zulqarnain in Quran

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #60 - April 19, 2010, 07:22 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 19, 2010, 07:11 AM
Hassan can you please explain in more detail why this verse can't be taken as metaphor.

I've just suddenly realised (I was too lazy to read further back than the quotation) that this is the story of Musa going on a journey. Well, if that is the case, it is story so obviously not everything in it will be taken literally - in the case of the story, it appears as a story thus doesn't have to be literally true thus there is nothing contradictory about 18:86. Stories were used to explain 'truths' and the story in that segment was just that. The nutshell of the story: God knows more than you do, listen to the warnings.

If you're trying to claim that 18:86 is a direct instruction by God to Muhammad that the Sun settles in a muddy pound then it is obvious that you've ignored the fact that you've taken a quotation out of a story which makes it devoid of any context.

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #61 - April 19, 2010, 07:35 AM

Metaphors.

It's bullshit. If the Quran says there is a furthest point east/west it is because the author thought the world was flat. You get a clear straight forward statement like this which people dismiss as metaphorical, and then they take Dahw and manipulate it all over the place to prove the Quran says the opposite.

It says they have no cover from the rising Sun probably because being that close to the Sun would make you very hot.

So next time someone claims it is metaphorical ask what its purpose is.

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #62 - April 19, 2010, 09:18 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 19, 2010, 07:11 AM
Hassan can you please explain in more detail why this verse can't be taken as metaphor.

Actually I think it can be taken as a metaphor - that's what I used to do - and that's how I explained a great many difficult passages.

I think Naik's explanation that it was at the "time" of the sun set is the one that simply cannot be defended in any way.

But to say it is a metaphor is imho at least a position one can defend.

In fact this particular verse never really troubled me to be honest.

However, having said that, looking back more closely on it now I have to admit that taking it as a metaphor is rather weak and a bit of a cop-out, as it is with many troublesome verses. (One can get away with saying almost anything is a metaphor)

That's because it's talking about (what it claims to be) a very real historical event of Thul Qarnayn going to a specific place where the sun sets - using the noun the "place" where the sun sets المغرب rather than the verbal noun: setting setting sun غروب and then goes on to say he "found it setting in a muddy spring" - that is very specific and not the language I would expect if it was meant to be a metaphor.

But if you want to take it as a metaphor I won't argue with you.

But if you were to take Naik's position that it means "at the time of sunset" then I would say that's nonsense.
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #63 - April 19, 2010, 09:33 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 19, 2010, 07:22 AM
I've just suddenly realised (I was too lazy to read further back than the quotation) that this is the story of Musa going on a journey. Well, if that is the case, it is story so obviously not everything in it will be taken literally - in the case of the story, it appears as a story thus doesn't have to be literally true thus there is nothing contradictory about 18:86. Stories were used to explain 'truths' and the story in that segment was just that. The nutshell of the story: God knows more than you do, listen to the warnings.

If you're trying to claim that 18:86 is a direct instruction by God to Muhammad that the Sun settles in a muddy pound then it is obvious that you've ignored the fact that you've taken a quotation out of a story which makes it devoid of any context.

Kep up mate, we are not talking about the Musa & Khidr story - we are talking about Thul-Qarnayn (or zulqarnain - see the title of this thread ).

That story is presented as a historical fact.

You will hardly find any Muslims who would claim the story is just one big Metaphor (apart from ppl like The Tailor - but then he claims that the verse about hitting one's wife - doesn't mean "wife" but means "One's personal creativity" - but if it floats his boat - good for him.)

(And btw the story of Musa and Khidr is also presented as something that actually happened too!)
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #64 - April 19, 2010, 09:36 AM

Quote
Actually I think it can be taken as a metaphor - that's what I used to do - and that's how I explained a great many difficult passages.

I think Naik's explanation that it was at the "time" of the sun set is the one that simply cannot be defended in any way.

But to say it is a metaphor is imho at least a position one can defend.

In fact this particular verse never really troubled me to be honest.

However, having said that, looking back more closely on it now I have to admit that taking it as a metaphor is rather weak and a bit of a cop-out, as it is with many troublesome verses. (One can get away with saying almost anything is a metaphor)

Hassan should be banned going East for the next 10 years.,, Even if he goes his mouth should be taped..

You are absolutley right dear Hassan; In fact not only that verse none of the words from any book should trouble any one. The troubles and problems only come when we consider a book is filled with words of Allah.. God..,

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #65 - April 19, 2010, 09:38 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2010, 09:18 AM
Actually I think it can be taken as a metaphor

But a metaphor meaning what? Why would God make inaccurate statements at all, let alone as a metaphor without any meaning which seems to confirm a commonly held inaccurate belief?

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #66 - April 19, 2010, 09:38 AM

Hmmm so In your opinion, this is not a big scientific mistake in Quran. ok so what is the biggest scientific mistake in Quran in your opinion.? Tell me... i want to face the truth. I thought that this is probably the biggest mistake in Quran and i still can't understand this verse. I still feel that the verse can't be taken as a metaphor because Quran speaks clearly that Zulqarnain found the sun setting in murky water. Quran didn't say it appeared to him or he felt this. May be any good scholar of islam helps me understand this. But right now I can't say anything.
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #67 - April 19, 2010, 09:40 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on April 19, 2010, 09:38 AM
But a metaphor meaning what? Why would God make inaccurate statements at all, let alone as a metaphor without any meaning which seems to confirm a commonly held inaccurate belief?

The fact that you quoted a verse in the middle of a parable - I thought it would have been pretty obvious.

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #68 - April 19, 2010, 09:40 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on April 19, 2010, 07:35 AM
Metaphors.

It's bullshit. If the Quran says there is a furthest point east/west it is because the author thought the world was flat. You get a clear straight forward statement like this which people dismiss as metaphorical, and then they take Dahw and manipulate it all over the place to prove the Quran says the opposite.

It says they have no cover from the rising Sun probably because being that close to the Sun would make you very hot.

So next time someone claims it is metaphorical ask what its purpose is.

I agree - and as you say the verse where the sun rose seems to imply they were suffering from the proximity to the sun.
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #69 - April 19, 2010, 09:43 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 19, 2010, 09:38 AM
so what is the biggest scientific mistake in Quran in your opinion.?

The numerous references to a geocentric universe are a bit of a giveaway. For example, all of the following verses link the day/night with the orbit of the Sun.
14:33
21:33
31:29
35:13
36:37-38
36:40
39:5
81:16-18

Now if the author of the Quran didn't believe the orbit of the Sun caused days, why associate it so many times with the day/night? It's like repeating earth, wind, fire, and water; because you believe they are the 4 elements.

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #70 - April 19, 2010, 09:44 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on April 19, 2010, 09:38 AM
But a metaphor meaning what? Why would God make inaccurate statements at all, let alone as a metaphor without any meaning which seems to confirm a commonly held inaccurate belief?

Well like I say I agree with you - it is weak - but one could argue it meant it "looked" like it was setting in a muddy spring. For example something similar to this:
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #71 - April 19, 2010, 09:49 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2010, 09:44 AM
Well like I say I agree with you - it is weak - but one could argue it meant it "looked" like it was setting in a muddy spring.

Then it should say so, because otherwise it is inaccurate. It also doesn't match with the idea that he walked REALLY far, he only needed to walk to the seaside, or the lake down the road!

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #72 - April 19, 2010, 09:54 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 19, 2010, 09:38 AM
Hmmm so In your opinion, this is not a big scientific mistake in Quran. ok so what is the biggest scientific mistake in Quran in your opinion.? Tell me... i want to face the truth. I thought that this is probably the biggest mistake in Quran and i still can't understand this verse. I still feel that the verse can't be taken as a metaphor because Quran speaks clearly that Zulqarnain found the sun setting in murky water. Quran didn't say it appeared to him or he felt this. May be any good scholar of islam helps me understand this. But right now I can't say anything.

I never go around claiming there are scientific mistakes in the Qur'an (even though there do appear to be - but it is not a point I will waste time arguing) - though I do totally reject the claim by Muslims that there are scientific miracles.

But none of that ever had anything to do with why I reject Islam.

I reject Islam simply because the God depicted in it is a cruel, sadistic monster who will keep people alive so he will torture them over and over again. That he would allow husbands to hit his wife. That he would allow slavery. That he would pour such scorn and hatred on those who reject him even though he has provided no proof of his existence.

Basically because the claims are cruel, absurd and unverifiable and yet the punishment is beyond excessive.

That 2,000 years ago this God would constantly intervene in mens lives, causing miracles, and magic jinn and talking birds and parting seas and so on - and then stop when man has advanced enough to properly verify and record all this.

And I could go on... lol
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #73 - April 19, 2010, 09:58 AM

Quote
I never go around claiming there are scientific mistakes in the Qur'an (even though there do appear to be - but it is not a point I will waste time arguing) - though I do totally reject the claim by Muslims that there are scientific miracles.

Any examples on that dear Hassan., Well to find scientific mistakes first we have to find science..

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #74 - April 19, 2010, 10:03 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on April 19, 2010, 09:58 AM
Any examples on that dear Hassan., Well to find scientific mistakes first we have to find science..

Indeed! The Qur'an is quite obviously not a book of science and itself does not claim to be - and I always believed that when I was a Muslim and never took the claims of scientific miracles seriously.

I did make a video refuting the claims that there are scientific miracles - but quite frankly that was only after so many requests.

For me the subject is a non-starter and I'll be damned if I'm going to waste time trying to dig for scientific mistakes in a 1400 year old book of desert myths and legends! To me that is like trying to refute claims that aliens visited the earth on a space ship based on hieroglyphics up the side of a pyramid. It just doesn't need to be done!
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #75 - April 19, 2010, 10:20 AM

no..no dear Hassan., I know what you think about Islam, Quran for that matter any religion/belief.

My point was on those highlighted words of yours ;
Quote
I never go around claiming there are scientific mistakes in the Qur'an (even though there do appear to be - but it is not a point I will waste time arguing)

.. You .. you and may others here some how grew up by self questioning/self analysis or by some one showing us the way. My point was for millions of people who may not have that abilities/contacts on web or with friends, they do think the same way as you said ..(even though there do appear to be) .. that I would like to dissect..
Quote
I did make a video refuting the claims that there are scientific miracles - but quite frankly that was only after so many requests.

Ha! i didn't see that.. drop a link of it here please..

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #76 - April 19, 2010, 10:24 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 19, 2010, 09:38 AM
i still can't understand this verse. I still feel that the verse can't be taken as a metaphor because Quran speaks clearly that Zulqarnain found the sun setting in murky water. Quran didn't say it appeared to him or he felt this. May be any good scholar of islam helps me understand this. But right now I can't say anything.

I wouldn't worry about it Shoaib - tbh there are many other bigger questions that imho are the real source of the problem with Islam - and all religions.

Take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

Here is one of my favourite videos on Youtube - I know it is addressed to Christians but many things also apply to the God of Islam (the same tribal man-made God of Abraham.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvRPbsXBVBo
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #77 - April 19, 2010, 10:26 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on April 19, 2010, 10:20 AM
no..no dear Hassan., I know what you think about Islam, Quran for that matter any religion/belief.

My point was on those highlighted words of yours ; .. You .. you and may others here some how grew up by self questioning/self analysis or by some one showing us the way. My point was for millions of people who may not have that abilities/contacts on web or with friends, they do think the same way as you said ..(even though there do appear to be) .. that I would like to dissect.. Ha! i didn't see that.. drop a link of it here please..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XLg-SRGMNk
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #78 - April 19, 2010, 10:31 AM

And this one is probably also relevant - particularly in light of Naik's vid refuting grammatical errors. (Please note that in my vid I am not making the claim that there ARE grammatical errors, but that" The claim the Qur'an is perfect in style and grammar is not something that can be objectively tested and proven.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAVrmZVgH78
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #79 - April 19, 2010, 10:32 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2010, 09:54 AM
I never go around claiming there are scientific mistakes in the Qur'an (even though there do appear to be - but it is not a point I will waste time arguing) - though I do totally reject the claim by Muslims that there are scientific miracles.

Dear Hassan doesn't it shows that Quran is really the book of God if you can't prove any scientific mistake in Quran. How could an illiterate man write the book without making any scientific mistake. How it is possible. Muslim apologists like zakir naik claim that there is no any scientific mistake in Quran and if knowledgeable people like you keep silent then it does show that their claim is right.
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #80 - April 19, 2010, 10:32 AM

Thanks.. do you have any link of all the videos you made?

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #81 - April 19, 2010, 10:39 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 19, 2010, 10:32 AM
Dear Hassan doesn't it shows that Quran is really the book of God if you can't prove any scientific mistake in Quran. How could an illiterate man write the book without making any scientific mistake. How it is possible. Muslim apologists like zakir naik claim that there is no any scientific mistake in Quran and if knowledgeable people like you keep silent then it does show that their claim is right.

I think what Hassan was trying to say is he doesn't go around making claims of scientific mistakes in the Qur'an, not because he can't find any, but because he doesn't see it as the most important issue at hand. However, I am pretty certain there are many scientific errors in the Qur'an and no scientific miracles.

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #82 - April 19, 2010, 10:43 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 19, 2010, 10:32 AM
Dear Hassan doesn't it shows that Quran is really the book of God if you can't prove any scientific mistake in Quran. How could an illiterate man write the book without making any scientific mistake. How it is possible. Muslim apologists like zakir naik claim that there is no any scientific mistake in Quran and if knowledgeable people like you keep silent then it does show that their claim is right.

I do believe there are errors in the Qur'an that clearly reveal it was the product of a 7th century man and there is certainly nothing in the Qur'an that anyone can prove could not have been known by by Muhammad.

But if you want me to look up stuff and discuss this with you, I'm afraid you will have to forgive me as I say, this subject is a non-starter for me.

I would advise you to do your own research and see what you come up with - and btw it makes no difference to me if you decide Islam is true or false - I am not on a mission to turn anyone away from Islam - so good luck either way, mate
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #83 - April 19, 2010, 10:45 AM

Quote from: Mixu Paatelainen on April 19, 2010, 10:39 AM
I think what Hassan was trying to say is he doesn't go around making claims of scientific mistakes in the Qur'an, not because he can't find any, but because he doesn't see it as the most important issue at hand. However, I am pretty certain there are many scientific errors in the Qur'an and no scientific miracles.

Yes, precisely!
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #84 - April 19, 2010, 10:48 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on April 19, 2010, 10:32 AM
Thanks.. do you have any link of all the videos you made?

My Youtube channel is closed for now because it was causing a problem for someone I need to protect.

You can find most of my vids here though:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CEMBadmins
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #85 - April 19, 2010, 10:55 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2010, 09:44 AM
Well like I say I agree with you - it is weak - but one could argue it meant it "looked" like it was setting in a muddy spring. For example something similar to this:

I really don't think that this is a logical argument if someone says that zulqarnain was deceived by the view of sun setting in a murky water. God must have mentioned it if it was a mere illusion of zulqarnain's eyes. I would like to give you one analogy to explain my point. suppose i'm a professor of biology and I'm fully aware of the difference between dinosaur and lizard. One day my student x comes to me and says that he has seen dinosaur and after little bit research i come to know that he actually saw a lizard not dinosaur. Now in this situation, will you expect me to say to all my students that student x saw dinosaur yesterday. I can't say this since i know dinosaurs don't exist now. If God knows that sun can't set in a murky water why he said zulqarnain found sun setting in the murky water. This sentence clearly shows that According to author of Quran sun does set in murky water. I'm not looking for any scientific mistake in Quran but this verse seems very unscientific.
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #86 - April 19, 2010, 11:02 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 19, 2010, 10:32 AM
Dear Hassan doesn't it shows that Quran is really the book of God if you can't prove any scientific mistake in Quran. How could an illiterate man write the book without making any scientific mistake. How it is possible. Muslim apologists like zakir naik claim that there is no any scientific mistake in Quran and if knowledgeable people like you keep silent then it does show that their claim is right.

1: All of the miracle claims come into the following categories

A: The information was already known and plagiarised.
B: The words have been mistranslated deliberately to be favourable, and any conflicting verses ignored.
C: The claimant lies.

2: There are lots of places where the Quran seems to be echoing false beliefs of the time, people dismiss the simple explanations (Muhammad thought the Sun orbited the Earth) in favour of complex ones (God exists, God spoke to Muhammad, for some reason God told Muhammad the Sun orbits the Milky Way which takes 225 million years).

3: Muhammad certainly made scientific mistakes, but he spoke in a mystical way in which no absolute claim was made for or against anything.
13:2 - Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports

What does this say? To a Muslim it says "There are no supports holding up the heavens as the Jews believed" but to me it says "God DID raise up the heavens" which is factually as inaccurate as you can get, and also "without VISIBLE supports" - meaning that the supports are invisible.

If any objective person were to read the Quran and make notes along the way, once they reached the end and logically grouped their notes the answer would be clear to them. The Quran was written by the mind of a 7th century human who believed the Earth was the centre of the universe, and believed in local superstitions like people being able to perform magic.

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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #87 - April 19, 2010, 11:19 AM

Quote from: shoaib on April 19, 2010, 10:55 AM
this verse seems very unscientific.

I agree!
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #88 - April 19, 2010, 12:42 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2010, 10:43 AM

I would advise you to do your own research and see what you come up with - and btw it makes no difference to me if you decide Islam is true or false - I am not on a mission to turn anyone away from Islam

Asking questions to you is a part of my research. Please don't think that i want you to convince me or convert me if i ask any quesiton to you. I just want to know ex muslim's point of view about miracles of quran
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Re: zulqarnain in Quran
Reply #89 - April 19, 2010, 12:43 PM

Quote from: Mixu Paatelainen on April 19, 2010, 10:39 AM
However, I am pretty certain there are many scientific errors in the Qur'an and no scientific miracles.

so what is the biggest scientific mistake in quran in your point of view.
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