Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?

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- Zaephon
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #30 - April 21, 2009, 09:36 AM

Quote from: BMZ
No, my Jewish friends told me.

Well, is this supposed to be a reply? Again, how do you know that God spoke to Moses and Mohammad, but did not speak to Jesus? You are basically denying the prophethood of Jesus, which is against the Quran.

Quote from: BMZ
Are you taking part in the discussion on "The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind"?

Not really. I'm waiting you to reply to the point raised by Osmanthus.

Quote from: BMZ
How old are you Zaephon?

Why are you asking this question? I am 21.

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- Baal
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #31 - April 21, 2009, 01:30 PM

Quote from: Variable on April 20, 2009, 05:04 PM
Quote from: Baal on April 20, 2009, 03:48 PM
Quote from: quran.org
especially when it comes to the precise statement of laws. Since the Quran is a Statute Book, it was crucial that such laws must be clearly stated. God chose Arabic for His Final Testament because of the obvious reason that it is the most suitable language for that purpose. Arabic is unique in its efficiency and accuracy.[/size][/size] For example, the word "they" in English does not tell you if "they" are males or females. In Arabic there is a "they" for the males, "HUM," and a "they" for the females, "HUNNA." There is even a "they" for two males, "HUMAA," and a "they" for two females, "HAATAAN." This feature does not exist in any other language in the world.

Wrong. the writer is a liar. Other languages do possess this feature. French, Spanish, Italian, (japanese? to start.

What is it in Spanish?

Sry, French, not Spanish,

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #32 - April 21, 2009, 03:12 PM

Thus the suspicions that Islam was hijacked at the very beginning, and that one billion Muslims are praying to a god that their prophet Mohammed wanted to destroy.
After all, Jesus' words were manipulated by the Catholic Church (and still are manipulated by countless Christian priests) to justify all sorts of political schemes. The same fate may have happened to the founder of Islam, who lived in a much more primitive society (i.e., easier to manipulate) than Rome. [/quote]

I don't know how true it is, but it seems like an interesting site to start researching the subject from.
[/quote]

there must be some interesting history, that is long buried.

Calling Dan Brown...calling Dan Brown,
I have a great idea for a movie

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #33 - April 21, 2009, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Homer on April 21, 2009, 03:12 PM

Calling Dan Brown...calling Dan Brown,
I have a great idea for a movie

Don't call Dan Brown, or if you do ask him if he wants a fatwa for his death like Salman Rushdie first, weaving conspiracy theories about Islam & Christianity are very different!

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #34 - April 21, 2009, 04:52 PM

Quote from: Rashna on April 21, 2009, 03:28 PM
Quote from: Homer on April 21, 2009, 03:12 PM

Calling Dan Brown...calling Dan Brown,
I have a great idea for a movie

Don't call Dan Brown, or if you do ask him if he wants a fatwa for his death like Salman Rushdie first, weaving conspiracy theories about Islam & Christianity are very different!

Naa, I can see it now, Starring Jamie Farr as Uthman.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #35 - April 21, 2009, 04:55 PM

Quote from: Homer on April 21, 2009, 04:52 PM
Naa, I can see it now, Starring Jamie Farr as Uthman.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
- Pazuzu
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #36 - April 21, 2009, 05:25 PM

Quote from: Homer on April 20, 2009, 10:18 PM
If you understand the meaning of what you are translating you can translate anything into anything.

Not strictly true. Or at least, you can't get it done without a lot of pfaffing around. Some words mean different things in different languages, and carry different connotations. As a simple example, Shaheed comes from the root word which means martyr, but also witness, and to testify (hence the Shahadah). You can't really convey that in English with a simple word or sentence without going into specifics.

Try reading Mouse or Rat? by Umberto Eco, wherein he studies translation as a form of negotiation.

"At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
- Tlaloc
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #37 - April 21, 2009, 05:40 PM

Quote from: Pazuzu on April 21, 2009, 05:25 PM
Quote from: Homer on April 20, 2009, 10:18 PM
If you understand the meaning of what you are translating you can translate anything into anything.

Not strictly true. Or at least, you can't get it done without a lot of pfaffing around. Some words mean different things in different languages, and carry different connotations. As a simple example, Shaheed comes from the root word which means martyr, but also witness, and to testify (hence the Shahadah). You can't really convey that in English with a simple word or sentence without going into specifics.

But translations do not need to avoid going into specifics.

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #38 - April 21, 2009, 05:41 PM

By the way... technically "martyr" DOES mean witness as well

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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #39 - April 21, 2009, 06:15 PM

You're right, but it was the first word that sprang into my head simply because I've never associated it with witness in English, even though I know its Greek origins lie in the word for witness.

"At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #40 - April 21, 2009, 06:23 PM

Quote from: Pazuzu on April 21, 2009, 05:25 PM
Quote from: Homer on April 20, 2009, 10:18 PM
If you understand the meaning of what you are translating you can translate anything into anything.

Not strictly true. Or at least, you can't get it done without a lot of pfaffing around. Some words mean different things in different languages, and carry different connotations. As a simple example, Shaheed comes from the root word which means martyr, but also witness, and to testify (hence the Shahadah). You can't really convey that in English with a simple word or sentence without going into specifics.

Try reading Mouse or Rat? by Umberto Eco, wherein he studies translation as a form of negotiation.

Thanks for the tip, I'll look that up, it has high reviews on Amazon.
I think we'll still agree. What I mean more is that if you understand the meaning of what you are translating and how to express that meaning the language you are translating too, then you can translate anything to anything, by no means do I mean you can translate literal words to literal words no problem.

An example (simple example) I can think of is in Bhs Indonesian the word for 'speed bump' is polisi tidur. Literally polisi tidur would mean 'police man sleeping'. If an indonesian person wrote me a letter telling me about driving, and I directly translated the words into english, without knowing the actual meaning I may get something like "I almost popped my tire running over that sleeping police officer"....
but if I know that in the context of the language and how its used 'polisi tidur' referes to speed bumps, I will translate it to 'speed bump'.

(It took me 2 months of driving around, wondering why there are all these signs telling me to be careful of sleeping police men, to learn that one )

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
- Goldie
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #41 - April 21, 2009, 11:02 PM

Quote from: Rashna
Great link Goldie!

Its not that great, lol. Its obvious to me that it was written by a non-muslim with limited research of Islam. I only posted it as a link which describes the society and context in which the Qur'an was revealed.

You made some good points in the rest of your post Rashna, thank you for your thoughts.
- Baal
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #42 - April 22, 2009, 02:50 AM

Quote from: Homer on April 20, 2009, 10:18 PM
What I could never understand is the issue with translation.

I've been told so many times that it can only be understood in arabic. If something sounds wrong, strange, barbaric or whatever, its because I dont understand arabic. Even all prayers and such need to be done in arabic, as translation will destroy the meaning.

Of the 6200+ verses, only 1 verse I found sounded better in Arabic than its English translation. By better, I mean more spiritual and enlightened. What happened then is that each translation became also its own 'tafseer - interpretation' instead of being just a translation. Arabic however is great for the poetry, just even the original testaments came from very poetry, even the barbaric bits.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- Rashna
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #43 - April 22, 2009, 04:02 AM

Quote from: BMZ on April 21, 2009, 09:06 AM
Quote from: Zaephon on April 21, 2009, 07:38 AM
Quote from: BMZ
Moses was a Hebrew, so God had to talk to him in Hebrew. Jesus spoke mainly Aramaic but God did not speak to him at all.

How do you know? Did Allah explain all this to you?

No, my Jewish friends told me.

Well, Jews also say that Muhammad was an imposter & God didn't speak to him either, you can't accept their statement regarding one, & reject their statement regarding the other.

Jews were the one who had this YHWH God with His list of Prophets, they're the one to decide whom they'll accept or reject as their new Prophet, since they rejected some claimants-the decent thing for those claimants would have been to quit claiming that they're Prophets in the Jewish tradition, & start their theology from scratch, without liberally plagiarizing from Jewish Scriptures.

Quote from: Goldie on April 21, 2009, 11:02 PM
You made some good points in the rest of your post Rashna, thank you for your thoughts.

you're welcome!

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #44 - April 22, 2009, 05:59 AM

Quote from: Homer on April 21, 2009, 06:23 PM
Quote from: Pazuzu on April 21, 2009, 05:25 PM
Quote from: Homer on April 20, 2009, 10:18 PM
If you understand the meaning of what you are translating you can translate anything into anything.

Not strictly true. Or at least, you can't get it done without a lot of pfaffing around. Some words mean different things in different languages, and carry different connotations. As a simple example, Shaheed comes from the root word which means martyr, but also witness, and to testify (hence the Shahadah). You can't really convey that in English with a simple word or sentence without going into specifics.

Try reading Mouse or Rat? by Umberto Eco, wherein he studies translation as a form of negotiation.

Thanks for the tip, I'll look that up, it has high reviews on Amazon.
I think we'll still agree. What I mean more is that if you understand the meaning of what you are translating and how to express that meaning the language you are translating too, then you can translate anything to anything, by no means do I mean you can translate literal words to literal words no problem.

An example (simple example) I can think of is in Bhs Indonesian the word for 'speed bump' is polisi tidur. Literally polisi tidur would mean 'police man sleeping'. If an indonesian person wrote me a letter telling me about driving, and I directly translated the words into english, without knowing the actual meaning I may get something like "I almost popped my tire running over that sleeping police officer"....
but if I know that in the context of the language and how its used 'polisi tidur' referes to speed bumps, I will translate it to 'speed bump'.

(It took me 2 months of driving around, wondering why there are all these signs telling me to be careful of sleeping police men, to learn that one )

This is a very good example. Any translator who is any good at the job will not translate things literally. It simply doesn't work for most languages most of the time (or at least a lot of the time). You need to have a feel for both languages, otherwise you get things like the legendary "Japglish" instruction manuals.

A good translator can translate any text from any language with which he or she is thoroughly familiar into any other language with which he or she is thoroughly familiar. To claim that the Quran is the only text in existence for which this is not possible is plainly stupid or dishonest, depending on your motivations and intelligence. It is exactly analogous to the antiquated Christian claim (still supported by some) that the Bible must be read in Latin. It's nothing but an attempt to control discussion and obfuscate the relevant topics.

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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #45 - April 22, 2009, 10:28 PM

Actually, at one stage speed bumps WERE known as sleeping policemen in English!

And Baal - which verse in the Qur'an do you prefer in the Arabic?

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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #46 - April 23, 2009, 11:45 PM

Quote from: Pazuzu on April 22, 2009, 10:28 PM
Actually, at one stage speed bumps WERE known as sleeping policemen in English!

And Baal - which verse in the Qur'an do you prefer in the Arabic?

Fair enough, I did not know that.
However, do you think that would matter?
What I mean, is that even on a small scale, using homonyms, you would see the same thing. However, if you know the meaning there is no reason you would not be able to reproduce that meaning.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #47 - April 24, 2009, 09:27 PM

Quote from: Rashna on April 20, 2009, 06:20 AM

AlmostAisha, this is especially for you, LOL cats in the Quran, translating it into LOLspeak!

Enjoy!

I cannot believe someone actually did this thanks for the link Rashna, I shall definitely get some laughs out of it once I'm done with exams.

Quote from: Rashna on April 20, 2009, 06:20 AM

If this is the best Allah can manage, in the clearest tongue, He seriously needs some language classes, & needs to get over his pride about His surah writing skills!

This is one of the things that made me finally see that Islam could not be from any god. After going through the endless mental turmoil of having a group tell you that a verse means this and another insist that it means the complete opposite, I didn't care anymore who was right... the point was that it was impossible for me to know for sure, and this book was far from clear.

I mean think about it, so many books have been written that are perfectly clear. Take the constitution of any country, do people argue over the correct "interpretation" of every law? Why can't Allah be at least as clear as humans when writing a book that is going to decide the eternal fate of humanity?

"when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
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Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
Reply #48 - April 25, 2009, 09:31 PM

''For example, the word "they" in English does not tell you if "they" are males or females. In Arabic there is a "they" for the males, "HUM," and a "they" for the females, "HUNNA." There is even a "they" for two males, "HUMAA," and a "they" for two females, "HAATAAN." This feature does not exist in any other language in the world.''

Spanish : They (males ) Ellos , They (females ) ellas

Those guys here = esos Those women here = esas

those guys (back then or over there ) = aquellos those woman ( Back then or over there ) = aquellas

these guys = estos these women = estas

Irish Gaelic also has this feature and makes it even easier . there is a number that is only used when counting people so you wouldnt have to put a noun after it to explain what it is you are refering to

this guy is obviously fluent in Bolox

According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
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