When do you stop blaming God?

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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #60 - May 05, 2010, 06:59 AM

Quote from: Kenan on May 02, 2010, 11:10 AM
From my perspective there is no such thing as blasphemy.
Blasphemy is the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.
Which you did and your interpretation of what God can or cannot do goes against the interpretation of all Abrahamic religions.
I was merely saying that what you said there would be considered blasphemous by a vast majority of believers, even your Christian co-religionists.

Hi Kenan,

I couldn't find your definition of blasphemy in any dictionary. Could you tell me where you found the definition: Blasphemy is the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

The general agreement of most definitions I was able to find went more like:

1. disrespect for religion: disrespect for God or sacred things
2. something showing disrespect for religion: something done or said that shows disrespect for God or sacred things

Until next time, Lynna

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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #61 - May 05, 2010, 07:27 AM

The fact that there is such a concept as blasphemy in religion and that you can get punished for it just shows how religions are man-made. Intrinsic self-censorship.
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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #62 - May 05, 2010, 07:48 AM

Hi Blackdog,

Quote from: BlackDog on May 05, 2010, 06:41 AM
The question Lynna is why did God create a world where earth quakes can happen?

Speaking of free will is interesting, you say God gave us this gift. Well it does come with a price, the price of heaven and hell. Which is an interesting deal, I give you free will, you can rape children, their free will is thus negated (they didnt choose to be raped) and then there will be judgement day. Where finite life is either rewarded or punished infintly.

I'll have to think about the why did God create a world where earthquakes can happen question. I usually think of the damage and death that happens because of earthquakes being due to imperfection. I also know that there is a school of thought that puts foreward the idea that earthquakes are a needed thing for the renewal of the environment. So I'm not perpared to answer that now.

You are right that freewill comes at a price, but I understand that price to be somewhat different than you seem to think it is. My understanding of the Bible teaches me that there is no burning hell. (please see Ecc. 9:5 and Gen. 3:19) So since mankind returns to the earth when they die, if they're not resurrected, they simple aren't anymore. So, no eternal punishment. Like you have brought out some people use thier freewill to damage other people. I know as part of my life experience that a raped child is not robbed of all thier freewill. It is possible for that child to move beyond what was done to them and lead a productive life using thier freewill correctly. It is a comfort to me to know that people who continually use thier freewill to hurt others will someday just be gone and no longer have thoughts and feelings. So they will no longer hurt others nor will they be hurting. It is my understanding from the Bible the majority of people who make thier best effort to use thier freewill in the way that Jehovah directs them will live forever on earth restored to a paradise. (please see Ps. 37:10, 29) However this is not indifintely lasting if at some point that person uses thier freewill to harm others.

So how do you think that justice can be done to those who misuse there free will?

Until next time.
Lynna

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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #63 - May 05, 2010, 07:53 AM

I'm not sure I understand the question, or if in fact you are posing a question. I can't give you proof of any kind of afterlife, or one where we are judged so I can't say people that hurt others and get away with are punished. I'd like to believe this but I can't believe in something simply because it appeals to me.
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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #64 - May 05, 2010, 08:02 AM

Quote from: Lynna on May 05, 2010, 05:51 AM
Hi Osmanthus,

I perfer to use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, because it is written in modern English (my primary language). However if you perfer another I'll consider that one. It might perhaps be better to compare if there are actual meaning differences one to the other.

A link to Genesis 14:1-24 http://watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm

I picked that chapter rather randomly, because it had alot of names of people and and places. Those sort of things are useful when looking into the historicity of an event.

Looking forward to next time.

Lynna

I don't mind if you use that one since it is generally accepted to be pretty much as good as other translations, with the exception of a couple of minor details which wont affect this discussion.

So, what do you think is relevant about those verses?

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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #65 - May 05, 2010, 08:08 AM

Hi Blackdog,

Quote from: BlackDog on May 05, 2010, 07:27 AM
The fact that there is such a concept as blasphemy in religion and that you can get punished for it just shows how religions are man-made. Intrinsic self-censorship.

Do you feel that there should be no direction given to any one from any source?

You have mentioned about people who use there freewill to hurt and damage others. Do you think that the people who think it is a good thing to have sexual activities with childern should be able to continue freely without regulations and laws to stop them?

The thing is Blackdog, that the idea of blasphemy or more generally disrespect for anothers being and property is widely accepted as poor practise.

It wasn't even me who brought up the subject of blashemy. The person who did has only responded to say they don't think blasphemy even exists but yet it was them who said I was guilty of blasphemy.

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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #66 - May 05, 2010, 08:13 AM

I thought you wanted me to give you some account in Genesis as a starting point of a conversation in which you were going to prove that Genesis was not a book that contained actual history.

Did I miss understand?

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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #67 - May 05, 2010, 08:29 AM

Blackdog, I am seldom in a hurry. It is okay to take your time.

Yes, I was posing a question to you:

So, how do you think that justice can be done to those who misuse thier free will?

This question does not required that you think there is in an afterlife. It only asks how you think justice can be done in a case where a person uses thier freewill to hurt another.

But perhaps I ask the wrong question because it seems that you may be willing to think that people who hurt others are deserving of rather long term punishment.

Quote
I can't give you proof of any kind of afterlife, or one where we are judged so I can't say people that hurt others and get away with are punished. I'd like to believe this but I can't believe in something simply because it appeals to me.

Perhaps I misunderstand.

I am actually very interested in how people feel about things in general. So if you don't mind clarifing I would be glad to hear it.

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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #68 - May 05, 2010, 08:32 AM

Quote from: Lynna on May 05, 2010, 08:13 AM
I thought you wanted me to give you some account in Genesis as a starting point of a conversation in which you were going to prove that Genesis was not a book that contained actual history.

Did I miss understand?

No, you didn't. My point is that if you are going to use those verses to assert that the Bible is a historical document then you will need to tie the events mentioned in those verses to other evidence.

For instance, first you will need to decide on which period those verses are referring to. Was it 3,000 years ago? 3,500? 4,000? When? What evidence do you have for choosing a particular period?

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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #69 - May 05, 2010, 08:42 AM

Okay. I'm sorry I'm being a little slow on the uptake.

You want me to give some reason why I think it is historical first. Then you'll have your say.

I think I got it now. I should be back to you, maybe on Saturday, if I can.

Good night for now because 0340 my time and I have a long drive home.

I hope and pray that you are well until we meet again.

Lynna

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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #70 - May 05, 2010, 08:57 AM

Lynna we have laws for child molesters. And prisons and even therapy. We have rules, it's not perfect but then again what is in this world? Why do we need a God or a holy book to tell us that harming children is wrong?

And end of times judgement I meant there are people that will get away with things because nobody knows except for their victims what they did. But that's reality.
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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #71 - May 05, 2010, 10:06 AM

Quote
Who said it? Is it your own thought?

Yea, thats my own quote *Superman pose*

Actually, the jebova question was a joke But thatnks for awnsering anyway... i feel quite ignored sometimes

Anyway... if im able, as a normal human, to come up with about a million things i could do better in creating a world, if i had the powers that are attributed to *god*, i think we can say for certain that hes eather a dick, if he exists, with a LOT of complexes and mental issues, OR, and this is the theory i prefer, there is no such thing as a personal god.

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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #72 - May 05, 2010, 01:35 PM

Quote from: Lynna on May 05, 2010, 06:59 AM
Hi Kenan,

I couldn't find your definition of blasphemy in any dictionary. Could you tell me where you found the definition: Blasphemy is the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

The general agreement of most definitions I was able to find went more like:

1. disrespect for religion: disrespect for God or sacred things
2. something showing disrespect for religion: something done or said that shows disrespect for God or sacred things

Until next time, Lynna

I was specifically referring to theological definition which is more relevant here.
Here: http://www.tfd.com/blasphemy
Here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blasphemy

Besides if you think about it you'll see that disrespecting god is the same as defining gods qualities. Because god is apparently incomprehensible.
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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #73 - May 13, 2010, 08:18 AM

Quote from: Lynna on May 02, 2010, 07:20 AM
Hi Hassan
No problem with your late reply. I am not frequently able to be on line. So I perfer slow conversations.

Yes, I am saying that Jehovah did not plan or cause ever detail of what is happening. Neither has the activity of each individual been perdetermined by Jehovah.

Jehovah however does know how the outcome or end result of world history will be.

As has been pointed out at:

Isaiah 46:8 “Remember this, that YOU people may muster up courage. Lay it to heart, YOU transgressors. 9 Remember the first things of a long time ago, that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; 10 the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, ‘My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do’; 11 the One calling from the sunrising a bird of prey, from a distant land the man to execute my counsel. I have even spoken [it]; I shall also bring it in. I have formed [it], I shall also do it.

There are things that Jehovah chooses to do and will do. For example Jehovah says everything that is my delight I shall do. The things is to understand what it is that Jehovah delights to do.

You bring up about earthquakes and post a picture of the horrible destruction and death cause by one. Jehovah did not cause the earthquake in Hatie. Most all earthquakes are caused by geological faults. A great deal of the distruction is caused because first of all people live in these geologic fault areas by desire or by need and second of all because of poor construction techniques.

Can Jevovah cause earthquakes. Yes. Has Jehovah ever caused an earthquake. Yes. The Bible records that Korah, Dathan, Abiram and thier families with into the grave alive. (Numbers 24:1-50). Did these people have to come to this end. No. They could have made another choice but give it no regard and suffered for their own action.

If you examine the Bible every time Jehovah caused a disaster people were given a clear warning a head of to time so they could take action to avoid the disaster.

Now you have me confused.

How do you figure that Jevovah is "limited and incompetent"? Because I said he didn't cause that earthquake?

Would it cause Jehovah to be "limited and incompetent" because he chose not to take a certain action at certain time for a certain reason?

Or is it because mankind has freewill?

Would it absolutely cause Jehovah to be "limited and incompetent" because he choses to let you and me make our own choices? It seems far more absurd to me to think my actions are completely out of my control, perdetermined by God, and then I will be judged and punished or rewarded based on some thing that was totally out of my control.

I hope to hear from you again,

until next time

Lynna

Hi Lynna,

Again I apologise for the late reply.

You ask why did I say God is limited and incompetent? Because that is what you seem to be suggesting when you say he didn't plan all this.

Let me put it this way:

Is God incapable of achieving his purpose/goal/end without it resulting in unbearable suffering for man?
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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #74 - May 14, 2010, 04:26 PM

Is God incapable of achieving his purpose/goal/end without it resulting in unbearable suffering for man?

The only redemption of God is that He does not exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Re: When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #75 - May 21, 2010, 08:31 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 13, 2010, 08:18 AM
Hi Lynna,

Again I apologise for the late reply.

You ask why did I say God is limited and incompetent? Because that is what you seem to be suggesting when you say he didn't plan all this.

Let me put it this way:

Is God incapable of achieving his purpose/goal/end without it resulting in unbearable suffering for man?

Hi Hassan,

Once again no problem with your late reply.

It has been such awhile since I've been able to be here that I had to review and really think how this conversation was going.

The most direct answer to your question is: Jehovah is capable of achieving his purpose/goal/end without it resulting in unbearable suffering for mankind.

However that is not the answer that best explains the situation.

If you will please consider the first two chapters of Genesis, no mention of the problems that mankind now has not even death except in the case of breaking God's law. (2:17)

The man was put in a good home given instruction about work to do. Given a way to get good food. Given a wife to have a nice family. These two first people had alot of free choice about thier activities. They had just one law. (2:17) They didn't need the fruit of that tree to live. (2:9)

Jehovah did not make the the one law so hard as to make it difficult on the man and woman.(2:16,17)

Jehovah did not predetermine that the one law would be disregarded by the man and woman. Jehovah however did know that it was possible for the man and woman to chose to disregard that law and chose death. Death is the punishment for separating ones self from Jehovah.

So even though Jehovah did not want the suffering to occur on the earth that has occurred he has allow it provide an unchallangable answer to an issue that was raised along long time ago in that garden.

Does Jehovah have the right to direct his creation.

If you will please take a look at chapter three.

Satan straight out says Jehovah has lied and is holding back what is good. (3:4,5)

So what is the truth?

Is mankind better able to rule/direct themself?

Is mankind on their own able to stop suffering? make peace? end sickness?

There are alot of people right here on this site that think there is no God and mankind would be better off without, in thier own words, the illustion of a god. Okay, so be it this is thier time to prove what they can do.

It is my belief due to my understanding of the Bible that Jehovah will step in in the near future in such a way as to leave no doubt that it is by divine means that the problems of mankind will be resolved.

Likelyn not the answer your looking for.

until another time.

Lynna.

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When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #76 - April 16, 2014, 01:27 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 21, 2010, 09:10 PM
I have been an ex-Muslim for 3 years now - and have reached the point where I can't say I truly believe in God anymore - if there is one he sure kept it quiet.

But I still feel angry with God at times. I still keep blaming him for the hurt I feel and the suffering in the world.

Just wondering if people here feel anger towards a God they don't believe in?

And why?

As an atheist, I'm basically blaming no one.
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When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #77 - April 16, 2014, 03:20 PM

I don’t really blame God at all. On a realistic level, I’m confident it is not a real thing. I simply cannot imagine a scenario in which all of the contradictions that make up what we call God could actually exist as an intity.

That said, there are times when I consider the god of the bible or the Qur’an and think, “what if this oaf were real? What if he really is as bipolar, tyrannical, narcissistic, and incompetent as the scriptures unwittingly make him out to be? What if he really does crave the worship and obedience of his “slaves” in order to build his self confidence and boost his ego? What if he really does plan on torturing 90% of humanity for not believing his flawed, contradictory, rambling “revelations?” What if he really is this crazed, eccentric, celestial Muammar Gaddafi with no real concern for the creatures he rules over? What if he really is this obsessed mad physicist who intricately created all of the seemingly pointless galaxies, stars, planets, asteroids, and comets just to destroy them all in a fit of rage on the Day of Judgment? What if he really is as homophobic as he is made out to be, destroying entire towns as part of a massive hate crime just because he found gay sex icky? What if he really does hate women as much as he seems to? What if he really does inflict kids with cancer and cause innocents to suffer, without regard for the real harm he is causing and unable to sympathize with the suffering of others, just because he wanted to “test what they might do?” What if he really is this hateful, homophobic, misogynistic, self centered prick with no regard or concern for anything apart from having his own ego stroked?

Then I think to myself, what possibly could have made him that way? What could his story possibly be? Was he always like that, or was he traumatized at some point in time in his poor little God life? Why the insistence on not having any family or partners? Why the constant need to be reminded of how great he is? Why the apparent low self esteem and the craving for love and recognition? Why so much hate? Why so much anger? Why the sadistic torture? What possibly could have gone wrong in God’s life that made him like that? What would it be like to get into the mind of God and have him talk through his issues?

Of course, as none of it is real it is a sort of mute exercise, but I think it would make an interesting plot for a story. Looking at the life of God before he was God and figuring out what the hell happened.
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When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #78 - April 16, 2014, 03:42 PM

^

The allah of the Quran is said to experience anger/wrath and love but if there was an all powerful god I don't see any reason why he would have any emotions at all (at least any human-like emotions).

We feel a variety of emotions based on the experiences we go through during our day to day life. We experience positive and negative emotions based on what happened to us during the day, whether we failed or succeeded in achieving goals and the status of the relationships we value.

But according to the Quran Allah has no goals, desires, relationships, experiences that affect him so how is he even supposed to feel emotions.

And besides we acquired our ability to feel emotions through the process of natural selection. That would require us to ask how allah acquired the ability to have emotions.

Or if somehow he does feel emotions I seriously doubt those would depend on the activities of some extremely small organisms on an extremely small speck of a planet among countless other specks in his possibly infinite cosmos.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #79 - April 16, 2014, 03:46 PM

^But that is only what he tells us. What if he really had a crazy, traumatic childhood he is trying to block out? “I have no parents. I have no family. Humans, LOVE AND OBEY ME OR I’LL TORTURE YOU!!”

Sounds like a guy with serious issues to me.
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Reply #80 - April 16, 2014, 03:59 PM

Well yeah, but still why is he focused specifically on earth and humans and not other parts of the galaxies.

What's the reason for him to get upset when I drink a pint of beer and not when one asteroid crashes into another asteroid.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #81 - April 16, 2014, 04:23 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on April 16, 2014, 03:20 PM
there are times when I consider the god of the bible or the Qur’an and think, “what if

I don't even have that.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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When do you stop blaming God?
Reply #82 - April 16, 2014, 04:25 PM

It's more a hypothetical question than pondering a possibility.
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Reply #83 - April 16, 2014, 04:30 PM

Ah, misread it.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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