Inspiring words

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Re: Inspiring words
Reply #120 - December 28, 2009, 09:05 PM

Dude, I had no idea. I was shocked and disgusted. Islam claims to be a peaceful religion. Having ties with Nazism makes it look as peaceful as looking down the barrel of a loaded shotgun. Regular muslims don't know this, I bet people on this board, ex-muslims don't know this. That's why it needs to be out. Cause it's fucking wrong. I have never, ever liked Nazism or Hitler. That muslims comply with this sick ideology and can back it up from religion needs to be confronted.
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Re: Inspiring words
Reply #121 - December 28, 2009, 09:07 PM

Quote from: billy on December 28, 2009, 09:04 PM
Yeah I've just been googling but have not located the reference yet.

Back to the discussion, I think nazism is so time / nation and historical specific that it just clouds more than it illuminates.

Although on an ad hoc basis it might be interesting to mark resonances and links, Islam contains its own weaknesses and faults that condemn it completely.

Having said that, I think that Islamism, political Islam, Ummah nationalism can easily be said to have fascist qualities. And I don't doubt that Mo was tyrannical and could be viewed in the aftermath of the last century as a fascist, if you wanted to apply 20th Century and 21st Century templates of understanding to his life and era.

Sure, it's 20th and 21th century templates. But the man was free to preach for 10-12 years, and then went homicidal. For me that means that even by 7th century Arabian template he was a fascist.
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Re: Inspiring words
Reply #122 - December 28, 2009, 09:13 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on December 28, 2009, 09:07 PM
Sure, it's 20th and 21th century templates. But the man was free to preach for 10-12 years, and then went homicidal. For me that means that even by 7th century Arabian template he was a fascist.

I find the labeling of any far-right, authoritarian or reactionary person/movement as "fascist" as annoying as when right-wingers in America call anything they don't like (like Obama), socialist, Marxist, or communist.

The problem with using terms like that as epithets is that it obscures the actual meanings of the words. Fascism did not exist before the 20th century and was a specific reaction to the political, economic and social conditions of the 1920s and 30s. Fascism may be reactionary and totalitarian, and Mohammed may have been reactionary and totalitarian, but that does not make him a fascist.

fuck you
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Re: Inspiring words
Reply #123 - December 28, 2009, 09:16 PM

@Q

Well made argument. I agree.
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Re: Inspiring words
Reply #124 - December 28, 2009, 09:18 PM

Quote from: IsLame on December 28, 2009, 08:50 PM
No, I was not writing this for muslims, it was an ideological discussion between us.

Certainly little point of hitting muslims with charges of Nazism or paedophilia, however true it may be, as you'll get a knee-jerk reaction, but thats not the point - we were having a discussion amongst us non-believers

oh lol ok.

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Re: Inspiring words
Reply #125 - December 28, 2009, 09:19 PM

Quote
I find the labeling of any far-right, authoritarian or reactionary person/movement as "fascist" as annoying as when right-wingers in America call anything they don't like (like Obama), socialist, Marxist, or communist.

The problem with using terms like that as epithets is that it obscures the actual meanings of the words. Fascism did not exist before the 20th century and was a specific reaction to the political, economic and social conditions of the 1920s and 30s. Fascism may be reactionary and totalitarian, and Mohammed may have been reactionary and totalitarian, but that does not make him a fascist.

Orwell made the exact same observation. He said that the word was losing its meaning because of overuse and misuse. He said that people ware using it to refer to "anything unpleasant".
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Re: Inspiring words
Reply #126 - December 28, 2009, 10:56 PM

"Fascistic" has come to mean at least in the English language more than the mechanisms of the form of governance and nationalist / racist politics that it is rooted in.

+++++

1. a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

2. Oppressive, dictatorial control

+++++

If using it to describe a religious leader who exerted 'oppressive, dictatorial' control in the narrow confines of Mo's character or modus operandi it might be passable. Sometimes looking at the past through the lens of our near language and history can illuminate.

But it is a limited understanding and is only partial. The danger is that it is almost too easy a designation and description, and it has resonances beyond the mere description of being about oppressive, dictatorial control.

It is much easier to examine the various twentieth century religious nationalistic ideologies that emerged influenced by various nationalist movements enunciated by the Muslim Brotherhood, and various Islamist dogmas, ummah-nationalisms, in the light of political 'fascistic' programmes.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Inspiring words
Reply #127 - December 28, 2009, 11:10 PM

Fascistic or fascist? In other words-- fascist-like or actually fascist? I might not have too big an issue with the definition you cited for the former, but if it's for the latter I'd call bullshit on that definition-- whether commonly-accepted in the English language or not, it would be an extreme corruption of the objectively correct meaning of the term. Sorry, but I consider the phrase "Mohammed was a fascist" to be on the same level as saying that "Pope Pius II was a Tory" or "Cromwell was an anarcho-syndicalist". Fascism has a much narrower definition that the one you cite and did not exist until the 20th century-- period.

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Re: Inspiring words
Reply #128 - December 28, 2009, 11:21 PM

See, I did say that describing Mo as fascistic might have a general resonance but ultimately lacks specificity - just as I said that comparing Islam to Nazism is erroneous and inhibiting to our understanding of the religion too. Its like saying 'Jesus was a socialist, he overturned the moneylenders in the temple, and he cared for the poor' -- you kind of know what they mean, but its not exactly true.

Having said that, fascistic does have a coinage beyond specifically pertaining to a fascist political movement in its pure form - language is voracious and ambiguous like that. That is why language has to be used carefully when discussing Islam. I think we all agree on that.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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