The biblical Jesus was not crucified by the Jews alone. It was a joint operation with the Romans. Both wanted him out. The alleged son himself never said that it was his alleged father's plan to save humanity from sin. Of course it is absurd. Thanks for agreeing on this absurdity.
Whether the crucifixtion was a joint operation or not doesn't add anything to the debate, so both Jews or Romans wanted him out. Duh. The alleged son died uttering..."Forgive them Daddy..." & his disciples might've claimed that he did all this to save the world from sin. Yep, I'll repeat that its absurd-everything absurd isn't evil or dangerous. I think that the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is absurd, maybe more than Jesus' death to save the world, but I don't live in the fear that a few followers' of the Flying Spaghetti Monster cult will bomb London trains or fly planes into buildings. I find the Islamic idea of Muhammad being a Prophet absurd as well, & dangerous too unlike the idea of God crucified or Flying Spaghetti Monsters.
He was a rude and a violent man. If you read the way he spoke to Pharisees, Sadducees and other Jews, you can see how violent, rude and hurtful was he in his speeches and addresses. The gospels you read have been tidied up and where necessary, stories have been added up to make him look nicer.
Yep, so he was rude to loads of people in his speeches, just like Muhammad was rude to Meccans' who disbelieved his claims of Prophethood. Being rude isn't a crime at all, its called freedom of speech, which most Muslim countries sadly lack. One can criticise anything one dislikes, again as I'm not a Christian I don't need to defend Jesus rudeness, but I'll defend anyone's freedom of speech, your friend AhmedBahgat is rude to plenty of members of this site, & plenty of members are rude to Islam & Muslims. Is that dangerous? Absolutely not. But if an ex Muslim begin shooting burkha clad women on the streets, or if a Muslim begins murdering apostates, that'd certainly be violation of the law.Likewise, if a Muslim begins demanding that non Muslims pay special taxes called jizya, that'd be illegal in most countries' too. Jesus had different opinions from his society, he often rudely expressed his opinions, Muhammad had different opinions, he went ahead & smashed the idolaters' idols & killed an entire tribe of Jews when they refused to either accept him as their Messiah or pay jizya.
Did you not read that he went berserk in the Temple and threw money, chairs and tables belonging to others. The biblical Jesus could not control his anger, while Muhammad could and did.
Mo could & did control his temper?
thats' one of the funniest things I ever heard. The man murdered an entire tribe of Jews, smashed all idols & forcibly converted idolaters-& I'm not even going into all the violent stuff he's recorded to have done in the hadiths, coz I know you're embarrassed by them.
Listen, I've never personally met either Jeebus or Mo, I don't know what they were like or if they even existed. There are no photographic evidences of them, no voice recordings-all we can know of them are from others words. Mo's words were written by his followers', Jesus words by his followers. Any follower might've made an addition or ommision, God didn't speak from the sky authenticating the accounts. All I know from the accounts was that Muhammad comes across as a forcible proselytizer, Jesus as a benign, sometimes rude man.
Islam does not have a bad history like that of Christianity at all. Even the Jews appreciate and are grateful for their life under Islam. The pogroms and inquisition were only carried out in every Christian country.
Of course, Islam has as bad a history as Christianity, the Jews weren't the only people in the world to be discriminated against by Muslims & Christians' you know. The Zoroastrians of Iran were grossly discriminated against, so were the Coptic Christians' of Egypt(just ask Baal), so were the Hindus & Buddhists of the sub continent, so were Sikhs etc. In Faith Freedom, don't you come across Christians, Jews, Hindus & Zoroastrians all disliking Islam? All these folks were discriminated against, often there were mass murders & pogroms.
Here's a history of Anti Semitism in the Arab world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_and_antisemitismThe world and it's success you see today has had no contribution from Christianity at all. Only after the WWII, the modern educated people have made the world a better place.
Right, absolutely agree with you there. Except that, these modern educated people also happen to be disproportionately Jews & Christians & a few others too, but not too many Muslims. Actually, the world was on the way to become a better place even before World War II. No civilization had so completely abolished slavery before the West did, Islamic countries were the very last to abolish slavery & that too at the urging of the West. Saudi, Islam's birthplace abolished slavery in 1962, a century after U.S.A., & at U.S.A.'s urging.Other people have often become modern & educated too, like Japan which is non Muslim. In fact, even when Muslims reside with other, "modern, educated people" they fare badly. In Malaysia, the richest are Chinese, followed by Indians, Muslims are poorer inspite of the Bumiputra policies benefitting them.Same in Thailand, where Buddists are richer than Muslims. Saudi has just 70+% literacy, it doesn't let women drive & imports drivers from Thailand & Phillipines, two countries which don't have oil, but have 90+% literacy. Muslims are often the last to get modern & educated, last to abolish slavery, last to give women right to vote or drive-& finally do all this at the urging of other modern, educated folks.
First you must understand that the biblical Jesus did not bring anything new. Zilsch! People were not pagans and idolators. The holy scriptures were there and the people were fiercely monotheistic which means they were believers in the One LORD Almighty God. The religious infrastructure was well-established. The man came as a reformer.
As a teacher, he started talking too much and ridiculed all the priests, high priest, the Chief Priest, etc. He did not even open his own mouth and say who he was or what was his message and why was he there? He gave no clue and his own disciples were dumb and clueless. You can see that when you read the gospels.
So whats' the very big deal of people being pagans' or idolaters or believing in the "abominable" doctrine of Trinity? Whats' the very great urgency of reforming those practices? Many people in the world believe in many gods, many in one god, many don't believe at all, they'll all have to be forced to believe in One God as Muhammad taught, or pay jizya.
Look at Japan, its so rich & successful, you won't hear of horrible stories like lashings & stonings from there, compare it to Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran or Saudi all fiercely monotheistic. The Japanese are polytheistic, Shinto-Buddhists, do they need to believe in Afghanistan's One God? The Thais worship before idols of the Buddha, the Afghans broke the idols of Buddha, does Thailand have to become like Taliban?Many Swiss & Dutch & most Frence are Catholics, believing in the
abominable doctrine of Trinity, Muslims are fiercely monotheistic, why do Muslims from Turkey & other places want to settle in these Catholic coubtries?Because they have higher standards of living, they've managed to become "modern & educated," which Muslim monotheists haven't.
As for the Jews, sure they were fiercely monotheistic, but they never enforced their views on others, that is why they lived happily with Pre Islamic Arabs', & the Arabs liked them too. When Kaab ibn al Ashraf's father married his Jewish mom, their son was raised as a Jew. Islam wants others either to become monotheistic or pay jizya.
There is nothing in Qur'aan saying, "Come! Let us go and attack the Jews or Christians to kill them."
Anyway, the biblical Jesus was a failure and stories were spun to cover that great failure. I do not know what did he achieve?
He left a silly legacy of unclear messages which led to the abomination known as trinity.
No passage in the Quran advocating murder?
What about this bit?
Sura IX.5: "Then, when the sacred months have passed away, kill the idolaters wherever you find them ","and seize them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere for them." Ah, you might say, you have deliberately left out the words that come after those. Let us quote them then, "If
they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful."
Thus this passage says that if the idolaters convert to Islam, they'll be allowed to go. I challenge you to find Jesus saying anywhere to kill idolaters(or others) wherever his followers find them & only leaving them if they convert to Christianity. While this passage refers to idolaters, it can well be applied to Christians who follow the
abominable doctrine of Trinity.
As for the Trinity, how does it matter? If people want to worship One God, Three in One Gods, many Gods, No God-its all their choice. Many people find the idea of God itself abominable, does it mean that they can force others to give up God? One God worshippers,
Trinitarians, polytheists, atheists & agnosts all have equal human rights, none should be forcefully converted or made to pay jizya. It isn't about what people worship, but how they act in life. The Jews' are fiercely monotheistic, but they don't impose monotheism on anyone, they're some of the richest, most educated & contribute most to the modern world, so do the polytheistic Japanese, so do many Trinitarian Catholics & so do many non religious Swedes & Norwegians-while a certain group of fiercely monotheistic folks called Muslims bomb, stone, stab & lash...
So Christians' worship the Trinity, which you find abominable. I & much of the world find Muslim stonings & lashings abominable, Trinity worship hurts no one, stonings & lashings do.
That, Jesus saved a woman from stoning, is a hoax. It is a fraud. I don't know when that forgery was added in John's gospel. In fact, looking at his comment "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.", he should have cast the first stone according to his Dad's law. I don't know if you can understand what I mean?
Again what is hoax & what is not isn't important, Jesus might never have lived we can't prove or disprove anything because historical records are poor. I have to look at Jesus character as he's portrayed & assess what he brought the world, we can see that as he was alleged to stop a stoning, Christians haven't stoned for 2000 years, nor lashed. Because Muhammad was "fiercely monotheistic", he might've disliked Three Gods, but stonings & lashings occur amongst his followers to this day.
Is it any wonder that Muslims from "fiercely monotheistic" Muslim nations flee to the countries where the "Abominable Trinity" is worshipped-for peace, prosperity & better human rights?
Topic: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only