wasn't very pleasant. Cheesy
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #6 - April 27, 2010, 07:55 PM

    Good for you Abood. I support the idea too. However, would apostasy/agnosticism/atheism really be legal/acceptable? I'm not sure where Manji and other reformists stand on it. I do agree that Islam needs its own reformation, but one of the biggest problems is that Islam, unlike Catholicism at the time of Luther, has no centralized authority. I do think that there will be more sects forming, formally and informally, perhaps based regionally, incorporating other cultural aspects of each region/country. I don't think Islam's reformation will follow Christianity's historical model very closely.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #7 - April 27, 2010, 07:55 PM

    Overall, we should frame our movement as being Islamic.

    This would actually benefit apostates as well, as a liberal Islam would be much more accepting of science and apostasy


    Apostates don't need to benefit from it - they can just leave Islam. After the personal toll and struggle many (probably most) apostates undergo, they are just free. They don't need to have their freedom validated by Islamic association.

     


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #8 - April 27, 2010, 08:05 PM

    Kenan: Some of it has subtitles.

    Yeah, approximately half of it. Unfortunately I have seen the subtitled bits before but I haven't seen the ones without subs.
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #9 - April 27, 2010, 08:22 PM

    I wish you the best of luck abood (in a sincere rather than pesimistic it will never work way) - you have a refreshing attitude - one that truly wants to benefit the whole of humanity rather than play the intolerant hopeless blame game.

    I think a really good first step would be to send all hadith and tafsir to the trash can - most intelligent people would agree that most of them are based on culture and politics and even contradict Quran. If it is just demonstrated that they are not a reliable source of history that would be a good first step - professional historians could discredit them very very easily (i.e. the fact that they were only passed down by word of mouth for at least a hundered years after the prophets death). Ironically there exists a hadith where the Prophet tells everyone not to write any hadith. I have been meaning to add a section on hadith in my blog for quite some time and hope to get it done very soon.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #10 - April 27, 2010, 08:31 PM

    Fantastic idea Abood. It sounds like you are really motivated and you have some good ideas. I hope it will take off!

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #11 - April 27, 2010, 08:34 PM

    Quote from: allat
    However, would apostasy/agnosticism/atheism really be legal/acceptable? I'm not sure where Manji and other reformists stand on it

    Well, considering that Manji admits she was on the verge of leaving Islam, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't wish death upon apostates.

    Also, the Quran mentions nothing about death for apostates.

    Quote
    I do agree that Islam needs its own reformation, but one of the biggest problems is that Islam, unlike Catholicism at the time of Luther, has no centralized authority.

    I disagree. The central authority is the main schools of thought in Islam. People don't need to go to a living authority figure to get their interpretations, but whoever they go to has to use the main schools of thought to be accepted. Ijtihad today is marginalized. I remember when I started interpreting the Quran myself, my dad told me what I'm doing is tahreef (tampering with the Quran).

    Quote from: billy
    Apostates don't need to benefit from it - they can just leave Islam. After the personal toll and struggle many (probably most) apostates undergo, they are just free. They don't need to have their freedom validated by Islamic association.

    But I'm guessing we don't want to die.

    Plus, developing the ability for critical thinking would make many more people question everything they believe in, wouldn't it? So they would be much more likely to accept science and rationality. Like many Christians today accept evolution, for example, many Muslims would accept it.

    Thanks, Abu Yunus and Luthiel.
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #12 - April 27, 2010, 08:41 PM

    Well, considering that Manji admits she was on the verge of leaving Islam, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't wish death upon apostates.

    It would have done - the problem is that there werent that many Muslims during the prophets time to be concerned enough about people leaving Islam.  He had bigger fish to fry, and reserved his hatred for the kaffirs.  Knowing Mo as well I do now, he would have said it in the Quran too, if it had been a problem.  In fact he said so in the Sahih hadith "If a Muslims discards his religion, kill him"

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #13 - April 27, 2010, 08:42 PM

    But Hadiths are not reliable, remember? Wink
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #14 - April 27, 2010, 08:52 PM

    Careful... Trying to get rid of hadith altogether will make you sound too much like the qur'an-only/submitters, which will put off a lot of Muslims, even those who might normally be for reform.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #15 - April 27, 2010, 08:52 PM

    ''But Hadiths are not reliable, remember?''

    A lot of ex-Muslims and non-Muslims appear to love hadith and 'know' Mo a lot better than a lot of liberal-minded Muslims  Roll Eyes

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #16 - April 27, 2010, 08:57 PM

    Careful... Trying to get rid of hadith altogether will make you sound too much like the qur'an-only/submitters, which will put off a lot of Muslims, even those who might normally be for reform.


    it's certainly going to be tricky finding the balance so that the mainstream are not alienated - we are true believers and want to be true to our religion - but I think most Muslims, the younger generation at least, can be be convinced that most hadith are unreliable and therefore should be discarded.

    I wouldn't say that i'm a quran-only either - i use hadith for telling me how to perform prayers, how much charity to give etc.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #17 - April 27, 2010, 09:10 PM

    ''But Hadiths are not reliable, remember?''

    A lot of ex-Muslims and non-Muslims appear to love hadith and 'know' Mo a lot better than a lot of liberal-minded Muslims  Roll Eyes

    No, we dont need the official Muslim biography of Muhammed (hadith) to tell us the true nature of Mohammed.  Its right there in the Quran. 

    Yes, you can argue there are peaceful surah in the Mecca period, but during the Medinan period we have plenty of bloodshed, cruelty, multiple marriages & wife beating to prove the case.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #18 - April 27, 2010, 09:11 PM

    A lot of ex-Muslims and non-Muslims appear to love hadith and 'know' Mo a lot better than a lot of liberal-minded Muslims  Roll Eyes

    Any objectively verifiable evidence to the contrary?

    Btw Irshad Manji is openly gay and as liberal as it gets.
    http://www.irshadmanji.com/
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #19 - April 27, 2010, 09:19 PM

    You'd think an almighty being, who communicates with mankind, would make the valid or healthy interpretations of his revelations dominant among his believers – and not allow the violent, filthy and slanderous ones to gain any significance, let alone political power for centuries! But I guess that's not what perfect guidance is for.

    Allah seems to be perfectly okay with the fact that the well established Islamic texts depict Mohammed as a horrible person and make Islam look violent and intolerant. Don't Muslims, who want to "reform Islam", ever waste a thought about this? Didn't the Islamic texts cause a lot of suffering?

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #20 - April 27, 2010, 09:20 PM

    But I'm guessing we don't want to die.

    Plus, developing the ability for critical thinking would make many more people question everything they believe in, wouldn't it? So they would be much more likely to accept science and rationality. Like many Christians today accept evolution, for example, many Muslims would accept it.


    Yeah, but the thing is, those who want to leave Islam don't want to hang around for Islam to chill out, smoke a spliff, listen to Bob Marley and be OK with Muslims deserting that creed.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #21 - April 27, 2010, 09:23 PM

    You'd think an almighty being, who communicates with mankind, would make the valid or healthy interpretations of his revelations dominant among his believers – and not allow the violent, filthy and slanderous ones to gain any significance, let alone political power for centuries! But I guess that's not what perfect guidance is for.


    What I never understand is if Allah protected the Qur'an why didn't he protect not only hadith - but the Gospel and Torah.

    We cannot assume that was hard for him or too much effort - so it can only mean he wanted it to confuse humanity - as it indeed did.

    If he didn't want it to confuse us then that would mean he is incompetent - astaghfirullah!
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #22 - April 27, 2010, 09:23 PM

    we are true believers and want to be true to our religion

     Roll Eyes
    Wanna bet than all Muslims feel this way?

    Even the ones who flew airliners into WTC.
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #23 - April 27, 2010, 09:29 PM

    No, we dont need the official Muslim biography of Muhammed (hadith) to tell us the true nature of Mohammed.  Its right there in the Quran.  

    Yes, you can argue there are peaceful surah in the Mecca period, but during the Medinan period we have plenty of bloodshed, cruelty, multiple marriages & wife beating to prove the case.


    according to the interpretation of many Muslims, fighting is only allowed in self defence no matter what part of the Quran you look at - i go through this in detail in my blog - indeed most Muslims already accept these interpretations. In fact most ordinary non-Muslims and political leaders (Obama, Cameron/Brown/Clegg) already accept that the mainstream moderate interpretation of Islam could be completely peaceful - this will help Muslims. Change needs to occur from within countries such as iran pakistan and saudi, but if the liberal movements in these countries have the support of the west (as i am sure they would) then it would make their tasks much easier. Personally I think with the younger generation of muslims we have a chance.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #24 - April 27, 2010, 09:38 PM

    Roll Eyes
    Wanna bet than all Muslims feel this way?



    No, for sure there are some assholes and criminals around. But most Muslims feel this way. The assholes and criminals can be defeated.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #25 - April 27, 2010, 09:43 PM

    fact most ordinary non-Muslims and political leaders (Obama, Cameron/Brown/Clegg) already accept that the mainstream moderate interpretation of Islam could be completely peaceful

    You are beginning to sound a bit gullible, I would say that too if I were in their shoes - What do you expect them to say  Huh?
    Quote
    Personally I think with the younger generation of muslims we have a chance.

    Hopefully, I agree that things will get better.   No thanks to Islam though, but thanks to humanism and other religious/non-religious cultures.

    But its still too far behind that even a 30% improvement is not enough judging by how far this intransigent medieval juggernaut is behind.   I think you are spending to much time with the moderates on the fringes, go back to the grassroots, the mosques & the madrassas.

    Islamically related  headlines will still continue in our lives and sadly our childrens lives too.

    Its too little, too late.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #26 - April 27, 2010, 09:44 PM

    No, for sure there are some assholes and criminals around. But most Muslims feel this way. The assholes and criminals can be defeated.


    If you are calling all those Muslims who accept hadith/tafseer arseholes and criminals that's very unfair! (my daughter and many other members of my family and friends accept hadith and Tafseers and they are NOT arseholes and criminals)
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #27 - April 27, 2010, 09:45 PM

    Quote from: billy
    Yeah, but the thing is, those who want to leave Islam don't want to hang around for Islam to chill out, smoke a spliff, listen to Bob Marley and be OK with Muslims deserting that creed.

    Wow, you're completely missing the point.

    Don't you want society to be more accepting towards apostates?
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #28 - April 27, 2010, 09:49 PM

    ''If you are calling all those Muslims who accept hadith arseholes and criminals that's very unfair! (my daughter and many other members of my family and friends accept hadith and they are NOT arseholes and criminals)''

    sorry Hassan, you misunderstood, I certainly do not feel that way about Muslims who accept Hadith and Tafsir. My comment was aimed at the likes of individuals who flew airliners into the WTC - I was responding to that part of the comment from Kenan.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #29 - April 27, 2010, 09:50 PM

    In fact most ordinary non-Muslims and political leaders (Obama, Cameron/Brown/Clegg) already accept that the mainstream moderate interpretation of Islam could be completely peaceful - this will help Muslims.

    You do realize that Bush, Blair and even Sharon praised Islam as a great religion of love and tolerance as well?

    Change needs to occur from within countries such as iran pakistan and saudi, but if the liberal movements in these countries have the support of the west (as i am sure they would) then it would make their tasks much easier.

    Support from the West? The ruling regime in KSA is io such good terms with US precisely because they are authoritarian.


    No, for sure there are some assholes and criminals around. But most Muslims feel this way. The assholes and criminals can be defeated.

    I am pretty sure that all Muslim feel that their interpretation of Islam is the right one.

    Problem is that there is no objectively verifiable evidence to verify that - all one has is one's belief. Why exactly do you think that your belief is more worthy compared to Salafis belief?

    But that's not really the issue here. The fundamental problem isn't whether Quran can be interpreted in a peaceful way but rather if Muslims are ever going to be capable of truly believing that a non-Muslim can
    have just as much (if not greater) access to The Truth as Muslims have.

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