Jahiliyah

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Jahiliyah
OP - April 05, 2009, 01:23 PM

This is a topic that I posted on Ummah.com. I have not had any responses yet, but am waiting to see what I get. Any thoughts?

The most important shrine in Mecca, and possibly in the whole of Arabia was the Ka'aba, which was dedicated to the three daughters of the supreme deity, Al-Llah. By the beginning of the seventh century Al-Llah had become more important than ever in the religious lives of many Arabs. When times were easy, Arabs turned to Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Manat, but in times of crisis, instinctively turned to Al-Llah, who had the power to help them.¹

Every year, Arabs from all over the peninsula would attend the hajj pilgrimage, which would start at the Ka'aba and then proceed to various shrines outside Mecca. Aspects of the hajj included performing the tawwaf, which consisted of seven circumambulations of the Ka'aba, hurl pebbles at the three sacred pillars of Mina and offer an animal sacrifice.

Other examples of pre Islamic Arabian spirtuality included a black stone which was embedded in the eastern corner of the Ka'aba and the sacred spring of Zamzam. The pre-Islamic pagans of Arabia also believed in spirits called Djinns.

The Islamic stories of Adam and Ibrahim are based around Mecca and the Ka'aba. When Adam disobeyed Allah and was sent to Earth, he decended at a mountain peak outside Mecca. The Ka'aba was first built by Adam and rebuilt by Ibrahim and Ismail. The Zamzam well was found when God ordered Ibrahim to leave Hajar and Ismail in the desert. Hajar was desperately seeking water for Ismail and could not find any. She ran seven times between Safa and Marwah when Ismail scraped the land with his feet when suddenly water sprang out, the Zamzam spring.

I have two questions regarding these points I have made.

Firstly, if these stories about Adam and Ibrahim are true, how come there is not even a single mention of Mecca, the Ka'aba and the Zamzam well in any of the other revealed texts, i.e. the Bible and the Torah. How come there is no mention of Djinns in these texts either? I know that you may say that these texts have been changed throughout time, but if these stories were true, and the texts were revealed by god, surely there would at least be some trace left in the other revealed texts.

Secondly, were Pagan Arab beliefs, rituals and myths incorporated into Islam. The Ka'aba, the Hajj, tawaf, hurling stones at the three pillars of Mina, and the belief in Djinns were all aspects of Pagan spirituality, yet not mentioned in the other Abrahamic faiths. Was Islam just a melting pot of Judaism, Christianity, and Arab Paganism?

1. Karen Armstrong, 'Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet' (Phoenix Press, London 2001) p69

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #1 - April 05, 2009, 01:42 PM

Quote from: aliadiere on April 05, 2009, 01:23 PM
This is a topic that I posted on Ummah.com. I have not had any responses yet, but am waiting to see what I get. Any thoughts?

Firstly, if these stories about Adam and Ibrahim are true, how come there is not even a single mention of Mecca, the Ka'aba and the Zamzam well in any of the other revealed texts, i.e. the Bible and the Torah. How come there is no mention of Djinns in these texts either? I know that you may say that these texts have been changed throughout time, but if these stories were true, and the texts were revealed by god, surely there would at least be some trace left in the other revealed texts?

If these texts were indeed revealed by God, there'd definitely be some trace. Even if these texts weren't revealed by God but entirely based on Pre Islamic Jewish-Christian beliefs, there'd be some trace. The fact that there's zilch trace in the previous texts should make most people, at least the skeptics realise that the angle of Abraham leaving Hajar & her son in Saudi is either Muhammad's fabrication or some sort of belief that had sprung up amongst the Meccan pagans & which Muhammad conveniently adopted as it suited his ends.

Quote from: aliadiere on April 05, 2009, 01:23 PM
This is a topic that I posted on Ummah.com. I have not had any responses yet, but am waiting to see what I get. Any thoughts?

Secondly, were Pagan Arab beliefs, rituals and myths incorporated into Islam. The Ka'aba, the Hajj, tawaf, hurling stones at the three pillars of Mina, and the belief in Djinns were all aspects of Pagan spirituality, yet not mentioned in the other Abrahamic faiths. Was Islam just a melting pot of Judaism, Christianity, and Arab Paganism?

Of course it was, every religion is based on some or the other previous faith, polytheisms readily accept this fact, monotheisms for all their grandoise claims of having been "revealed" by the One True God to some Prophets also develop in this way. Even Judaism was based on previous faiths-along with Yahweh, Jews worshipped a goddess Asherah.

The Meccan pagans somehow also believed that the kaaba was built by Adam, rebuilt by Ibrahim. Probably they got this idea after they came in contact with Jews, that's what polytheisms do. Buddha founded a separate faith but the polytheistic Hindus made him one of their their gods.Tha Meccan pagans, along with their 360 idols had also started incorporating elements from Judaism & Christianity, which they'd come in contact with.

Muhammad, somehow detested idolatry & sought to wean his people away from it. He also admired the Jewish\Christian faiths, which he & the Arab pagans found superior to their beliefs & they suffered from a religious inferiority complex. However, the kaaba was way too important as a means of income from religious tourism for Muhammad to ignore, & having grown up in a culture believing in djinns, Muhammad believed in those too. The pagans' idea that the kaaba was constructed by Adam\Ibrahim was music to Mo's ears, now he could bring them their Revelation from the One God, which he'd claim is the final & complete Revelation & he could incorporate elements familiar to them like the Kaaba & djinns, thus ensuring that the Arabs were comfortable with the new beliefs.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #2 - April 05, 2009, 01:52 PM

Quote from: Rashna on April 05, 2009, 01:42 PM
The Meccan pagans somehow also believed that the kaaba was built by Adam, rebuilt by Ibrahim. Probably they got this idea after they came in contact with Jews, that's what polytheisms do. Buddha founded a separate faith but the polytheistic Hindus made him one of their their gods.Tha Meccan pagans, along with their 360 idols had also started incorporating elements from Judaism & Christianity, which they'd come in contact with.

Muhammad, somehow detested idolatry & sought to wean his people away from it. He also admired the Jewish\Christian faiths, which he & the Arab pagans found superior to their beliefs & they suffered from a religious inferiority complex. However, the kaaba was way too important as a means of income from religious tourism for Muhammad to ignore, & having grown up in a culture believing in djinns, Muhammad believed in those too. The pagans' idea that the kaaba was constructed by Adam\Ibrahim was music to Mo's ears, now he could bring them their Revelation from the One God, which he'd claim is the final & complete Revelation & he could incorporate elements familiar to them like the Kaaba & djinns, thus ensuring that the Arabs were comfortable with the new beliefs.

Hit the nail on the head there! I could not be bothered to write all that because it would take too much time, and people get bored reading long posts and i wanted responses! Anyway, I did not know that the pagan Arabs also believed that Adam and Ibrahim were from Mecca and built the Ka'aba. Have you got any references?

I have to disagree with you when you say that Muhammad included pagan elements in Islam to ensure that the Arabs were comfortable with the new beliefs. I think he most likely believed in these pagan beliefs. He did used to perform Hajj and tawaff before he claimed to receive revelations and after all, he was a product of 6th/7th century Arabia, so he was unlikely to completely shed his previous beliefs for new beliefs.

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #3 - April 05, 2009, 02:08 PM

Quote from: aliadiere on April 05, 2009, 01:52 PM
Anyway, I did not know that the pagan Arabs also believed that Adam and Ibrahim were from Mecca and built the Ka'aba. Have you got any references?

Karen Armstrong says so in her book "A History of God" that the local Jews\Arabs had added their own legends to the Adam\Ibrahim story.

Quote from: aliadiere on April 05, 2009, 01:52 PM
I have to disagree with you when you say that Muhammad included pagan elements in Islam to ensure that the Arabs were comfortable with the new beliefs. I think he most likely believed in these pagan beliefs. He did used to perform Hajj and tawaff before he claimed to receive revelations and after all, he was a product of 6th/7th century Arabia, so he was unlikely to completely shed his previous beliefs for new beliefs.

I guess you're right. Muhammad certainly didn't show any respect to pagan beliefs when he smashed their idols chanting, "Truth has come, falsehood vanished..." & warned people to stay indoors or be so its unlikely that he'd include elements he disbelieved in to make the pagans comfortable. Most likely he believed in those stories too, its hard to completely let go of one's long held beliefs-just like many ex Muslims here abstain from pork.

I do think that Muhammad had hoped that by including Jewish beliefs he'd manage to convince the Jews to accept him as their Messiah, sent to update their faiths. The two Christians mentioned in Islamic sources-Waraqa ibn Nawfal & Ubaydallah ibn Jahsh had after all accepted him as the next Abrahamic Prophet- & the rejection by Jews hit Muhammad hard. Jews rejected Muhammad like they'd supposedly rejected Jesus half a millennia earlier, only this time the self declared Messiah didn't die uttering "Forgive them Daddy.." he demanded the Jews accept him or pay jizya taxes & annihilated an entire tribe when the Jews got pissed with his demands & broke pacts with him.

However, other than in the recent past, the religion of Self Declared Messiah Part 2 proved on the whole more tolerant to Jews than the religion of Self Declared Messiah Part 1-who persecuted Jews for deicide. Recent decades have made the religion of Self Declared Messiah Part 1 more tolerant to Jews & religion of Self Declared Messiah Part 2 now detest Jews.

Poor Jews! They built a new theology, incorporated the idea of a "messiah" in it, two guys claimed that privilege & founded two of the biggest faiths which liberally plagiarized from Jewish theology-& both these faiths would end up persecuting Jews for theological reasons!

Poor Jews! They have a Messiah in their theology,

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #4 - April 05, 2009, 02:17 PM

Quote from: Rashna on April 05, 2009, 02:08 PM
Quote from: aliadiere on April 05, 2009, 01:52 PM
Anyway, I did not know that the pagan Arabs also believed that Adam and Ibrahim were from Mecca and built the Ka'aba. Have you got any references?

Karen Armstrong says so in her book "A History of God" that the local Jews\Arabs had added their own legends to the Adam\Ibrahim story.

Quote from: aliadiere on April 05, 2009, 01:52 PM
I have to disagree with you when you say that Muhammad included pagan elements in Islam to ensure that the Arabs were comfortable with the new beliefs. I think he most likely believed in these pagan beliefs. He did used to perform Hajj and tawaff before he claimed to receive revelations and after all, he was a product of 6th/7th century Arabia, so he was unlikely to completely shed his previous beliefs for new beliefs.

I guess you're right. Muhammad certainly didn't show any respect to pagan beliefs when he smashed their idols chanting, "Truth has come, falsehood vanished..." & warned people to stay indoors or be so its unlikely that he'd include elements he disbelieved in to make the pagans comfortable. Most likely he believed in those stories too, its hard to completely let go of one's long held beliefs-just like many ex Muslims here abstain from pork.

I do think that Muhammad had hoped that by including Jewish beliefs he'd manage to convince the Jews to accept him as their Messiah, sent to update their faiths. The two Christians mentioned in Islamic sources-Waraqa ibn Nawfal & Ubaydallah ibn Jahsh had after all accepted him as the next Abrahamic Prophet- & the rejection by Jews hit Muhammad hard. Jews rejected Muhammad like they'd supposedly rejected Jesus half a millennia earlier, only this time the self declared Messiah didn't die uttering "Forgive them Daddy.." he demanded the Jews accept him or pay jizya taxes & annihilated an entire tribe when the Jews got pissed with his demands & broke pacts with him.

However, other than in the recent past, the religion of Self Declared Messiah Part 2 proved on the whole more tolerant to Jews than the religion of Self Declared Messiah Part 1-who persecuted Jews for deicide. Recent decades have made the religion of Self Declared Messiah Part 1 more tolerant to Jews & religion of Self Declared Messiah Part 2 now detest Jews.

Poor Jews! They built a new theology, incorporated the idea of a "messiah" in it, two guys claimed that privilege & founded two of the biggest faiths which liberally plagiarized from Jewish theology-& both these faiths would end up persecuting Jews for theological reasons!

Poor Jews! They have a Messiah in their theology,

Are you sure you are 14?!!!

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #5 - April 05, 2009, 03:59 PM

Quote from: aliadiere on April 05, 2009, 01:52 PM
Quote from: Rashna on April 05, 2009, 01:42 PM
The Meccan pagans somehow also believed that the kaaba was built by Adam, rebuilt by Ibrahim. Probably they got this idea after they came in contact with Jews, that's what polytheisms do. Buddha founded a separate faith but the polytheistic Hindus made him one of their their gods.Tha Meccan pagans, along with their 360 idols had also started incorporating elements from Judaism & Christianity, which they'd come in contact with.

Muhammad, somehow detested idolatry & sought to wean his people away from it. He also admired the Jewish\Christian faiths, which he & the Arab pagans found superior to their beliefs & they suffered from a religious inferiority complex. However, the kaaba was way too important as a means of income from religious tourism for Muhammad to ignore, & having grown up in a culture believing in djinns, Muhammad believed in those too. The pagans' idea that the kaaba was constructed by Adam\Ibrahim was music to Mo's ears, now he could bring them their Revelation from the One God, which he'd claim is the final & complete Revelation & he could incorporate elements familiar to them like the Kaaba & djinns, thus ensuring that the Arabs were comfortable with the new beliefs.

Hit the nail on the head there! I could not be bothered to write all that because it would take too much time, and people get bored reading long posts and i wanted responses! Anyway, I did not know that the pagan Arabs also believed that Adam and Ibrahim were from Mecca and built the Ka'aba. Have you got any references?

I have to disagree with you when you say that Muhammad included pagan elements in Islam to ensure that the Arabs were comfortable with the new beliefs. I think he most likely believed in these pagan beliefs. He did used to perform Hajj and tawaff before he claimed to receive revelations and after all, he was a product of 6th/7th century Arabia, so he was unlikely to completely shed his previous beliefs for new beliefs.

Agreed. Muhammad's grand-father and main source of parentage, was a hanafi. The hanafis believed in Abraham, in hajj (Tawaf 7 times), banning alcholo, ablution, prostrating while praying, praying 3 times a day, cutting the hands of thieves, prohibiting pork, and were against the death of newborn girls. They also had fasting month. I looked once at a smaller book listing all the rules and laws introduced through sharia, there was nothing new, there was nothing new being introduced that the jahiliya did not already have.

The only thing new i found, was that the share of a gang leader used to be 25%, muhammad made it 20% (Khums) and that 20% had to be divided a certain way. Otherwise nothing new was added by islam. Muhammad could have not even existed, and the Islamic sharia would have been the same. A written codex of the current existing traditions of the time.

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #6 - April 05, 2009, 04:35 PM

So Islam was revealed to the Prophet Mohammed by idolotrous pagans, and not by Allah.

And he repaid them by slaughtering them.

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #7 - April 05, 2009, 04:51 PM

I'm very disappointed by the responses I have had on Ummah.com! Just two extremely half assed replies!

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #8 - April 05, 2009, 05:46 PM

Please post here because I can no longer get on there, on account of getting banned for turning apostate, making a thread about it, asking questions about Muhammad sanctioning the slaughter of apostates, and for referring to allah as 'it'.

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #9 - April 06, 2009, 12:35 AM

Quote from: aliadiere on April 05, 2009, 02:17 PM
Are you sure you are 14?!!!

Yep! Be sure to meet me when you visit India.

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #10 - April 06, 2009, 02:03 PM

Here are the responses I have so far.

Quote
as salamu alaikum,

how many instances in the quran does allah swt mention the house of god as "kaba" ?

Then certainly we can't expect the bible or torah to mention it by name specifically either. but we have instances where it is mentioned (without directly stating it's name) such as:

Quote
Psalm 138

1I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.

2I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Quote
No. The rituals of Islam are ordained by Allah ta'ala. That the pagans might have been doing similar things is irrelevant to us. We believe in whatever comes in the Qur'an and Sunnah as coming from Him.

Quote
Ibrahim عليه السلام started the Tawaaf and other rituals. Then they were passed down to his progeny but the mushrikeen changed them according to their polytheistic beliefs

Quote
http://www.answering-christianity.com/paran.htm

(A very weak article which didn't answer my questions. It only talked about the HYPOTHESIS that the Desert of Paran where Ibrahim left Hajar and Ismail is Mecca, and displayed it as FACT. Everything else in the article is irrelevant to the points I was making).

Quote
Because Genesis, exodus etc is the history of the progeny of Isaac whereas the muslims were the descendants of Ishmael. Other then the mention of Ishmael and the prophecie regarding his progeny, there is no specific mention of him after he and his mother left their father. The descendants of Ishmael were more remote and indoctrinated pagan beliefs into their faith as they absorbed other races like the descendants of the zoroastrians

And the Best of all.......................

Quote
Allah knows best.

I can't believe only one person attempted to provide evidence (even though it was quite poor, but fair play to him), but I also cannot believe the last reply I got, "allah knows best"! That just shows a willingness to believe anything without any evidence!

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #11 - April 06, 2009, 07:13 PM

Quote from: Rashna on April 06, 2009, 12:35 AM
Quote from: aliadiere on April 05, 2009, 02:17 PM
Are you sure you are 14?!!!

Yep! Be sure to meet me when you visit India.

I don't believe it. Your writing is too knowledgeable and erudite to come from a 14yo. Maybe a 24yo.
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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #12 - April 06, 2009, 10:53 PM

Quote from: aliadiere on April 06, 2009, 02:03 PM
Here are the responses I have so far.

Quote
as salamu alaikum,

how many instances in the quran does allah swt mention the house of god as "kaba" ?

Then certainly we can't expect the bible or torah to mention it by name specifically either. but we have instances where it is mentioned (without directly stating it's name) such as:

Quote
Psalm 138

1I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.

2I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Why is that about the Kaba? Wouldn't it make more sense if it were the Temple of Solomon that David was referring to there?

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #13 - April 06, 2009, 10:59 PM

Quote from: SmartAssmodeus on April 06, 2009, 07:13 PM
I don't believe it. Your writing is too knowledgeable and erudite to come from a 14yo. Maybe a 24yo.

I am erudite, on the subject of Islam-I've spent the last year & a half extensively researching it. Many of my friends are as erudite, on stuff they're interested it-even if that stuff is boys! On a serious note, many are erudite on various subjects.Maybe you've met many airheads my age? You can visit me too if\when you come to India.

Quote from: aliadiere on April 06, 2009, 02:03 PM
I can't believe only one person attempted to provide evidence (even though it was quite poor, but fair play to him), but I also cannot believe the last reply I got, "allah knows best"! That just shows a willingness to believe anything without any evidence!

People, not just Muslims, prefer to protect their beliefs from corrosion-& this is indeed an issue which an lead to grave doubts about whether Muslims are really Abrahim's descendants & for a literalist faith like Islam-it could have catastrophic consequences.

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #14 - April 07, 2009, 08:45 AM

I've read interesting theories that the whole thing about Abraham as father of Ishmael and the Arabs was a political thing constructed by Jews at that time to explain why they dispossessed Arabs of the Israelites' lands they'd wandered into - the same way they made up the story of Esau selling his birthright to explain why they conquered Edom.

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #15 - April 07, 2009, 08:59 AM

Quote from: Lana on April 06, 2009, 10:53 PM
Quote from: aliadiere on April 06, 2009, 02:03 PM
Here are the responses I have so far.

Quote
as salamu alaikum,

how many instances in the quran does allah swt mention the house of god as "kaba" ?

Then certainly we can't expect the bible or torah to mention it by name specifically either. but we have instances where it is mentioned (without directly stating it's name) such as:

Quote
Psalm 138

1I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.

2I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Why is that about the Kaba? Wouldn't it make more sense if it were the Temple of Solomon that David was referring to there?

That is exactly what I responded, seeing as the jewish Qibla at the time was the temple of Soloman. Never mind. It was a bit optimistic of me to expect a serious historiographical discussion on Ummah.com

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #16 - April 07, 2009, 10:07 AM

Quote from: Rashna on April 06, 2009, 10:59 PM
Quote from: SmartAssmodeus on April 06, 2009, 07:13 PM
I don't believe it. Your writing is too knowledgeable and erudite to come from a 14yo. Maybe a 24yo.

I am erudite, on the subject of Islam-I've spent the last year & a half extensively researching it. Many of my friends are as erudite, on stuff they're interested it-even if that stuff is boys! On a serious note, many are erudite on various subjects.Maybe you've met many airheads my age? You can visit me too if\when you come to India.

Just about everybody (boys and girls) I've met in the 12 - 18 age range here in the States is an airhead or at least acts like one. I have no explanation. I swear, we have the biggest population of airheads on the planet. (Think G W Bush and how he got there.)
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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #17 - May 14, 2009, 06:06 PM

Quote from: aliadiere on April 05, 2009, 01:23 PM

Firstly, if these stories about Adam and Ibrahim are true, how come there is not even a single mention of Mecca, the Ka'aba and the Zamzam well in any of the other revealed texts, i.e. the Bible and the Torah. How come there is no mention of Djinns in these texts either? I know that you may say that these texts have been changed throughout time, but if these stories were true, and the texts were revealed by god, surely there would at least be some trace left in the other revealed texts.

Secondly, were Pagan Arab beliefs, rituals and myths incorporated into Islam. The Ka'aba, the Hajj, tawaf, hurling stones at the three pillars of Mina, and the belief in Djinns were all aspects of Pagan spirituality, yet not mentioned in the other Abrahamic faiths. Was Islam just a melting pot of Judaism, Christianity, and Arab Paganism?

Good questions!

Another question that occured to me as I read your post is that the Qur'an says no warner had been sent to the Arabs - yet (according to Islam) Abraham came there and built the Ka'ba and dedicated it to Allah. The Hajj rituals that existed before Muhammad recognised Ibrahim's influence (the Hanifs of Arabia before Islam were said to be following the religion of Abraham) and they had the belief in the one supreme Allah. And Abraham's son - born in Mecca was of course Ismail - the father of the Arabs!

So who were Abraham and Ismail if they were not warners then? (There were also other Arab prophets i.e. Salih and Shu'ayb)
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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #18 - May 15, 2009, 05:04 AM

Quote from: Baal on April 05, 2009, 03:59 PM
Agreed. Muhammad's grand-father and main source of parentage, was a hanafi.

I think you mean hanif. Hanafis came later, after Abu Hanifa.

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #19 - May 15, 2009, 05:07 AM

Quote from: awais on May 15, 2009, 05:04 AM
Quote from: Baal on April 05, 2009, 03:59 PM
Agreed. Muhammad's grand-father and main source of parentage, was a hanafi.

I think you mean hanif. Hanafis came later, after Abu Hanifa.

But is there any tangible proof (beyond the Quran and Hadith) for this Hanifa myth? I mean, it would be a good base for them to suggest that they are decendents of Arab "jewls in the rough" monotheists and followers of the old Abrahamic way.

I don't know of any surviving non-Islamic Arab monotheist religion and I have never seen or heard of writings prior to Islam. So maybe it was a lie to base their religion on something?

Just puttin it out there.
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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #20 - May 15, 2009, 05:28 AM

Then that makes Zayd bin Amr bin Nawfal (and Waraqa bin Nawfal, et al) made up, and throws this theory to trash?

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #21 - May 15, 2009, 05:37 AM

Quote from: awais on May 15, 2009, 05:28 AM
Then that makes Zayd bin Amr bin Nawfal (and Waraqa bin Nawfal, et al) made up, and throws this theory to trash?

Waraqah was a trinity rejecting Christian "heretic". That isn't the same as being a Hanifa.

The sources we have tell us that these hanifas used to stay away from alcohol, gambling etc etc and think about Allah all the time. Apparantly mountain sitting was a Hanifa method of being with God.

Sounds a bit too convenient to me.

Waraqah may have wrote some of the Quran or all of it, but remember that he was a Christian at one point and had gotten his ideas from there.

I don't see the whole Hanifa thing playing out, because it's meant to be distinct from Christianity (which was "corrupted" by this time by the Romans), Judaism (Also corrupted with the Jews of Arabia associating Ezra with God ) and Sabeanism (whatever that was), but at the time deviating from an organised religion would be insane. Heresy is different to deviation because every heretic has always said that their path was the real and original path. So the Ebonite Christians like Waraqah would have thought themselves the true Christians and everyone else non-Christians etc etc.
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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #22 - May 15, 2009, 05:40 AM

Quote from: Astaghfirullah on May 15, 2009, 05:37 AM
Quote from: awais on May 15, 2009, 05:28 AM
Then that makes Zayd bin Amr bin Nawfal (and Waraqa bin Nawfal, et al) made up, and throws this theory to trash?

Waraqah was a trinity rejecting Christian "heretic". That isn't the same as being a Hanifa.

The sources we have tell us that these hanifas used to stay away from alcohol, gambling etc etc and think about Allah all the time. Apparantly mountain sitting was a Hanifa method of being with God.

Sounds a bit too convenient to me.

Do you have a link to the source you're using?

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Re: Jahiliyah
Reply #23 - May 15, 2009, 06:04 AM

I read Waraqa was a morbidly obese bastard

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