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Theme Changer

 Topic: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?

 (Read 26593 times)
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  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #30 - March 30, 2010, 05:50 PM

    Because Muslim men know that they can control their lusts perfectly well and those laws are more to do with controlling women rather than modesty or male lusts. And controlling women satisfies and puts a  Smiley on many a man's face.

    That's even worse because it implies that the whole thing is just pretence, a lie. This would imply that Hadiths are full of lies and the same would apply to Islamic morals in general.

    You know that almost all Muslims fell that Islam is morally superior. They would never ever acknowledge that this indeed is just a tool of male domination. This leaves us with the only other alternative.
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #31 - March 30, 2010, 08:03 PM

    Great story Manat. It's great that you're here with us cuz I've always wanted to get a better picture of Muslim politics in America. I would really appreciate it if you could talk a bit about how your life as a Muslim in America was (in a different thread and at a time of your choosing).


    I will make another thread for this.  


    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #32 - March 30, 2010, 08:04 PM

    How come Muslim man aren't offended by that?


    Because they're not thinking!  They don't realize that it means that Islam says they can't be man enough to control themselves.  Also, if someone else becomes responsible for your sexuality and its expression, then it's easier for you to act as you want to and then cast the blame on that person b/c it was their responsibility. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #33 - March 31, 2010, 03:35 AM

    You are not understanding the Islamic concept of modesty.  Islamic modesty isn't about fading into the background and being plain and unnoticed. It's sexual modesty, full stop.  In the west, when we say modest, we usually mean someone who is plain, humble, not flashy, etc.  It doesn't mean that in Islam, esp. with regards to the hijab.  While there are, in some schools, rules about flashy hijabs, generally Islam has no problem whatsoever with luxury or women wearing colorful clothes or standing out.

    In fact, the quran, in the passage used to support the obligation of veiling, tells women that they should cover with cloaks to be known -- to be noticed and singled out and set apart as Muslim women. 


    Comes down to whether people genuinely want to be modest (and if they did then I'm sure they'd know how to dress to avoid raising eyebrows), or if they're dressing in that way for religious convictions, which is completely fine, but I wouldn't dress like that under the rhetoric of "modesty" because I'm sure they understand that jaws drop around them.

    What I'm saying is that if a person truly wanted to prove their modesty then they wouldn't be drawing attention to themselves, would they? I understand that Muslims who wear the niqab may do so for sexual modesty as to not reveal skin, but it doesn't change the fact that in a Western society where they're probably living in, the idea of modesty isn't to attract attention to oneself.

    By all means, if they wish to call it remaining pious or devout, or practicing religious or cultural customs (it's hard to tell sometimes), then that is absolutely fine. What I'm saying is that to anyone else in a Western society, the niqab is about as immodest as it gets in terms of trying to reflect attention away from yourself.

    From a logical standpoint, if we're asking people "do you want to be modest by blending in or modest by standing out?" then the answer from a person who wishes to be modest is that they want to blend in or dress conservatively rather than wearing a cloaked billboard for religious devoutness. Whether it is religion or not; that just defeats the purpose of trying to dress modestly in a society where no one dresses like that.
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #34 - March 31, 2010, 01:31 PM

    What I'm saying is that if a person truly wanted to prove their modesty then they wouldn't be drawing attention to themselves, would they? I understand that Muslims who wear the niqab may do so for sexual modesty as to not reveal skin, but it doesn't change the fact that in a Western society where they're probably living in, the idea of modesty isn't to attract attention to oneself.


    Do you really think that the type of Muslims who are open to wearing niqab or supporting it really care that westerners have a concept of modesty that differs from theirs and is not limited to sexual modesty?  In the west, a woman can be called modest if she wears a plain tank top and jeans or something because she is a plain and humble person, but in Islam, she cannot be.  A Muslim is going to define it as his scholar gods have defined it - it is sexual modesty, end of story.  Of course humility and plainness are somewhat praised by some of the scholar gods, but by no means is it praised or encouraged by all of them.  And you are also forgetting that the purpose of covering garments - as laid out in the Quran - is precisely to draw attention to oneself.  Many of the orthodox sunni scholar gods say that this verse refers specifically to jilbab / abaya and / or niqab. You can't push your definition of modesty on to Islam in this case. 

    Quote
    By all means, if they wish to call it remaining pious or devout, or practicing religious or cultural customs (it's hard to tell sometimes), then that is absolutely fine. What I'm saying is that to anyone else in a Western society, the niqab is about as immodest as it gets in terms of trying to reflect attention away from yourself.


    I mean, so what?  What are you saying - that Muslims should redefine their shariah so that it is compatible with non Muslim standards of the west?  Well, actually I agree and I think it will eventually happen, but it's not going to happen soon (I mean more than it has already begun) and it has to come from within the ummah.  And the number of Muslim women in the west who wear niqab is so, so small I really don't think it's something to get worked up about.

    Quote
    From a logical standpoint, if we're asking people "do you want to be modest by blending in or modest by standing out?" then the answer from a person who wishes to be modest is that they want to blend in or dress conservatively rather than wearing a cloaked billboard for religious devoutness. Whether it is religion or not; that just defeats the purpose of trying to dress modestly in a society where no one dresses like that.


    Darling, you are dealing with religion.   Logic has no place here. Quran says to women to cover themselves so that they will be known as Muslimaat.  In other words, to be a billboard.  Khalas. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #35 - April 10, 2010, 11:32 AM

    How many of you girls wore a niqab/burka at some point of your lives when you were muslims? What was your general experience of it? Did you feel it increased your imam and make you feel fulfilled? Or did it just get in the way all the time and make you ridiculously hot? And those of you who have had to wear it in the hotter countries, how difficult was this for you? Any of you guys still experience sexual harassment with it on?

    I just read one members experience of it so wondering whether others experienced anything similar.


    I wore the khimar and jilbab for some time and gradually went to just the khimar, and my experiences with hijab  changed as I did.  When I was mighty religious, the jilbab made me feel protected and somewhat superior to other women.  During this time I was attending  halaqas etc, so I was pleased with it because I nicely fitted in within that cult.  In that respect I can say it increased my iman, and indeed my arrogance.  However, later when I questioned my religious views and Islam in general, I noticed how suffocated the hijab made me feel (noticed the heat a lot more and thoughts of hellfire didn’t really bring peace anymore), and it increasingly became a barrier for me to express myself freely. 

    Now I only wear it when I go to see my parents and I hate every bit of it, I hardly see family now because I can’t stand putting that cloth on my head and promoting that religion.   

    As for sexual harassment... yes, I always experienced that from the cultural Muslim guys.  Just go down to Edgware Road to see how they behave.   

    'The greatest glory of living lies not in never falling but in rising everytime you fall'
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #36 - May 05, 2010, 07:36 AM

    Thanks for sharing girls Smiley
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #37 - May 05, 2010, 08:42 AM

    Ditto. I feel quite lucky that all my family has ever done is make me wear a scarf over my neck. Even that is such a nuisance for me, couldn't imagine going all the way.
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #38 - May 06, 2010, 03:44 AM

    Peru - what does the scarf on the neck mean? I mean, why insist upon it?  Is it a modesty thing about the neck or the collar bone?  I have seen women who wear the dupatta that matches their sk across their chest or around the neck flowing down their back, but I just figured they were non hijabis who were trying to accessorize with the dupatta that came with the outfit. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #39 - May 06, 2010, 09:32 AM

    It's to do with modesty apparently lol Roll Eyes I could never understand how. I used to refuse to wear it as a kid cause it's just a nuisance and constantly falls off. Mum always yelled at me for doing that. Sometimes she makes me wear it across the chest (which makes more sense in modesty terms).

    I suppose they're so used to it, that without it, you seem to appear half-naked in a sense.
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #40 - May 06, 2010, 09:49 AM

    Even when I'm at home my mom is always nagging at me to "put on my dupatta."
    It's really annoying, I'm half-senile and have a bad memory, and I cannot remember to put the damned thing on ever around my neck. To her its about modesty, I suppose, along with the fact that shalwar kameeze look incredibly bare without a dupatta?  Huh?

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #41 - May 06, 2010, 09:53 AM

    I don't wear it at home unless we have people over. I always lose mine as I tend to leave it lying around the house Tongue
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #42 - May 06, 2010, 07:05 PM

    lol all of my shalwar kameeze's duppata's are missing. I end up having to throw a scarf around my throat Tongue

    I actually like dupattas they're pretty and flowy.

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #43 - May 06, 2010, 07:39 PM

    They may be pretty but they really get in the way!!
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #44 - May 10, 2010, 03:38 PM

    When i was in secondary school, a lot of my friends where Muslim and i was the odd ball. (This was bout 10yrs ago lol.) When walking down the street with them they used to get taunts aggressive attitudes even cans thrown at them (not always empty ones) I was shocked by people, all because of a scarf!!!
    One day i decided to wear one just to see how people react to it. It was horrible. Everyone in my area were giving horrible looks, throwing comments then to make it worse I went out with my friends (Muslims) some boys started talking to me in Arabic (obviously I couldn’t understand) so I explained what I was doing and they went crazy. Saying how I was disrespecting the culture etc. They chased me for bout an hour and then got more people out looking for me. I have never been so scared. You would think me trying to understand my friends were a good thing but I got from both directions. Even my friends got it too.
     Huh?

    I'm  in your pipe Kod, and in your lungs.

    I will find youuuuuuuu muahahahaha
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #45 - May 10, 2010, 03:42 PM

    Religious people are crazy wacko Since when were muslims the ones who are allowed to wear a scarf.
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #46 - May 10, 2010, 03:45 PM

    tell me bout it  finmad

    I'm  in your pipe Kod, and in your lungs.

    I will find youuuuuuuu muahahahaha
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #47 - May 10, 2010, 05:20 PM

    That's bizarre...

    Baffla, welcome Smiley We'd love to hear more about you. Would you like to post an intro thread in the Introductions section of the forum?

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #48 - May 10, 2010, 06:19 PM

    When i was in secondary school, a lot of my friends where Muslim and i was the odd ball. (This was bout 10yrs ago lol.) When walking down the street with them they used to get taunts aggressive attitudes even cans thrown at them (not always empty ones) I was shocked by people, all because of a scarf!!!
    One day i decided to wear one just to see how people react to it. It was horrible. Everyone in my area were giving horrible looks, throwing comments then to make it worse I went out with my friends (Muslims) some boys started talking to me in Arabic (obviously I couldn’t understand) so I explained what I was doing and they went crazy. Saying how I was disrespecting the culture etc. They chased me for bout an hour and then got more people out looking for me. I have never been so scared. You would think me trying to understand my friends were a good thing but I got from both directions. Even my friends got it too.
     Huh?

    That's a sad story.  I'm sorry for you.  sad 
    We are all angry with Islam here, so join the club.  I must say I didn't expect non-Muslims to face problems like this.  I thought Muslims just left the non-Muslims alone (and perhaps envied them for having all kinds of freedoms).  I'd love to know more about which city you come from etc.  I live in Leicester, which as you probably know, has a lot of very religious Muslims.  So there are some schools which have like 95% Muslims.  I kind of feel sorry for the non-Muslims in those schools.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #49 - May 11, 2010, 02:52 PM

    That's bizarre...

    Baffla, welcome Smiley We'd love to hear more about you. Would you like to post an intro thread in the Introductions section of the forum?


    wouldn;t know where to begin lol ima have to think bout it  Huh? lol

    I'm  in your pipe Kod, and in your lungs.

    I will find youuuuuuuu muahahahaha
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #50 - May 11, 2010, 03:00 PM

    When i was in secondary school, a lot of my friends where Muslim and i was the odd ball. (This was bout 10yrs ago lol.) When walking down the street with them they used to get taunts aggressive attitudes even cans thrown at them (not always empty ones) I was shocked by people, all because of a scarf!!!
    One day i decided to wear one just to see how people react to it. It was horrible. Everyone in my area were giving horrible looks, throwing comments then to make it worse I went out with my friends (Muslims) some boys started talking to me in Arabic (obviously I couldn’t understand) so I explained what I was doing and they went crazy. Saying how I was disrespecting the culture etc. They chased me for bout an hour and then got more people out looking for me. I have never been so scared. You would think me trying to understand my friends were a good thing but I got from both directions. Even my friends got it too.
     Huh?

    This makes sense when you consider the veil as a cultural identification and male tool for retaining the social isolation of "their" women. An outsider wearing the veil is very dangerous because it suggests that it's just a piece of clothing which doesn't effectively maintain community division - even worse it could allow "outsiders" to socialise  with "their" women without having accepted their values (potentially 'corrupting' them). Those are my initial thoughts on why they might have reacted in such a way.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #51 - May 11, 2010, 03:09 PM

    That's a sad story.  I'm sorry for you.  sad 
    We are all angry with Islam here, so join the club.  I must say I didn't expect non-Muslims to face problems like this.  I thought Muslims just left the non-Muslims alone (and perhaps envied them for having all kinds of freedoms).  I'd love to know more about which city you come from etc.  I live in Leicester, which as you probably know, has a lot of very religious Muslims.  So there are some schools which have like 95% Muslims.  I kind of feel sorry for the non-Muslims in those schools.


    Hi ateapotist,
    I grew up in northwest London then moved to north London. This school was not far from cricklewood, predominant Muslim community there. I’ve been to many schools all over London and also the West Indies. I have a negative attitude on most religions because there are far too many contradictions in them. In my eyes very hypocritical.
    But you shouldn’t feel sorry for them as once upon a time they were the majority talked crap to people all because of ignorance and everyone else was a minority. So really what is coming back is to be expected. If you think about it.
     Thinking hard

    I'm  in your pipe Kod, and in your lungs.

    I will find youuuuuuuu muahahahaha
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #52 - May 11, 2010, 03:11 PM

    I found it baffling when she told me first, because myself, I would have been welcoming.  There would have been no logic to reacting negatively to someone showing an interest in trying to see what it felt like wearing a hijab.

    We are talking potential convert here lol, it makes no sense to chase that kind of curiousity away.

    Still it's a win for "team brains" ie our side Grin this way their behaviour does so much more legwork for us.  cool2

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #53 - May 11, 2010, 03:15 PM

    I found it baffling when she told me first, because myself, I would have been welcoming.  There would have been no logic to reacting negatively to someone showing an interest in trying to see what it felt like wearing a hijab.

    We are talking potential convert here lol, it makes no sense to chase that kind of curiousity away.

    Still it's a win for "team brains" ie our side Grin this way their behaviour does so much more legwork for us.  cool2

    My experience of these communities is that they are more ethnocentric than religious. Hijab becomes little more than a tool for instilling cultural conformity.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #54 - May 11, 2010, 03:20 PM

    My experience of these communities is that they are more ethnocentric than religious. Hijab becomes little more than a tool for instilling cultural conformity.


    Hmmm, Maybe I didn't see it that way because I never felt a part of it all.  It's hard to be ethnocentric when you keep being reminded that you're half English lol.  Tongue

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #55 - May 11, 2010, 03:30 PM

    But you shouldn’t feel sorry for them as once upon a time they were the majority talked crap to people all because of ignorance and everyone else was a minority. So really what is coming back is to be expected. If you think about it.


    That is such a wrong way to think of things. If someone is catching hell from bigots or chauvinists of whatever background, they are innocent individuals, not representatives of their race or religion in order to have perceived historical wrongs made retribution for.

    You could use the same argument to target Muslims for the 'wrongs' that Muslims inflicted on non Muslims throughout history. Individuals are innocent. This is a very dark road to go down.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #56 - May 11, 2010, 03:35 PM

    This makes sense when you consider the veil as a cultural identification and male tool for retaining the social isolation of "their" women. An outsider wearing the veil is very dangerous because it suggests that it's just a piece of clothing which doesn't effectively maintain community division - even worse it could allow "outsiders" to socialise  with "their" women without having accepted their values (potentially 'corrupting' them). Those are my initial thoughts on why they might have reacted in such a way.

    Hi think free,
    That is a fair enough point to make and understandable, just not they way they chose to deal with it. That was wrong. Thinking about it now they are no better than the people who discriminated against them for wearing it. Surely that is hypocritical by any means?

    I'm  in your pipe Kod, and in your lungs.

    I will find youuuuuuuu muahahahaha
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #57 - May 11, 2010, 03:44 PM

    Hi think free,
    That is a fair enough point to make and understandable, just not they way they chose to deal with it. That was wrong. Thinking about it now they are no better than the people who discriminated against them for wearing it. Surely that is hypocritical by any means?


    Of course, it needn't be said that it's completely wrong.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #58 - May 11, 2010, 03:49 PM

    It's not completely wrong. People don't like icons of their culture and identity being appropriated, because then they lose meaning.
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #59 - May 11, 2010, 03:52 PM

    It's not completely wrong. People don't like icons of their culture and identity being appropriated, because then they lose meaning.

     Cheesy

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
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