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Theme Changer

 Topic: Difference between pedophile & hebephile

 (Read 15115 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     OP - March 31, 2009, 09:08 AM

    This has been bothering me for sometime... where does pedophilia end & hebephilia begin? And is hebephilia wrong at all, provided the adolescent is mature enough & consents?

    I know I like some celebrities like say Brad Pitt, I would date them if they asked me & I consider myself mature, is that wrong?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #1 - March 31, 2009, 09:36 AM

    There's nothing wrong with it as long as it is consensual. The reason it is illegal is to protect kids as they can be easily coerced or there may be power abuse. Though I personally think the age of consent should be lowered.
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #2 - March 31, 2009, 09:41 AM

    Rashna,
    You are matured and can give a thoughtful consent, not all 14 year old can. It will be very difficult for law to analyze individual cases, that is why to set the consent limit slightly higher is safe.
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #3 - March 31, 2009, 12:09 PM

    Though I personally think the age of consent should be lowered.

     Afro I agree with Calm too, but I really don't find the idea of hebephilia as bad as pedophilia & I think the adolescent isn't at all blameless, we have a very hot Math teacher, all the boys are crazy over her, suppose she were to date one of them I wouldn't label her a rapist as some would, she probably should've refrained from such a relationship but I don't think having an affair with a 14 year old boy is the same as seducing a 10 year old boy.

    The adolescent deserves a share of the balme too IMO.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #4 - March 31, 2009, 12:51 PM

    As far as i know, the age of consent in my country (Italy) is 14.
    I would date a 14 year old girl if she were exceptionally mature and she expressed any desire to date me etcetera.

    A 0.001 chance event Tongue

    I see most other countries laws as being too strict about this.
    I think it would make more sense to judge "consent" on an individual basis.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #5 - March 31, 2009, 02:58 PM

    what's hebephile??

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #6 - March 31, 2009, 03:23 PM

    what's hebephile??


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia vomit

    Sorry, but there is just something creepy and nauseating about an older man being ONLY attracted to pubescent teens, not even LATE pubescent, rather just having hit puberty to mid puberty.

    So my 10 yr old neice got her period, which is the start of puberty, if some guy fancied her would he be a pedo or a hebephile?


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #7 - March 31, 2009, 03:29 PM

    Quote from: BerberElla
    Sorry, but there is just something creepy and nauseating about an older man being ONLY attracted to pubescent teens, not even LATE pubescent, rather just having hit puberty to mid puberty.

    +1

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #8 - March 31, 2009, 05:03 PM

    what's hebephile??


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia vomit

    Sorry, but there is just something creepy and nauseating about an older man being ONLY attracted to pubescent teens, not even LATE pubescent, rather just having hit puberty to mid puberty.

    So my 10 yr old neice got her period, which is the start of puberty, if some guy fancied her would he be a pedo or a hebephile?




    Judging by the definitions, I don't see the diffrence. They both seem the same to me. Pubescent or Prepubescent....does it really matter? In the end, they are both attracted to children.  Which in my opinion is disturbing no matter how you word it.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #9 - March 31, 2009, 06:02 PM

    Quote from: Tlaloc
    I see most other countries laws as being too strict about this.
    I think it would make more sense to judge "consent" on an individual basis.


    I don't know what the law is like in Switzerland, but in the UK or Ireland that would be a bad move.  The rules of evidence over here prevent a court from accepting the uncorroborated word of a child, so a rapist simply needs to pick a young victim, claim consent, and under your proposal he would have a get out of jail free card.

    Its already hard enough for adult rape victims to get their attacker convicted if its her word against his, but with an underage victim the judge would have to tell the jury to discount her word unless there was a witness or CCTV footage or some other corroboration.  Guilty men would find it so easy to get off it would be like open season on underage girls.

    The other way to go would be to start accepting the uncorroborated word of a child in court, and that is likely to lead to a lot of innocent men being convicted.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #10 - March 31, 2009, 06:08 PM

    This has been bothering me for sometime... where does pedophilia end & hebephilia begin?


    Puberty.

    Quote
    And is hebephilia wrong at all, provided the adolescent is mature enough & consents?


    It's creepy as hell, but I don't think people should be imprisoned for it if there was indeed consent. The problem with age of consent laws is they are necessarily arbitrary, and I don't think people should be imprisoned on the basis of arbitrary standards. However, I do think some sort of line is useful.

    I'd favor reforming laws to where you set some sort of line based on the expert opinions of psychiatrists on the age that cognitive functions normally develop in most people to make them capable of informed consent. Let's say 15 as an example. If you are an adult and have sex with someone under 15 who is still post-pubescent, the authorities could launch an inquiry, and if they believed there was not informed consent, they charge the person. At this point, although the burden of proving the act occurred still falls on the state, the burden of proving consent would be on the defendant, but they could still offer it as an affirmative defense (which is not now possible in my country at least for "statutory rape" cases).

    If, however, the juvenile involved is pre-pubescent, this should automatically be considered rape, and if convicted (unless the convict is a juvenile themselves) they should receive a life sentence as recidivism amongst child molesters is very high. I would also end the current practice in many states of automatically sending convicted skinners to seg so they won't themselves be raped, beaten and perhaps killed. You rape a kid, fuck you, the state has no special burden to defend you from other prisoners-- I say throw them in general pop like everyone else and let them take their chances.

    fuck you
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #11 - March 31, 2009, 06:08 PM

    ^^ What she said.

    I'm personally happy with the age of consent at 16, I think it protects MORE than it causes a nuisance.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #12 - March 31, 2009, 06:13 PM

    Quote from: Tlaloc
    I see most other countries laws as being too strict about this.
    I think it would make more sense to judge "consent" on an individual basis.


    I don't know what the law is like in Switzerland, but in the UK or Ireland that would be a bad move.  The rules of evidence over here prevent a court from accepting the uncorroborated word of a child, so a rapist simply needs to pick a young victim, claim consent, and under your proposal he would have a get out of jail free card.

    Its already hard enough for adult rape victims to get their attacker convicted if its her word against his, but with an underage victim the judge would have to tell the jury to discount her word unless there was a witness or CCTV footage or some other corroboration.  Guilty men would find it so easy to get off it would be like open season on underage girls.

    The other way to go would be to start accepting the uncorroborated word of a child in court, and that is likely to lead to a lot of innocent men being convicted.


    What about what I suggested-- lack of consent is presumed amongst post-pubescent minors below a certain age, but the defendant can try to show consent as an affirmative defense? In other words, the state has the burden of proving the act occurred, but the defendant has the burden of proving consent-- if the state proves commission of the act and the defendant can't prove there was informed consent, they go to prison, but if they can prove informed consent beyond a reasonable doubt, they beat the rap.

    fuck you
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #13 - March 31, 2009, 06:21 PM

    Thanks for your comments everyone!  Afro
    Actually, I study in a co ed school & I genuinely don't think that any boy or girl is totally immature to be unable to give consent. I was watching a show on Oprah the other day where a 13 year old boy had been "seduced" or "raped" by his teacher, the teacher became pregnant & had a child & the boy's parents were screaming that she'd ruined their son's life & she's a rapist.

    While I definitely think that the teacher acted very inappropriately & should be punished- I don't know how far the boy's seduction was rape. If any boy in my class has sex with a teacher willingly, I won't consider him completely incapable of giving consent. If the boy was 8-10 years old, its different-at least IMO.

    While many boys & girls in my class are pretty immature I know we are certainly more mature than what we were 5 years ago, & if someone has sexual relations with such an adolescent, the adolescent does need to shoulder a small share of the blame too.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #14 - March 31, 2009, 06:28 PM

    Quote
    What about what I suggested-- lack of consent is presumed amongst post-pubescent minors below a certain age, but the defendant can try to show consent as an affirmative defense? In other words, the state has the burden of proving the act occurred, but the defendant has the burden of proving consent-- if the state proves commission of the act and the defendant can't prove there was informed consent, they go to prison, but if they can prove informed consent beyond a reasonable doubt, they beat the rap.


    I think that would be worse than what we have,  because you are shifting the burden of proof from the prosecution to the defense.  Even worse, if the defendant failed to prove "informed consent" - and how exactly would you prove that? - he would be convicted of actual rape rather than the lesser crime of statutory rape.

    For all the flaws in the present system, its about the best you're ever going to get it,  because it minimises the risk of sending a man to prison on the word of a child, and also prevents sex offenders from claiming consent as a defense where the victim is too young to stand up to cross examination.  The judge can still use his/her discretion in sentencing, which is why in practise a man who has consensual sex with a 14 year old is not going to get the same treatment as a man who molests a 10 year old.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #15 - March 31, 2009, 06:31 PM

    Quote from: Rashna
    While many boys & girls in my class are pretty immature I know we are certainly more mature than what we were 5 years ago, & if someone has sexual relations with such an adolescent, the adolescent does need to shoulder a small share of the blame too.


    Not criminally they shouldn't.  The adult can get treated more leniently in court as a result of the adolescent's maturity and complicitly, but the legal blame still lies 100% with the adult.

    If there is blaming to be done to the teenager it should be in the form of their parents grounding them.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #16 - March 31, 2009, 06:52 PM

    Quote
    What about what I suggested-- lack of consent is presumed amongst post-pubescent minors below a certain age, but the defendant can try to show consent as an affirmative defense? In other words, the state has the burden of proving the act occurred, but the defendant has the burden of proving consent-- if the state proves commission of the act and the defendant can't prove there was informed consent, they go to prison, but if they can prove informed consent beyond a reasonable doubt, they beat the rap.


    I think that would be worse than what we have,  because you are shifting the burden of proof from the prosecution to the defense.


    Only for purposes of an affirmative defense. The prosecution would still have to prove that sexual contact occurred.

    Quote
    Even worse, if the defendant failed to prove "informed consent" - and how exactly would you prove that?


    The minor says they consented, no one can refute his/her testimony, and psychiatric witnesses state the minor is capable of informed consent.

    Quote
    - he would be convicted of actual rape rather than the lesser crime of statutory rape.


    Admittedly I had not considered it, but the fix is easy enough-- the process I outlined above would only apply if someone is charged with statutory rape. If the prosecution has reason to believe it would have been considered rape no matter the age of the victim, then they could charge both rape and stat rape, but the jury would have to be instructed on the different procedures for each-- it could even involve a two-stage trial/verdict. But if it's just stat, then that's the charge and that's the conviction, even with the new procedure I am proposing.

    Quote
    For all the flaws in the present system, its about the best you're ever going to get it,  because it minimises the risk of sending a man to prison on the word of a child, and also prevents sex offenders from claiming consent as a defense where the victim is too young to stand up to cross examination. 


    You may be right, but I'm pretty sold on my idea. Smiley

    Quote
    The judge can still use his/her discretion in sentencing, which is why in practise a man who has consensual sex with a 14 year old is not going to get the same treatment as a man who molests a 10 year old.


    True, but, if the sex really is consensual, then I don't think someone should be going to prison for any length of time. The only legitimate reason to take away someone's rights and freedom by locking them in a cage is because they violated (or attempted/conspired to violate) the rights of another, not because they committed an immoral or "icky" act. Jailing someone for anything less than that is unjust. I think the community should be able to discriminate against the person if they want b/c they consider it an immoral act (refusing him housing, shunning him, refusing to employ him, etc.), but the state has no right to jail someone for consensual activity, no matter how immoral it may be.

    fuck you
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #17 - March 31, 2009, 07:01 PM

    Thanks for your comments everyone!  Afro
    Actually, I study in a co ed school & I genuinely don't think that any boy or girl is totally immature to be unable to give consent. I was watching a show on Oprah the other day where a 13 year old boy had been "seduced" or "raped" by his teacher, the teacher became pregnant & had a child & the boy's parents were screaming that she'd ruined their son's life & she's a rapist.

    While I definitely think that the teacher acted very inappropriately & should be punished- I don't know how far the boy's seduction was rape. If any boy in my class has sex with a teacher willingly, I won't consider him completely incapable of giving consent. If the boy was 8-10 years old, its different-at least IMO.

    While many boys & girls in my class are pretty immature I know we are certainly more mature than what we were 5 years ago, & if someone has sexual relations with such an adolescent, the adolescent does need to shoulder a small share of the blame too.


    I know what you mean. Whenever I see some story of a hot teacher "seducing" her male students all I can think of is "where were these teachers when I was going to Jr. High/High School?" You know how most of these teachers get caught? The boy brags to all of his friends. Yeah, I'm sure they're really traumatized by the whole experience of having sex with their hot teacher before most of their more than eager friends have had sex at all.  Roll Eyes It's the parents who are horrified and angry and screaming for the teacher's blood-- I can't say I blame them, but should the state be complicit in sating the parent's revenge for an arguably immoral but consensual act? I've met a couple of guys who had sex with their teacher in HS or Jr. High (but the teacher didn't get caught), and they're STILL bragging about it, not complaining to a therapist about how traumatized they are.

    fuck you
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #18 - March 31, 2009, 07:17 PM

    Quote
    Only for purposes of an affirmative defense. The prosecution would still have to prove that sexual contact occurred.


    That's the easy part.  You've given the prosecution the easy part, with concrete forensic evidence which is either there or not there, and given the defense a nebulous concept like "informed consent."

    Quote
    The minor says they consented, no one can refute his/her testimony


    The uncorroborated word of a child cannot be accepted as evidence in court.  If you're striking down that principle you are likely to convict more innocent people, because if no one can refute her when she says she consented, no one can refute her if she says she didn't.  Her word is either evidence both ways, or it can't be evidence at all.

    Quote
    and psychiatric witnesses state the minor is capable of informed consent.


    What if the prosecution has a pet psychiatrist that says she is, and the defense has one that says she isn't?

    Even if a court psychiatrist says she is, the burden of proof is on the defense, which means one expert witness who dissents could be enough to convict him of rape.

    Quote
    Admittedly I had not considered it, but the fix is easy enough-- the process I outlined above would only apply if someone is charged with statutory rape. If the prosecution has reason to believe it would have been considered rape no matter the age of the victim, then they could charge both rape and stat rape, but the jury would have to be instructed on the different procedures for each-- it could even involve a two-stage trial/verdict. But if it's just stat, then that's the charge and that's the conviction, even with the new procedure I am proposing.


    I don't follow your logic here - how would statutory rape even be a crime if your reform was put in place?

    Quote
    True, but, if the sex really is consensual, then I don't think someone should be going to prison for any length of time. The only legitimate reason to take away someone's rights and freedom by locking them in a cage is because they violated (or attempted/conspired to violate) the rights of another, not because they committed an immoral or "icky" act. Jailing someone for anything less than that is unjust. I think the community should be able to discriminate against the person if they want b/c they consider it an immoral act (refusing him housing, shunning him, refusing to employ him, etc.), but the state has no right to jail someone for consensual activity, no matter how immoral it may be.


    Exactly my point above.  Statutory rape would no longer be a crime if that was the order of the day, so every case of under age sex would have to be tried as the more serious crime of rape.  Justice should demand that if you increase the seriousness of the charge a man is faced with, the burden of proof on which he can be convicted should also be increased or at least left the same.  Your idea would lower the burden of proof for the prosecution, while making the consequences of conviction far more serious.

    Better to just leave it as it is and let judges handle consensual sex between adults and adolescents with community service, fines, suspended sentences and the like.  In reality, that's what happens anyway, so if it ain't broken don't try and fix it.







    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #19 - March 31, 2009, 08:07 PM

    Ya know, Cheetah, as much as I like debating with smart people it can be a real pain in the ass and a huge investment of time. My suggestion is before you read the rest of what I wrote, you crush up a Verced or two and down it with a beer. Then you'll be all: "Ah, shit Q-Man, you're right, you're right, you're...ehhhh...*snore*, *snore*"

    That's the easy part.  You've given the prosecution the easy part, with concrete forensic evidence which is either there or not there, and given the defense a nebulous concept like "informed consent."


    True, but that's a better defense than they would have otherwise if the prosecution could prove they had sex with someone just under the age.

    Quote
    The uncorroborated word of a child cannot be accepted as evidence in court.  If you're striking down that principle you are likely to convict more innocent people, because if no one can refute her when she says she consented, no one can refute her if she says she didn't.  Her word is either evidence both ways, or it can't be evidence at all.


    First off, if the experts say s/he was capable of informed consent, and the prosecution cannot bring forth witnesses or evidence to suggest that s/he is lying or has reason to lie, then there is no good reason to believe s/he's not telling the truth. After all, if we are to believe this individual's cognitive abilities and level of maturity are enough to actually give informed consent to sex, then why wouldn't we also find them to be a credible witness?

    Second, if the alleged victim says they do not consent then there is at least one person who could potentially challenge and refute their testimony-- the defendant him/herself.

    Quote
    What if the prosecution has a pet psychiatrist that says she is, and the defense has one that says she isn't?

    Even if a court psychiatrist says she is, the burden of proof is on the defense, which means one expert witness who dissents could be enough to convict him of rape.


    This actually raises a broader jurisprudential issue that concerns me regarding the use of expert psychiatric witnesses in the common law system. I'd favor changing the rules when it comes to psychological/psychiatric evaluations at trial. I'd make it more like a pre-trial hearing, where the judge calls the witness and questions them, except I'd also permit juries to ask questions and I'd have more protections in the selection of a third-party expert witness to ensure neutrality. Although I generally favor the common law to the civil law, it's not without its flaws, and I would favor adding some civil law elements (such as judge as inquistor in certain scenarios, like above) as well as entirely new ones to reform the current system, which has some flaws that I find seriously disconcerting and frequently harmful to the idea of justice.

    Quote
    I don't follow your logic here - how would statutory rape even be a crime if your reform was put in place?


    I don't know how to explain it any better than I already have. Under my proposal, you still have one kind of rape/sexual assault charge that involves sex without informed consent because the victim is cognitively incapable of giving it due to age or mental defect (I'm using stat rape as shorthand but you can use whatever term you like), then you have one kind of rape which is not consensual because the victim actively objected to it. The only difference is that age, while weighing very heavily in determining whether or not someone had the cognitive ability to give consent, under my proposal is not the be-all and end-all of making the determination like it is now.

    Quote
    Exactly my point above.  Statutory rape would no longer be a crime if that was the order of the day, so every case of under age sex would have to be tried as the more serious crime of rape.  Justice should demand that if you increase the seriousness of the charge a man is faced with, the burden of proof on which he can be convicted should also be increased or at least left the same.  Your idea would lower the burden of proof for the prosecution, while making the consequences of conviction far more serious.


    I think I addressed this above.

    Quote
    Better to just leave it as it is and let judges handle consensual sex between adults and adolescents with community service, fines, suspended sentences and the like.  In reality, that's what happens anyway, so if it ain't broken don't try and fix it.


    That's fine if you live in a country with a reasonable criminal justice system, but in my country we throw people in the can quite frequently and for long periods. We have the highest incarceration rate in the world, both in terms of total inmate population and per-capita, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't trust the sentencing judges to behave in a reasonable and humane manner. I'm in favor of any reform to our current system that reduces the number of people in prison for consensual and non-violent activity-- there are way too many already on drug charges alone. Well, maybe not ANY reform, but chances are, if that's the result of the reform I'm more likely than not to look favorably upon it.

    fuck you
  • Re: Difference between pedophile & hebephile
     Reply #20 - April 01, 2009, 01:30 PM

    Quote from: BerberElla
    Sorry, but there is just something creepy and nauseating about an older man being ONLY attracted to pubescent teens, not even LATE pubescent, rather just having hit puberty to mid puberty.

    +1

    Maybe it is okay as long as the relation is doomed to end in 3-4 years.  parrot

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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