Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?

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Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
Reply #30 - February 23, 2015, 08:05 PM

Well rituals involving the direction of mosques and prayer facing towards Mecca (or Jerusalem) have been influential in studying early Islam regarding archeological evidence. (See Tom Holland's documentary)

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Reply #31 - February 23, 2015, 08:06 PM

Quote from: Abu Ali on February 23, 2015, 06:40 PM
Thanks.

Do you think there was a real historical Muhammad who uttered at least some of the Qur'an?

I think the relation between the historical Muhammad and the Qur'an was probably pretty similar to the relation between the historical Jesus and the Gospels: We know what the believers attributed to them in the period over a few decades after their respective deaths, but we cannot know what Muhammad or Jesus actually said. The only real exception is the Doctrina Jacobi, which I believe gets us as close to what the historical Muhammad actually said as we will ever know.

I doubt any of the Qur'an had any close relationship with Muhammad's own proclamations other than indirectly, being interjected by what some community or communities of believers argued about Muhammad in the decades after his death. Probably Muhammad's own theological views differed very little from the generic monotheism already prevalent among the Arabic speakers who had been in contact with Jews and Christians for centuries. Muhammad's distinction was charismatic apocalyptic military leadership, in the wake of Sassanian/Byzantine collapse, not theological. The base Qur'anic material reflects this remarkably ecumenical theology that people already believed independent of Muhammad -- it's all about believers in Allah and the last judgment, a repetition of the same eternal message that Allah always gives his prophets. In this sense, the Qur'an itself argues that it is not a Muhammadan innovation, just the same message that everybody has heard, now delivered in Arabic. This is partly why we get the strange sense in the Qur'an that the 'associators/kuffar' are anachronistic rhetoric being projected onto other monotheists, without the projecting party (composing the verses) being entirely clear on what the actual differences are supposed to be. There is an ever-increasing attempt to articulate religious differences that probably did not exist. I would call it a social division in search of finding a difference.

My present belief is that the Qur'an largely represents a *community's attempt to deal with prophetic absence (the prophet had died)* by appealing to textual authority that the believers cobbled together and expanded out of preexisting non-Muhammadan fragmentary resources in the Arabic language, and increasingly attributed to MHMD himself. Much of the Qur'anic base material was just generally circulating in the monotheistic Arabic milieu, particularly in the Northern/Nabatean regions. After Mohammed died, this material was 'repurposed' over 2-3 decades to suit the theological needs of an evolving community of Arabic speakers which had come into power. At first it was anonymously repurposed with doctrines that everybody in the community believed in --- generic monotheistic messages --- and later it started to include a few (but very few!) of the biographical details that had begun circulating over the decades regarding a specific prophet. One might well ask: What is unique about the Qur'an's message? What, by the Qur'an's own narratives and arguments, had its listeners not already heard from prior messengers other than Muhammad?

This is why the figure of MHMD as a 'unique and different prophet' only slowly appears in the Qur'an, emerging from the cryptic swirl of 'Meccan' texts, to being an anonymous messenger of the eternal message, to being a Biblical prophet-leader, to being MHMD the SEAL of the prophets. It's also why the Qur'an is so profoundly anonymous in character, saying so little about its own 'prophet,' which is remarkably strange for its context.

I see this as remarkably similar to the process by which the Gospels were composed, and emerging from the same fundamental problem: How to deal with the death of the charismatic illiterate religious leader who was supposed to usher in the apocalypse and the eternal Kingdom of God. But then he died. The Qur'an sort of imitates the same process by which disappointed believers rejigger existing texts to argue for a new kind of message, still based on a conservative claim to ancient textual authority, but with increasingly radical additions, re-readings, and alterations, consistent with what the believers KNEW was the true message that the prophet had brought them.
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Reply #32 - February 23, 2015, 08:08 PM

I feel like you've been asked that question so many times on here Zaotar

You should just copy and paste your response.

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
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Reply #33 - February 23, 2015, 08:23 PM

Yeah I like to rethink it though. It's not a simple answer, it's sort of the central Qur'anic puzzle, so I don't mind re-articulating it and thinking it over again in the process.
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Reply #34 - February 23, 2015, 08:37 PM

I mean by rituals not just directions of stuff but the prayers, eid, hajj....

Assume they existed before the koran ..

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #35 - February 23, 2015, 08:42 PM

Thanks, Zaotar, I greatly appreciate you sharing your thoughts - you are a gem on this forum.
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Reply #36 - February 23, 2015, 09:04 PM

^I second that

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
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Reply #37 - February 23, 2015, 10:03 PM

Abu Ali asks
Quote from: Abu Ali on February 23, 2015, 08:31 AM
What would you say is the argument for considering the Quran a somewhat more reliable historical source?

Or would you regard it as equally unreliable ?

and asks again with different words
Quote from: Abu Ali on February 23, 2015, 06:40 PM
Thanks.

Do you think there was a real historical Muhammad who uttered at least some of the Qur'an?

I answered that question 100 times.. off course Like many others Abu Ali doesn't care..

There may have been a guy or many guys who may have uttered few words that are there in Quran.. but that is not a big deal., May be there was a good preacher LIKE ME who may have said.. "you fools., Christ was neither god nor son of god.[ "

So what? that is not a big deal.. And that is noting to do with whole Quran..whole hadith and that Sīrat Rasūl Allāh....

let me answer again for the readers ., There was NO HISTORICAL Muhammad a person as described in Quran., Hadith and in Sīrat Rasūl Allāh

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Reply #38 - February 24, 2015, 12:03 AM

Quote from: Zaotar on February 23, 2015, 08:23 PM
....so I don't mind ~~re-articulating~~ it and thinking it over again in the process.

hello Zaotar.. No..no. no re-articulating., I want the facts of history.... and I like this picture that represents you

Quote
....Yeah I like to rethink it though. It's not a simple answer, it's sort of the central Qur'anic puzzle, ..

Huh! central?? It is central to Qur'anic puzzle?? what puzzle??., what kind of puzzle are you talking about Zaotar? of all so-called religious books that are out there on this earth, Quran is the simplest book to figure out its origins.

Just read Camel in Quran, Hadith, OT and NT .. you will get the clue..

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #39 - February 24, 2015, 04:08 AM

So casually something to Zaotar.
Quote from: yeezevee on February 24, 2015, 12:03 AM
...................Just read Camel in Quran, Hadith, OT and NT .. you will get the clue..

I have no idea why I said that but curiosity is not good thing so I went read about . Camel in hadith. Camel in Quran. and Camel bible OT & NT .. The words of god. So I look in to the bible Camel .. and the story goes like this in that Genesis 12
Quote
Call of Abram

12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

2 “I will make you into a great nation,
   and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
   and you will be a blessing.

3 I will bless those who bless you,
   and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
   will be blessed through you.”

4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Harran.

5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Harran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.

6 Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land.

7 The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring[c] I will give this land.” So he built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

8 From there he went on toward the hills east of Bethel and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he built an altar to the Lord and called on the name of the Lord.

9 Then Abram set out and continued toward the Negev.

Abram in Egypt

10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe.

11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, “I know what a beautiful woman you are.

12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, ‘This is his wife.’ Then they will kill me but will let you live.

13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you.”

14 When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that Sarai was a very beautiful woman.

15 And when Pharaoh’s officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace.

16 He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, male and female servants, and camels.

17 But the Lord inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of Abram’s wife Sarai.

18 So Pharaoh summoned Abram. “What have you done to me?” he said. “Why didn’t you tell me she was your wife?

19 Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife. Take her and go!”

20 Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Hu!?

god says to Abram go to Egypt ., My man goes to Egypt with his beautiful wife . and the hero of bible says "Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life" .. his life is saved ..his wife goes to Pharaoh..and Pharaoh gives my man camels.. sheep.. oxes donkeys..dogs and what not.

Abram is happy with dogs and donkey our Pharaoh is happy with Sarai,.. Great ..

What kind of story is that ? Does it have any moral? any kid will say Abram is NOT prophet material.. Get out of may face.. you religious bums take your stories eat your ox tails.. i don' give a shit..

and what is the plural word for Ox? Oxes? oxen? .. whatever ..

I can learn more from the bacterial flagellum than these stupid cock & bull stories from silly books

well that is one hell of a camel story..

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #40 - February 28, 2015, 12:30 AM

Quote from: Zaotar on February 23, 2015, 06:14 PM
A question that has been occupying me lately is this: Did the Qur'anic Kuffar Exist? At first glance, it seems to be a ridiculous question. The Qur'an is always railing against the unbelievers, hence the unbelievers existed and were seen as a specific group of people distinct from the believers. Patricia Crone has written a long article on who the "mushrikun" likely were, and takes this to be a historical question about a specific historical group of people; she thinks they are monotheists of some sort.

https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_Quranic_Deities.pdf

But that is only true if we accept the picture of the Qur'an as a contemporary text delivered by Mohammed to his faithful. If we think of the Qur'an instead as a theological composite that was largely assembled *in response* to Mohammed's death, in the decades thereafter, then the people called 'unbelievers' and 'associators' are essentially theological constructs who are invoked to make a dogmatic point and help articulate a new religious community.

Self reply -- It's funny, I was just reminded of a powerful contemporary illustration of the point I ventured above, via yesterday's sad news reports of ISIS destroying ancient Assyrian statues.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/world/middleeast/more-assyrian-christians-captured-as-isis-attacks-villages-in-syria.html

That's almost exactly what I was talking about above -- ISIS is currently vigorously attacking 'polytheists' who DON'T ACTUALLY EXIST, and are long dead. They are theological constructs, with ISIS invoking ancient pagans and pseudo-pagans to anachronistically assault as a way of constructing and strengthening ISIS's own *Islamic identity*. So this is the difference between me and Crone on this point, in my view she is essentially reading what are akin to ISIS press releases and taking them seriously about their 'war against the polytheists', while trying to figure out who these *historical* polytheists actually were. Whereas I take the entire category of 'polytheist' to likely be a *theological construct* that is anachronistically written into the Qur'an as part of a religious text -- not a contemporary observation of actual historical people, any more than ISIS's rants against shirk should be taken as being directed at specific contemporary groups of people. That's not to say that contemporary groups don't get hit with the label "polytheist" by ISIS, but the label is generated for theological reasons and only secondarily applied to real-world peoples, as well as long-dead peoples, and falsely-labeled peoples, doesn't matter.

Btw Yeez (replying to your preceding post) it is well-established, on a similar point, that the Torah's references to camels are anachronistic, since camels were first domesticated loooooong after the time when Abraham supposedly lived. These are not contemporary descriptions of contemporary events.
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Reply #41 - March 07, 2015, 10:44 PM

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #42 - March 08, 2015, 12:30 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on March 07, 2015, 10:44 PM

what?? you are sitting on camel and eating popcorn and waiting for others rip silly those religious texts of religions?? QSE i think when you were kid in your kindergarten., you used to be trouble maker and enjoy creating troubles between the kids.. lol..

anyways Zaotar says
Quote from: Zaotar on February 28, 2015, 12:30 AM
....................

Btw Yeez (replying to your preceding post) it is well-established, on a similar point, that the Torah's references to camels are anachronistic, since camels were first domesticated loooooong after the time when Abraham supposedly lived. These are not contemporary descriptions of contemporary events.

As usual Zaotar always adds something special to his post., That word "anachronistic" has special meaning w.r.t religious texts and there are plenty of "anachronistic" words in every religious texts. Let me add a link to a nice article on such "anachronistic words of Torah

the problem with such "anachronistic words" in religious text is, when idiots take them as word of their god and use them to create laws for the society they are living in. It is ok if they were used during those times when they were created to start a religion for whatever was the reason to start a religion may be,. but in 21 st century context they are absolute nonsense and we must fight these laws of religiosity wherever we come across them. Fools at islamic-awareness.org rightly criticizes these "anachronistic words" from OT but when it comes to Quran the same silly words become word of allah/god/voodoo doll ..whatever..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #43 - March 08, 2015, 01:02 AM

I was never a sitting camel.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #44 - March 08, 2015, 01:11 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on March 08, 2015, 01:02 AM
I was never a sitting camel.

well when I sleep type .. I often miss the words Quod .. The missing words there is "On"... "sitting on" . let me correct that.. without that word .. you became Camel.. lol.., Hey I would love to be a camel in a desert that is off limits to venomous human beings..

And for this thread on the story of that unknown figure head "Muhammad" all that Hadith and Sira that creates the story of Muhammad is nothing but weak with very weak fables?

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #45 - March 08, 2015, 01:17 AM

Well I'm sure being a camel in a hospitable environment without humans to kidnap and break me would be lovely, but I still reiterate my comment. I was never a camel or sitting on a camel...or a sitting camel.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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