Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Recent Posts


On why I chose to identif...
Yesterday at 11:54 PM

'Islamic State' a.k.a. IS...
Yesterday at 11:46 PM

Russell Brand.
by Jedi
Yesterday at 11:10 PM

Discussion about "My Orde...
Yesterday at 10:38 PM

Near Death Experiences
by lua
Yesterday at 09:23 PM

Pakistan School Massacre
by Ram
Yesterday at 03:02 PM

The Pakistani origins of ...
Yesterday at 01:32 PM

Elephants in Arabia
Yesterday at 12:16 AM

Discussion about topic: ...
December 19, 2014, 11:49 PM

Syria
December 19, 2014, 11:43 PM

The Documentaries thread
December 19, 2014, 11:28 PM

Daisy Chain
by zeca
December 19, 2014, 09:50 PM

Donations

Kitty is lost

Theme Changer

 Topic: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)

 (Read 7439 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     OP - March 24, 2009, 09:42 AM

    Hinduism and me
    I had written similar post before a while but it is not visible now, so I am making a new one.
    I am sorry if this is a repition and readers are bored.

    So, here are my objections:

    1. Caste system: In Hinduism, Humans are not born equal. Many people now a days say that it was just a classification based on ones profession and later they system got corrupted. But, ask a traditional practising Hindu, and she will still believe that it is decided by birth. Yes, in rural India there are still some restaurants where lower caste peole have to take their own utensils. Islam did use sword to spread but many converts wanted to gain self esteem by converting to Islam and Christianity and wanted to be equal. I think they have done right thing.

    2. Karma: Karma is a fine doctrine as far as it is used as a tool to take responsibilty of ones life. Like If I don't study, I will not pass the exam. However, it is dangerous when it is used against the opressed class of society, say for example treatment of widows in Hinduism. It is believed that because Widow did bad things in previous life, she is suffering and that is why she is suffering and then she is barred from many social and religious ocassions.

    3.Hindu Nationalism: This is a recent phenomena. However, a dangerous one. They really feel it is OK to harass Christian converts from Hinduism, and it is OK to vandalize Church.

    4. The religious knowledge is always treated with great secret, I don't know why. I have heared many pundit in real life saying like 'XYZ westerner or ABC common man does not have caliber to understand this.' Who gave Pundit the right to decide caliber of others?

    5. Treatment of Women: Women is either goddess or some kind of evil. Either she sacrifices or she traps someone. Yes, there are example of women scholars and warriors but they are exceptions. It was always believed that women should stay in protection of father, brother or husband etc. As if she is always to be controlled.


    And obviously there are bits I like:

    1. There is a clear distinction between Shrutis (Upanishad, Gita etc. Philosophical text) and Smritis (laws and mythology) and it is believed that only core philosophy remains constant and rest all changes according to time and place. And hence, Hindus have done a lot in terms of social change in past 200 yrs, however the core teaching remains largely unaffected. I hope this happens with Islam as well.

    2. Belief in Universal Salvation: This is a very basic concept of Hinduism. The very first text mentions that there are many ways to one single truth. And there are branches of Hinduism that are agnostic or atheist (Mimansa branch). So, liberation is also available to atheists.

    3. There is a concept called as 'KarmaYoga' which means basically doing your duty without expectation of material or spiritual rewards. I find it much more better than doing good deeds for heaven. Plus, it emphasis on doing duty and it does not give absolute Dos and Donts.

    Currently, What do I believe then?
    I am still a non religious theist. There are some bits of Upanishad I like, that goes for Sufism as well. I don't like dogmatic, traditional religions, I like really enjoy mysticism. I have discussed all of the above with my Dad and hubby, they were pretty OK with it.
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #1 - March 24, 2009, 10:20 AM

    One more point of Criticism is Spiritual Masters are raised to the status of God and finally it forms a cult. Like, Iskcon believes the founder of Vaishnava moment was incarnation of God. And there will be many example like this. Again I like Islam in that regards, it is stressed again and again that Muhammed is a human. In south Asian countires, Sufis place too much importance on Murshid, that might be under influence of Hinduism.

    I have seen many otherwise intelligent and educated Hindus giving much of their wealth and decision making capacities to godmen. This is the part which irritates me. 
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #2 - March 24, 2009, 10:59 AM

    I don't believe the caste system is laid down in it's current (oppressive) terms in the Vedas, but it's certainly true that the concept of reincarnation can be used to justify such inequalities and injustice.

    Oh, I just realized this is your blog, do you mind if I post here?

    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #3 - March 24, 2009, 11:09 AM

    One more point of Criticism is Spiritual Masters are raised to the status of God and finally it forms a cult. Like, Iskcon believes the founder of Vaishnava moment was incarnation of God. And there will be many example like this. Again I like Islam in that regards, it is stressed again and again that Muhammed is a human. In south Asian countires, Sufis place too much importance on Murshid, that might be under influence of Hinduism.

    I have seen many otherwise intelligent and educated Hindus giving much of their wealth and decision making capacities to godmen. This is the part which irritates me. 


    I'd read your last post some months back when I used to lurk on this forum & that was great. Afro

    I think in Hinduism everything under the Sun is raised to the status of a "God" and that God is a god with a small g, rather than monotheism's God who is God with a capital G. The Hindu born Buddha would criticise aspects of Hinduism just like Jewish Jesus would criticise Christianity, but while strictly monotheistic YHWH worshipping Jews adopted the tactic of crucifying Jesus as a heretic, millions of god\s worshipping Hindus simply began to worship the Buddha as another God. They worship at the Dargahs of Sufi saints, even made Jesus into an incarnation.

    As for stressing that Mohammed is a human, Muslims put tremendous emphasis on djinns, after prayers, they greet the two Djinns on their left & right. www.islamawareness.net/Jinn/


    Christians, at least the biggest denomination of Catholics tremendously believe in "Saints" & supposed miracles performed by them, proof of a "Miracle" is neccessary for Sainthood, & these Saints are rather spiritually similar to Hinduism's incarnations. Just like human saints are men & women, but their difference with other humans is one of degree, so too incarnations are ordinary humans, simply superior in degree to others.

    Rich Americans too give a lot of their wealth to faith healers like these.
    www.rickross.com/reference/hinn/hinn1.html

    Theism is a belief which gives meaning & a framework of life to people, belief in supernatural beings like djinns, saints or godmen is an additional belief which many people additionally feel a need to subscribe to, thus naturally even soft monotheisms like Trinitarian Christianity or strict monotheisms like Islam have happily subscribed to this notion to greater or lesser extents, it feeds the spiritual hunger of many just like plain theism feeds the spiritual hunger of those who don't associate with a particular faith.

    Actually, homo sapiens are also homo religiosus, these faith healers or even "cults" are like something to hold onto in the despiriting world, just like you like bits of religious poetry or sayings & still call yourself a theist inspite of no proof of God, some people like to feel the presence of either the Divine or Holiness in the world, be it through Christian Saints, Hindu incarnations or even fortune tellers-inspite of education & wealth.

    P.S. Why did you start researching Islam Calm? You were also there in FFI right? I started researching Islam coz my mom's a Muslim & my grandpa used to proselytize to me while my father's family strongly disliked Islam for its effect on Zoroastrianism-I decided to find out The Truth About Islam for myself.  grin12

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #4 - March 24, 2009, 11:17 AM

    1. Caste system: In Hinduism, Humans are not born equal. Many people now a days say that it was just a classification based on ones profession and later they system got corrupted. But, ask a traditional practising Hindu, and she will still believe that it is decided by birth. Yes, in rural India there are still some restaurants where lower caste peole have to take their own utensils. Islam did use sword to spread but many converts wanted to gain self esteem by converting to Islam and Christianity and wanted to be equal. I think they have done right thing.

    ===========

    Very rich post Calm.. Smiley

    I'd really like to know more, i'm very ignorant when it comes to such details about Hinduism;

    Can you tell me more about the the quoted above, I dont really understand it, ain't this sort of prejudice and/or racism?

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #5 - March 24, 2009, 12:51 PM

    Askel, you can definitely write in my blog.
    Emerald more on Caste, I feel it is very similar to racism. However, racism is towards unknown people, this is something people do with their own people.

    Theologically Vedas don't say Caste system should exist as it is currently. It just mentions that Brahmanas (meaning teachers, religious leaders, writers, poets,artists) are from head of cosmic person, Kshatriya (Kings, military person, ministers) are from  hands of cosmic person. Vaishya (Business men) are from thigh of cosmic person and Shudra (labourers) are from feet of cosmic person. Some philosophers explain that this is a methaphor; because head, hands, thigh, feet specifies intelligence & intuition, power, wealth and support. They are to be equally respected. And caste system was mobile at some extent during Vedic time.Fair enough till this point. But,that is Vedic Hinduism which was not very clear about Karma and Rebirth.

    The issue comes in Classical Hinduism where karma of your previous lives decide what your next life will be. So if I get birth in Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya household, traditional Hindus conclude that my Karma is good and they think I will be rewarded with all good things in life. If I get birth as a Shudra or an out caste, it is because I deserved it. And I should bear all the punishment so that my next life will be good. This lead to constraint in choice of occupation. So for ppl belonging to Shudra and outcastes only choices left were to do menial jobs. They could not pursue financial, intellectual or political careers. They were barred from taking Sanskrit education. Finally, they did not even have access to clean water, they were not allowed to use communal water resources. Manusmriti (law book of Hindus) further discrimanted saying a Brahim can not be given death sentence whatever unpardonable crime he committs. It banned intercaste marriages making the caste system completely rigid. This lasted for more than 2000 yrs.  And, yes highest Sin in Hinduism is just not muder, it is murder of a Brahmin.

    However, to be fair Mahabharata states that the level of punishment should increase as the caste level goes up. Say for a theft Shudra is punished for 4 yrs, Vaishya should be given 8 yrs, Kshatriya should be given 16 yrs and Brahim should be given 32 yrs of punishment. I need to find this reference.


    Buddha was the first to oppose caste system. Then during 13th to 16th century devotion movement a number of Hindu saints came from lowe caste. They had to suffer a lot during their life time, but got acceptance after their death.

    In practice today, castes are divided in sub castes which serve as a social system. My subcaste arrange elocution, sports, debates etc. Provides scholarships and medical relief funds and obviously play a role in match making. So, it forms a kind of support system. When you are need, you take from there. When you are well to do, do charity to sub caste. It provides such a strong social back bone that there are very less chances of system breaking up.

  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #6 - March 24, 2009, 12:58 PM

    Rashna,
    I have a Sufi friend who gave me quite rosy picture of Islam. Like Universal broother-hood, the whole human kind under one God, rights for women. So I also decided to search for the negative opinion. I found FFI. I did not do a lot ofposting there, as I felt it was not my type of board.

    And finally I realised that Islam was unacceptable to me and even many parts of Hinduism. I still have good relationship with my friend though. I generally don't bring up Islam in our discussion.
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #7 - March 24, 2009, 01:06 PM

    Buddha was the first to oppose caste system. Then during 13th to 16th century devotion movement a number of Hindu saints came from lowe caste. They had to suffer a lot during their life time, but got acceptance after their death.


    Wasn't Krishna supposedly a cowherd boy? That's the third caste down. I don't think he suffered a lot during his life.

    Also Valmiki who wrote the Ramayana, he was a bandit, turned saint.

    And of course Tulsi Das who did the Hindi Ramayana. He was the son of the servant lady of some sages. He grew up around them and learnt the scripture. Never heard of him suffering really.

    Of course the caste system is a burden around the necks of so so many and must be reformed, just like the class system in Western societies had to.


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #8 - March 24, 2009, 01:19 PM


    Wasn't Krishna supposedly a cowherd boy? That's the third caste down. I don't think he suffered a lot during his life.



    Krishna's real parents belonged to warrior caste and foster parents belonged to third caste. Those belonging to first, second and third caste don't suffer. Rather third caste contains businessmen, farmers and dairy workers and financially most influencial. Only Shudras and Out castes suffer. In his intial life Krishna was a cowherd according to his parent's caste and in later life a statesman according to his real parents caste. But, say if Krishna want's be a religious teacher having a school of young pupils, he can't do that. 

    Quote
    Also Valmiki who wrote the Ramayana, he was a bandit, turned saint.

    Valmiki was a Shudra and also a bandit and he got a lot of respect  and wrote epic. There are other saints as well like Namdev, Rohidaas Chamar. But, Ghazali, we can count them on fingers. They are exceptions. What about millions who were denied access to education and clean water? 

    Quote
    And of course Tulsi Das who did the Hindi Ramayana. He was the son of the servant lady of some sages. He grew up around them and learnt the scripture. Never heard of him suffering really.


    Tulsidaas was a brahim and got educated from a brahmin guru. His Ramayan is excellent peace of Hindi literature. Contains some poetic gems and quite enjoyable.  however he strictly believed in traditional caste system. It is in his ramayan which states 'Drum, females, Sudra and fools can be beaten.'

    Quote
    Of course the caste system is a burden around the necks of so so many and must be reformed, just like the class system in Western societies had to.

    Yes, and I am proud of young generation  Hindus who are letting this system go slowly slowly.
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #9 - March 24, 2009, 01:21 PM

    Just did some searches on Gita and Caste system and found these verses.

    Chapter 4, Verse 13 - According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.

    According to this it states work is ascribed to the four divisions (castes). It does not state people are actually born into those caste have to stay in it. It depends of the work and character of the person.

    Later on it states:

    Chapter 18, Verse 41 - Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by their qualities of work, O chastiser of the enemy, in accordance with the modes of nature.

    So here it confirms that the persons in castes are distinguished by the quality of their work. So if you are born in a high caste but your works do not reflect it then you should not remain in that caste.

    Of it is a recipe for abuse.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #10 - March 24, 2009, 01:33 PM

    That is how it is interpreted by modern thinkers. I would be very happy to have that interpretation.
    But a traditional view point considers


    Chapter 6, Verse 41.
    The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy.

    Chapter 6, Verse 42.
    Or he takes his birth in a family of transcendentalists who are surely great in wisdom. Verily, such a birth is rare in this world.

    So they say good people are born in good families that is first 3 castes because they say righteous means Kshatrya, aristrocate means Business ppl and transedentalist means Brahmin. So good souls get birth in good families.

    Shankarcharya is authority in Classical Hinduism. Read his view
    http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap1.htm

    I guess there are some 9 chapters or more. He believes caste is based on birth and brahims are superior. However, he does not support untouchability. And even traditional Hindu texts don't mention anything about untouchability.

    Where is neo Hindu organizations say Caste is classification based on action and attitude.
    http://krishna.org/the-indian-caste-system/

    Read this thread on Hindu board:
    http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3429
    See how many people support birth based caste understanding. OP there is a good friend of mine.
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #11 - March 24, 2009, 01:41 PM

    Yes, I am critic of Hinduism but I feel it funny when Christian fundie try to convert me using their loving God. Most of their  criticism of hinduism is very shallow and they are not even informed well.
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #12 - March 24, 2009, 01:43 PM

    Oh I do think that most Hindus do believe that birth within a particular caste is based on your kaarma or actions in previous lives.

    But the point that should be made, is that just because you are born in that caste does not mean you have a free ticket to remain in it if your work and character are not in keeping with the qualities outlined for that caste. You cannot be a teacher oor a priest if you are inclined to fighting.

    The main issue is that the caste should just be a social division which people can change based on their qualities.

    The fact, that based on your karma you are born into a caste should not mean you have to stay in it all your life.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #13 - March 24, 2009, 01:48 PM

    I would love to have that understanding propagated across Hindu Scholars and mass.

    Valmiki was given great respect but they did not change his caste status to Brahmin. Why?

    Ravana did all the bad things in life, still after killing him Ram incurred sin of 'Murdering a brahmin', why he was considered as a Brahmin?

    And there are numerous other example where that happened.
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #14 - March 24, 2009, 01:56 PM

    Ok, now some more good bits which I like

    - Hinduism is not oppossed to belief in evolution. Most Hindus are perfectly fine sharing common ancestor with apes. There might be few religious nut case opposing it, but in general they are fine, they don't insist on teaching their creation stories in school. Plus, On highest level Brahman (Absolute) do not need to do anything. His Prakriti (nature) runs by itself. So, they don't have problem with big bang either irrespectve of their n different creation stories. 

    - Hindus generally don't have strong oppostion to IVF, stem cell research etc. They do believe in sanctity of life. But, generally the concept extends to all the living beings and not only humans.
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #15 - March 24, 2009, 01:57 PM

    Wouldn't Ravana have been from the warrior class?

    But why their status did not change I wouldn't have a clue. But then again they are just stories.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #16 - March 24, 2009, 02:01 PM

    Ravana was a Brahmin. I know they are just stories but they are reflection of society. a.ghazali, Hinduism is a religion open to multiple  interpretations. And I would be very happy to see a paradigm shift with regards to caste.
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #17 - March 24, 2009, 03:38 PM

    Hinduism and me
    Islam did use sword to spread but many converts wanted to gain self esteem by converting to Islam and Christianity and wanted to be equal. I think they have done right thing.

    Islam is always very pleased to narrate this little bit, well nothing wrong with that, what is wrong is that they they either are genuinely ignorant or deliberately leave out the unpleasant bit of the tale of their spread in India. Muslims will often claim that they converted to escape the "caste system" which was apparently ruthlessly oppressing them in Pre Islamic conquest India, while also often making the contradictory claim that they're descended from "Pure Arabs" or "Pure Persians"

    Actually, when Islam made its inroads into India, there was another casteless faith already in existence-Buddhism, the University of Nalanda had flourished for almost a millennia. What did the Muslim conqueror Ikhtiyar ud din Mohammed bin Bakhtiyar do on reaching this great centre of learning, which drew scholars from all parts of Asia? He inquired whether there was any copy of the Quran, & on receiving an answer in the negative, proceeded to destroy this great ancient centre of Pan Asian wishdom. When a Tibetan scholars visited it a few decades later, he found a Buddhist monk Rahula Sthirabhadra teaching just a few students(down from thousands) in a dilapidated part of the building. B.R. Ambedkar too has attributed the reason of the complete annihilation of Buddhism in India to Islam & goes on to say Islam displaced Buddhism wherever it travelled, in Gandhara(the last vestiges of the once flourishing faith, the Bamiyan Buddhas, razed to the ground by the Taliban), Xinjiang & parts of Central Asia.

    It is interesting to note that Islam spread best in those parts of India which had been Buddhist. The region of Sind(present day Pak) was Buddhist majority when the province became the first to become conquered & Islamized, the region of Bengal was a great centre of Buddhism under the Pala Empire, in fact Buddhism went to Tibet due to Pala missionaries. Kashmir was a great centre of Buddhist learning in India as well, there remains a tiny Buddhist population till date.






    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #18 - March 24, 2009, 03:44 PM

    Yes Rashna, Good historic info. Destruction of Nalanda was violent. I don't deny any aspect of Islamic violence. I have read somewhere that Tipu Sultan ordered that all Nambudri Brahmin should convert or they should be killed.
     
     However, I do acceptpossibility that there are Hindus who genuinely converted to Islam and Christianity to escape caste system.
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #19 - March 24, 2009, 03:51 PM


     
     However, I do accept possibility that there are Hindus who genuinely converted to Islam and Christianity to escape caste system.


    Sure, thats very true. And yes, Tipu Sultan was a horrific bigot, its a shame that Indian politically correct history portrats him as some glorious freedom fighter. The same thing seems to be happening all over the world, the Crusades which was a belated(but bloody) reaction to Muslim conquests of Christian lands is portrayed by the mentally dhimmified Western media as an example of Christian violence & Muslim pacifism. Muslim fundies in the Crusade Era are portrayed as epitomes of tolerance.  Smiley

    Of course, this delights Muslims, they don't have to take any responsibility or apologise, like the Hindus did with Dalits or the West with Blacks\Jews-they can continue to portray themselves as all tolerant people roused to violence at the present date due to Christian, Hindu, American, Jewish, Western, Thai, Filipino etc violence... Roll Eyes

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #20 - March 24, 2009, 03:54 PM

    Many religions and cultures  have done horrible mistakes. Islam is significantly different in the aspect that Muslims has yet to realize the violence they did was not right.
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #21 - March 24, 2009, 03:59 PM

    Islam is significantly different in the aspect that Muslims has yet to realize the violence they did was not right.


    And the leftists & negationists are certainly not helping in this regard by treating Muslims as small children whose delicate feelings have to be protected... whistling2

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #22 - March 24, 2009, 04:02 PM

    Many religions and cultures  have done horrible mistakes. Islam is significantly different in the aspect that Muslims has yet to realize the violence they did was not right.

    True, they often still see them as glorious acts of defiance & power.  

    However in their defence, this is not because they are inherently bad, but because they genuinely felt they were doing them a favour by trading their land for a place in heaven.

    My Book     news002       
    My Videos  pccoffee
    Contact  tacklehug

    Islam is a Thought-Suppressant Memeplex dressed in Religious Garbe
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #23 - March 24, 2009, 04:20 PM

    Rashna,
    I have a Sufi friend who gave me quite rosy picture of Islam. Like Universal broother-hood, the whole human kind under one God, rights for women. So I also decided to search for the negative opinion. I found FFI. I did not do a lot ofposting there, as I felt it was not my type of board.

    And finally I realised that Islam was unacceptable to me and even many parts of Hinduism. I still have good relationship with my friend though. I generally don't bring up Islam in our discussion.


    Your friend was either genuinely ignorant of these bits of Islam, or maybe just giving dawa dishonestly.

    Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah?s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah?s Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us.

    Tabari IX 69


    I heard the Apostle say: ?Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks?. Allah sent down concerning him: ?To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom." [9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ?If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'
    Ishaq 243
    Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African?s color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks.
    Tabari II 11
    Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham?s descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem?s, the latter would enslave them.
    Tabari II 21
    It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah?s army is bound to disgrace you. We brought them to the pit. Hell was their meeting place. We collected them there, black slaves, men of no descent.
    Ishaq 450
    The black troops and slaves of the Meccans cried out and the Muslims replied, ?Allah destroy your sight, you impious rascals.?

    Ishaq 374

    Its ironical that while the Brit colonizers were criticising Hindus for casteism, the Western world either had a Bible based slavery & racial apartheid. The belief as in the Muslim sources I quoted was that-Blacks are Ham's descendants, meant for slavery.

    In fact, American schools got de segregated  a decade & a half after India legally abolished casteism.South Africa's Constitution declared it a Christian nation during the Apartheid Era, today its desegregated & secular. During the American Civil Wars too, the Southern Baptist Church supported Black slavery on Biblical Basis.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #24 - March 24, 2009, 04:24 PM

    Rashna,
    I always thought Islam as colour blind.
    Regarding Christianity, as I mentioned I found their criticism of Hinduism very much hypocritical. For many years they thought Bible allows racism, not very differentthan caste. If some Christian fundie asks me about caste system support in Hinduism. I answer 'as much as slavery in bible' Cheesy
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #25 - March 24, 2009, 05:08 PM

    Rashna,
    I always thought Islam as colour blind.
    Regarding Christianity, as I mentioned I found their criticism of Hinduism very much hypocritical. For many years they thought Bible allows racism, not very differentthan caste. If some Christian fundie asks me about caste system support in Hinduism. I answer 'as much as slavery in bible' Cheesy


    Nope, even now racism flourishes in Islamic countries. It did from the start of Islam and it has always flourished in it's own ways (with Arabs being at the top of the table and Africans being at the bottom).

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #26 - March 24, 2009, 06:46 PM

    Rashna,
    I always thought Islam as colour blind.


    Yet another successful propaganda people fall for. Islam markets itself as color blind & oh-so-free from racial\caste prejudices, but the reality is vastly different. The Arabs were prime actors in the American Slave Trade, they laughed all the way to their Shariah interest free banks with the money they minted selling blacks to Americans, Muslim countries were the last to abolish slavery, U.S.A. abolished slavery in 1865, Saudi a century later in 1963, that too at the strong urging of U.S. President Clinton & finally again at the urging of Satanic America, the black slaves got their freedom.

    Osama's Deputy Zawahiri, himself an Arab Egyptian(and a reputed surgeon, hailing from a long family of physicians) recently called Obama a "house negro" in his native tongue. A good thing must've come out of it, Blacks would become aware of Arab-Islamic racism.

    www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/11/zawahiri_slur_a.html

    Well, we can't blame Muslims for their false propaganda when the world is either apathetic or too busy sympathising with Muslim whinings or wary of hurting super sensitive Muslims by either questioning their historical misdeeds or their Prophet Mo. As Toynbee rightly said, "Civilizations fall from suicide, not murder." Muslims however, aren't keen to return the favor, they'll criticise everyone else's faiths, demand land, their own Shariah laws wherever they live.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #27 - July 26, 2009, 11:41 AM

    Never knew that about Karma.
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #28 - August 30, 2009, 01:54 PM

    One more point of Criticism is Spiritual Masters are raised to the status of God and finally it forms a cult. Like, Iskcon believes the founder of Vaishnava moment was incarnation of God. And there will be many example like this. Again I like Islam in that regards, it is stressed again and again that Muhammed is a human. In south Asian countires, Sufis place too much importance on Murshid, that might be under influence of Hinduism.


    But why is monotheism so better? In that case also, you are actually being slaves to unchallengable dogma made by men who died centuries ago. Since they are dogma, you are being slaves to dead men. I believe Hinduism is not as dogmatic.

    The idea that anything could be God in Hinduism was the reason for the broad mindedness with respect to other religions, and the resulting religious tolerance that existed in India for centuries, well until the recent rise of Hindu nationalism.
    Think of the diverse foreign communities that came to India; Jews, Eastern and Western Christianity, Muslims, Parsis, Armenians etc..

    Quote
    I have seen many otherwise intelligent and educated Hindus giving much of their wealth and decision making capacities to godmen. This is the part which irritates me. 


    It's the same as followers selling their mind to monotheistic clerics. In fact I think, it's better. At least Hindu Godmen don't advocate medieval literalist ideas for today.

    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: Hinduism and Me (Repeat Post)
     Reply #29 - August 30, 2009, 02:08 PM

    Rashna,
    I always thought Islam as colour blind.
    Regarding Christianity, as I mentioned I found their criticism of Hinduism very much hypocritical. For many years they thought Bible allows racism, not very differentthan caste. If some Christian fundie asks me about caste system support in Hinduism. I answer 'as much as slavery in bible' Cheesy


    The bible does allow slavery, but not racism I guess, at least literally. Galations 3:28 " There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." is sort of against racism.

    The Ham story itself doesn't contain any literal advocacy of racism. But the Ham theology was originally advocated by Middle Eastern Christians, which was later borrowed by Muslims. Europeans didn't know of it until they wanted slaves in America, and they borrowed the idea from Arabs.


    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »