zulqarnain in Quran

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- shoaib
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zulqarnain in Quran
OP - April 17, 2010, 06:11 PM

Hi friends! I have one question to all those members who know Arabic since i am not very good at Arabic. Quran says in surah Kahf 18:86

"They will ask thee of Dhu'l-Qarneyn. Say: I shall recite unto you a remembrance of him.
Lo! We made him strong in the land and gave him unto every thing a road.
And he followed a road
Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness."

This verse clearly says that Zulqarnain reached the setting place of the sun which is absolutely unscientific statement. But few days before i watched dr zakir naik debate with William Campbell in which he gave a good explanation of this verse.
According to his explanation.....

"The Arabic word used is Maghrib. It can be used for time as well as place. When we say sunset, sunset can be taken for time. If I say the sun set at 7 PM, I am using it for time. If I say the sun set in the West, it means I am taking it for place. So here if you use the word Maghrib for time. So Zulqarnain did not reach that place of sunset –use it for time- he reached there at the TIME of sunset."

My knowledge of arabic is not very good but i feel that this translation is incorrect. What do you think about it?
- yeezevee
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #1 - April 17, 2010, 07:45 PM

http://www.forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=87203#p87203

Quote
018.086 : Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

018.086: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

018.094: They said: O Zulqarnain! surely Gog and Magog make mischief in the land[/]b Shall we then pay you a tribute on condition that you should raise a barrier between us and them

Gog and Magog .. Jinns flying.. Stars shining.. dark water .. liquid between the ribs..Silly verses dumb booklet..

please read the link and the posts in that folder dear shoaib., But where is Sania?? lol.. just kidding

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- cosmicdancer
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #2 - April 17, 2010, 08:01 PM

Quote from: shoaib on April 17, 2010, 06:11 PM
Hi friends! I have one question to all those members who know Arabic since i am not very good at Arabic. Quran says in surah Kahf 18:86

"They will ask thee of Dhu'l-Qarneyn. Say: I shall recite unto you a remembrance of him.
Lo! We made him strong in the land and gave him unto every thing a road.
And he followed a road
Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness."

This verse clearly says that Zulqarnain reached the setting place of the sun which is absolutely unscientific statement. But few days before i watched dr zakir naik debate with William Campbell in which he gave a good explanation of this verse.
According to his explanation.....

"The Arabic word used is Maghrib. It can be used for time as well as place. When we say sunset, sunset can be taken for time. If I say the sun set at 7 PM, I am using it for time. If I say the sun set in the West, it means I am taking it for place. So here if you use the word Maghrib for time. So Zulqarnain did not reach that place of sunset –use it for time- he reached there at the TIME of sunset."

My knowledge of arabic is not very good but i feel that this translation is incorrect. What do you think about it?

It's nonsense.

The verse says "He reached the setting place of (possessive) the sun" بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ

Not he reached it at Maghrib!

On top of that it uses the verb "Taghrubu" = "to set" - and the subject of the verb is "The sun" then the preposition "in" It is clearly saying he reached the place where the sun sets in a muddy spring

حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ

The tafseer of Jalalayn says

"حتى إذا بلغ مغرب الشمس" موضع غروبها "وجدها تغرب في عين حمئة" ذات حمأة وهي الطين الأسود

"Until he reached the setting place of the sun" means the place it sets - "He found it setting in a muddy spring" - That means 'having mud' and that means 'black mud'

The best one can do with this verse is say it is metaphorical.
- shoaib
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #3 - April 17, 2010, 10:17 PM

Quote from: yeezevee link=topic=9871.msg252958#msg252958 .

please read the link and the posts in that folder dear shoaib., But where is Sania?? lol.. just kidding
[/quote

Thanks for your link yeezevee. I hope it will help me find out the answer of my question. As far as sania is concerned, she is with me and we are planning honey moon..
- shoaib
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #4 - April 17, 2010, 10:37 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 17, 2010, 08:01 PM
It's nonsense.

The verse says "He reached the setting place of (possessive) the sun" بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ

Not he reached it at Maghrib!

On top of that it uses the verb "Taghrubu" = "to set" - and the subject of the verb is "The sun" then the preposition "in" It is clearly saying he reached the place where the sun sets in a muddy spring

حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ

The tafseer of Jalalayn says

"حتى إذا بلغ مغرب الشمس" موضع غروبها "وجدها تغرب في عين حمئة" ذات حمأة وهي الطين الأسود

"Until he reached the setting place of the sun" means the place it sets - "He found it setting in a muddy spring" - That means 'having mud' and that means 'black mud'

The best one can do with this verse is say it is metaphorical.

Thank you very much hassan for your reply... but can you tell me what would be the arabic sentence if this verse was saying that he reached there at maghrib.
Secondly What is the exact grammatical mistake in this translation of dr zakir naik. Why can't we translate it in this way? please give me some more detail.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #5 - April 17, 2010, 11:02 PM

Quote from: shoaib on April 17, 2010, 10:37 PM

Thank you very much hassan for your reply... but can you tell me what would be the arabic sentence if this verse was saying that he reached there at maghrib.
Secondly What is the exact grammatical mistake in this translation of dr zakir naik. Why can't we translate it in this way? please give me some more detail.

If it meant he reached there at the "time" of of the setting sun then it would have to say something like:

حتى إذا بلغ ارضا وقت غروب الشمس

"Until he reached a land at the time of the setting of the sun."

Or

حتى إذا بلغ ارضا عند غروب الشمس

"Until he reached a land at the setting of the sun."

As the verse actually stands:

حتى إذا بلغ مغرب الشمس

"Until he reached the place where the sun sets"

It simply can't possibly mean he reached there at the time of the setting sun since the verb reached would have to have take another object - like "land" - as in my example and then a qualification showing it meant at the time of such as; time وقت or a preposition like; at عند and it would have to say "setting" غروب and not "The place of setting" مغرب So it would say: عند غروب الشمس

It is funny because Naik is obviously using the common usage of Maghrib in Muslims-speak that means the "time of Maghrib prayer" and projecting that back on to the old Arabic of the Qur'an. He is clearly an idiot who doesn't understand Arabic properly.
- shoaib
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #6 - April 18, 2010, 12:01 AM

Thanks again for sharing your immense knowledge with me Hassan. Now i think i understood why this translation is wrong. But i still want other people to tell me what they think about this verse.
I'm amazed that dr zakir naik, who's very respectable among muslims, can give such a wrong interpretation of quranic verse. This is the second time i have found his mistake about Arabic language. The word dahaha according to his dictionary means egg shaped. What do you think about this wrong meaning hassan?
- Zebedee
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #7 - April 18, 2010, 12:07 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 17, 2010, 11:02 PM
If it meant he reached there at the "time" of of the setting sun then it would have to say something like:

حتى إذا بلغ ارضا وقت غروب الشمس

"Until he reached a land at the time of the setting of the sun."

Or

حتى إذا بلغ ارضا عند غروب الشمس

"Until he reached a land at the setting of the sun."

As the verse actually stands:

حتى إذا بلغ مغرب الشمس

"Until he reached the place where the sun sets"

It simply can't possibly mean he reached there at the time of the setting sun since the verb reached would have to have take another object - like "land" - as in my example and then a qualification showing it meant at the time of such as; time وقت or a preposition like; at عند and it would have to say "setting" غروب and not "The place of setting" مغرب So it would say: عند غروب الشمس

It is funny because Naik is obviously using the common usage of Maghrib in Muslims-speak that means the "time of Maghrib prayer" and projecting that back on to the old Arabic of the Qur'an. He is clearly an idiot who doesn't understand Arabic properly.

Either that or he's lying, which is entirely possible. Just like he and Yusuf Ali translate the words 'thumma' and 'ba'da dhalika' as 'moreover,' just so the Qur'an doesn't look like it contradicts itself.

It's obvious and demonstrable nonsense, but they do it anyway and get away with it because no-one calls them on it.

And on the subject of the Arabic language, I'd like to ask you something, if I may, Mr. Hassan.

When looking at the Qur'an in Arabic, I notice that some verbs have a 'fa' particle in front of them. For example, in 23:14:

ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا ٱلنُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا ٱلْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا ٱلْمُضْغَةَ عِظَاماً فَكَسَوْنَا ٱلْعِظَامَ لَحْماً ثُمَّ أَنشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقاً آخَرَ فَتَبَارَكَ ٱللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ ٱلْخَالِقِينَ

The first person plural verb 'khalaqna' appears in this verse also as 'fakhalaqna.'

Are these words different verbs? Or does the 'fa' in front of a verb mean something?
- cosmicdancer
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #8 - April 18, 2010, 12:16 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 18, 2010, 12:01 AM
The word dahaha according to his dictionary means egg shaped. What do you think about this wrong meaning hassan?

Again nonsense from Naik - it means to flatten out as an Ostrich flattens out it's nest - which is where Naik takes his tenious inference from.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #9 - April 18, 2010, 12:18 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on April 18, 2010, 12:07 AM
Either that or he's lying, which is entirely possible. Just like he and Yusuf Ali translate the words 'thumma' and 'ba'da dhalika' as 'moreover,' just so the Qur'an doesn't look like it contradicts itself.

It's obvious and demonstrable nonsense, but they do it anyway and get away with it because no-one calls them on it.

And on the subject of the Arabic language, I'd like to ask you something, if I may, Mr. Hassan.

When looking at the Qur'an in Arabic, I notice that some verbs have a 'fa' particle in front of them. For example, in 23:14:

ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا ٱلنُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا ٱلْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا ٱلْمُضْغَةَ عِظَاماً فَكَسَوْنَا ٱلْعِظَامَ لَحْماً ثُمَّ أَنشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقاً آخَرَ فَتَبَارَكَ ٱللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ ٱلْخَالِقِينَ

The first person plural verb 'khalaqna' appears in this verse also as 'fakhalaqna.'

Are these words different verbs? Or does the 'fa' in front of a verb mean something?

Same verb - fa just means so/then.
- Zebedee
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #10 - April 18, 2010, 12:31 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 18, 2010, 12:18 AM
Same verb - fa just means so/then.

Ah, thanks.
- shoaib
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #11 - April 18, 2010, 12:39 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 18, 2010, 12:16 AM
Again nonsense from Naik - it means to flatten out as an Ostrich flattens out it's nest - which is where Naik takes his tenious inference from.

I think it also means to spread out. Am i correct?
- kaiwai
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #12 - April 18, 2010, 12:41 AM

The excuse I commonly hear is that the versus is allegorical in that it is 'like' rather than actually setting in a muddy pool. Is there any evidence to back up the apologists position?

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- shoaib
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #13 - April 18, 2010, 12:46 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 17, 2010, 08:01 PM

The best one can do with this verse is say it is metaphorical.

Hassan it doesn't seem metaphorical.
- kaiwai
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #14 - April 18, 2010, 12:51 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 17, 2010, 08:01 PM
The best one can do with this verse is say it is metaphorical.

And thus where do you draw the when something is metaphorical versus actual?

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- Zebedee
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #15 - April 18, 2010, 01:16 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 18, 2010, 12:51 AM
And thus where do you draw the when something is metaphorical versus actual?

Well, if the verse means that the Qur'an is in error, then it's metaphorical. If the Qur'an is not in error, then it's literal.

I believe that's how it works.
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #16 - April 18, 2010, 01:40 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 17, 2010, 08:01 PM
The best one can do with this verse is say it is metaphorical.

Please shoaib do realize that when Ibn Rushd said metaphorical he got his books burnt and when Nasr Hamid Abu Zayed said so Islamists divorced him from his wife, just thought i should mention that.
- kaiwai
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #17 - April 18, 2010, 01:57 AM

Quote from: kimo on April 18, 2010, 01:40 AM
Please shoaib do realize that when Ibn Rushd said metaphorical he got his books burnt and when Nasr Hamid Abu Zayed said so Islamists divorced him from his wife, just thought i should mention that.

On the matter of Ibn Rushd I found this tit bit on wikipedia:

Quote
He stresses the importance of analytical thinking as a prerequisite to interpret the Qur'an; this is in contrast to orthodox Ash'ari theology, where the emphasis is less on analytical thinking but on extensive knowledge of sources other than the Qur'an, i.e. the hadith.

Is this the future of a moderate/liberal Islam?

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- cosmicdancer
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #18 - April 18, 2010, 08:51 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 18, 2010, 12:39 AM
I think it also means to spread out. Am i correct?

Yes, spread out, flatten, level out etc...
- cosmicdancer
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #19 - April 18, 2010, 08:56 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 18, 2010, 12:46 AM

Hassan it doesn't seem metaphorical.

No, it doesn't, but there are some who claim that it should be taken as metaphorical, i.e. that "He reached the place of the setting sun and found it setting in a muddy spring" is a metaphor for what it 'looked' like to him.

It is a weak argument imho but at least it's better than Naik's argument of saying he arrived there at the time of the setting sun.
- kaiwai
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #20 - April 18, 2010, 10:24 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 18, 2010, 08:56 AM
No, it doesn't, but there are some who claim that it should be taken as metaphorical, i.e. that "He reached the place of the setting sun and found it setting in a muddy spring" is a metaphor for what it 'looked' like to him.

It is a weak argument imho but at least it's better than Naik's argument of saying he arrived there at the time of the setting sun.

Hence one is really stuck between either taking the whole lot literally or the whole lot metaphorically; because if you end up doing half and half - who decides what is and isn't taken literally?

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- cosmicdancer
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #21 - April 18, 2010, 10:33 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 18, 2010, 10:24 AM
Hence one is really stuck between either taking the whole lot literally or the whole lot metaphorically; because if you end up doing half and half - who decides what is and isn't taken literally?

Well there are both metaphorical and literal verses according to the Qur'an itself (see verse below). So one can't take it all as one or the other - but you are right, what ones are literal and what ones are metaphorical seems to be a lottery at times.

"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." (3:7)
- shoaib
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #22 - April 18, 2010, 10:43 AM

yeh i agree with you Hassan.... It's a very weak argument. This sentence is not metaphorical and anyone who gives this argument actually accepts his defeat. But I think Naik's argument is deceptive and can satisfy any muslim who is unaware of Arabic. There was a time when I was very big fan of dr zakir naik and considered his words very authentic. Unfortunately when i started my research, I found many mistakes in zakir's debates. I think many muslims will just rely on his words therefore i think this argument is more powerful. But this argument can't deceive knowledgeable people like you. i wonder why Dr William Campbell didn't point out this mistake during debate.
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #23 - April 18, 2010, 11:36 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 18, 2010, 12:01 AM
The word dahaha according to his dictionary means egg shaped. What do you think about this wrong meaning hassan?

The funny thing is that even if it 100% clearly said the Earth was egg shaped it would STILL be wrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_eKYKk5voY

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #24 - April 18, 2010, 11:57 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tVY9f_ABms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaXmrtwmhUI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E66BYipz0o0
that is one of 15 by Zakir Naik-on- Quran and modern science ..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #25 - April 18, 2010, 12:26 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on April 18, 2010, 11:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tVY9f_ABms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaXmrtwmhUI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E66BYipz0o0
that is one of 15 by Zakir Naik-on- Quran and modern science

When I see so many people located in once place I can't help but wonder how people can be that ignorant and then at the same time wave of pitty over comes me. This wave of pitty results in me feeling sorry for otherwise well intentioned people appearing at such a event hoping to improve their religious knowledge and maybe heaven in the after life. The conflict of destain and pitty seems to be stange I guess.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- cosmicdancer
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #26 - April 18, 2010, 01:03 PM

Just reading the Tafseer of al-Qurtubi:

دحوت الشيء أدحوه دحوا : إذا بسطته . ويقال لعش النعامة أدحى ; لأنه مبسوط على وجه الأرض

(Explaining the verb daha): "(You say) 'Dahawta something' and Adhuwhu Dahwan' if you spread it out, and the nest of an ostrich is called Udhiyy because it is spread out on the ground."

btw this is one of the verses that seems to contradict another.

Here it seems to say that after making the heavens (see preceding verses 79:27-29) God then spread out the earth.

وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا

Yet that seems to contradict 2:29 that says he created the earth then turned to the heaven.

هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُمْ مَا فِي الْأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاءِ فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ

The tafseers say that he did indeed create the earth first but did not "spread it out" - then he made the heavens and then when he finished that he went back to the earth to finish it off by "spreading it out".

As tafseer Jalalyn says " والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها " بسطها وكانت مخلوقة قبل السماء من غير دحو

"And the earth - after that - he daha it - meaning he spread it out and it was already created before the heavens but wasn't spread out yet.

So I guess it was kinda like Blue Peter where they do a bit and leave the glue to dry - in the meantime they do another bit and then come back to the first bit later.

ps - If Naik was right and it means he made it egg shaped then it must have been another shape before that - perhaps a hexagon
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #27 - April 18, 2010, 01:10 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 18, 2010, 12:16 AM
Again nonsense from Naik - it means to flatten out as an Ostrich flattens out it's nest - which is where Naik takes his tenious inference from.

There is an another Arabic word which is very confusing in the same verse. This word is wajada which means "found". All the authentic translations of Quran have translated this word as "found" but again according to dr zakir naik's dictionary it means "appeared". May be this is second meaning of this word but if you read the same verse you will find the word wajada used as "found".

Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found (wajada) it setting in
a muddy spring, and found (wajada) a people thereabout.

Obviously here this word can't be translated as appeared.

But again Dr Zakir Naik gives very good answer that can satisfy any muslim who is unaware of Arabic.

"Dr. William Campbell knows Arabic. Wajada
means… you can look in the dictionary also; it means it appeared. Allah (swt) is
describing what appeared to Zulqarnain. If I make the statement that a student in the
class said 2+2=5 and you say “oh Zakir said 2+2=5. I didn’t say. I am telling that
the student in my class said 2+2=5. I am not wrong, the student is wrong. There are
various ways to try and analyze this word. One is this way, according to
Muhammad Asad, that vajada means it appeared to. It appeared to Zulqarnain".

Do you think this interpretation is correct.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #28 - April 18, 2010, 01:19 PM

Quote from: shoaib on April 18, 2010, 01:10 PM
There is an another Arabic word which is very confusing in the same verse. This word is wajada which means "found". All the authentic translations of Quran have translated this word as "found" but again according to dr zakir naik's dictionary it means "appeared". May be this is second meaning of this word but if you read the same verse you will find the word wajada used as "found".

Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found (wajada) it setting in
a muddy spring, and found (wajada) a people thereabout.

Obviously here this word can't be translated as appeared.

But again Dr Zakir Naik gives very good answer that can satisfy any muslim who is unaware of Arabic.

"Dr. William Campbell knows Arabic. Wajada
means… you can look in the dictionary also; it means it appeared. Allah (swt) is
describing what appeared to Zulqarnain. If I make the statement that a student in the
class said 2+2=5 and you say “oh Zakir said 2+2=5. I didn’t say. I am telling that
the student in my class said 2+2=5. I am not wrong, the student is wrong. There are
various ways to try and analyze this word. One is this way, according to
Muhammad Asad, that vajada means it appeared to. It appeared to Zulqarnain".

Do you think this interpretation is correct.

No, again he shows his ignorance of Arabic. If it was in the passive form (To be found i.e appeared): wujida وُجِدَ he might have a leg to stand on, but even then it would have to be in the feminine passive = wujidat وُجِدَتْ (since the sun is feminine) and the "it" ها would be totally redundant and make no sense.

This is all academic, since the verb is not passive, it's in the transitive form (To find sth) and so it must have a subject and an object. The subject is Thul-Qarnayn and the object is "it" ها i.e. the sun.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #29 - April 18, 2010, 01:49 PM

I must admit I don't know much about Zakir Naik - I never took any notice of him and that sort of celebrity preacher that seem to love their own voice and sophistry skills in front of an audience more than anything - but the more I hear of him now the more I realise what an idiot he is.
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