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 Topic: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?

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  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #60 - January 04, 2009, 10:50 AM

    Quote from: Kamran
    You may have your like-minded supporters here (muslim haters, but trying to pretend to be neutral),

    Still believing in conspiracy theories? There is no secret forum cabal trying to spread Zionist propaganda. It's just your wild imagination. My sympathy for Israel is my own stance as an individual ex-Muslim, and not the official stance of the CEMB. Did you think all ex-Muslims have to adhere to the same political views?

    Quote from: Kamran
    It's no more than ZOG propaganda against Muslims.

    Well, I was putting words into your mouth? This just keeps getting better. I think with the right incentive, you'll start talking about shapeshifting aliens, too. 

     Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

    Quote from: Kamran
    As far as banning is concerned, would it be a loss to me, considering I'm realising it's no more than a mini FF?

    Do I have to remind you that you have posted white nationalist propaganda on the forums? Who are you to judge whether this forum is intolerant, or FFI-like?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #61 - January 04, 2009, 01:10 PM

    Quote
    I guess the moral of the story is this: when in doubt, you can always tell if a Muslim is truly moderate by their stance on Israel. Indeed, Israel has become the ultimate litmus test in that regard.

    You can condemn bin Laden all day long. But if you refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist, spew anti-Semitic rhetoric and apologize for mindless terrorism against Israel, you are anything but moderate - regardless of your business suit and university degree.

    Source


    What do you think?




    One's stand on Israel should never be a test on how moderate a Muslim is.

    I'm sick of the way any criticism of Israel brings accusations of 'supporting Hamas/terrorists'.

    I don't understand why one can't be opposed to Hamas AND opposed to Israel's bombardment of the Gaza strip.

    Nor is it being an Islamic extremist to suggest that Israel's bombardment is a gross violation of everything that is right and civilized and that the Israeli government is little better than terrorists themselves.

    I'm sick and fucking tired of the way Israel get everyone to shut up so that they can kill innocent men women and children.

    And of course Zaephon will cry what about Hamas?  Fuck Hamas!  Get it?  I doubt it.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #62 - January 04, 2009, 01:16 PM


    One's stand on Israel should never be a test on how moderate a Muslim is.

    I'm sick of the way any criticism of Israel brings accusations of 'supporting Hamas/terrorists'.

    I don't understand why one can't be opposed to Hamas AND opposed to Israel's bombardment of the Gaza strip.

    Nor is it being an Islamic extremist to suggest that Israel's bombardment is a gross violation of everything that is right and civilized and that the Israeli government is little better than terrorists themselves.

    I'm sick and fucking tired of the way Israel get everyone to shut up so that they can kill innocent men women and children.

    And of course Zaephon will cry what about Hamas?  Fuck Hamas!  Get it?  I doubt it.


    +1  Afro

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #63 - January 04, 2009, 01:24 PM

    Make that +2  grin12

    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #64 - January 04, 2009, 02:14 PM

    One's stand on Israel should never be a test on how moderate a Muslim is.


    Why is that? Because finding out what a person holds in their head on a volatile issue can indeed reveal where they are likely to stand on other issues. It reveals what sense of justice they have and how susceptible they are to suggestion and peer pressure. That's basic forensic science on the cognitive interviewing level. Get used to it.

    I'm sick of the way any criticism of Israel brings accusations of 'supporting Hamas/terrorists'.


    That's your subjective view and probably arrived at from reading biased responses without understanding that plenty of people criticize Israel legitimately without being Hamas supporters. So you're wrong on this one but if it helps get you through the day there's nothing I (nor anybody else) can do about it.

    I don't understand why one can't be opposed to Hamas AND opposed to Israel's bombardment of the Gaza strip.


    Who is saying that these are irreconcilable opposites? I don't like violence and I don't wish it upon others (unlike your brother). So I can say I don't understand why someone can be opposed to Israel and still hold murderous resentments against someone else who holds that Israel has a right to exist and defend itself with pre-emptive strikes. How's that?

    Nor is it being an Islamic extremist to suggest that Israel's bombardment is a gross violation of everything that is right and civilized and that the Israeli government is little better than terrorists themselves.


    Absolutely. Except that you've lost perspective as to what started this latest round and retreated into an infantile argument that will not hold up to an honest analysis.

    I'm sick and fucking tired of the way Israel get everyone to shut up so that they can kill innocent men women and children.


    Maybe you can go one step further and start implicating ZOG in all this. By the way, Israel has not gotten "everyone to shut up so they can kill innocent men, women, and children." That's a childish take on the reality of military action and the amount of media publicity is impossible for any Israelis to control. If I was throwing hand grenades into my neighbor's yard for years it'll probably come to ahead with a SWAT team entering into my house and if I kept my wife and kids in the house all that time it does not mean that the SWAT team members are engaging in terrorism. They also didn't enter the premises just so "they can kill innocent men, women and children."


    And of course Zaephon will cry what about Hamas?  Fuck Hamas!  Get it?  I doubt it.


    Think of Hamas as a creep with his own house and family who continually threatens and attacks his neighbor's house. He's been given plenty of notice to cease and desist but is so confident in his beliefs since he actually has some local community activists taking his case as a cause celebre. He even has plenty of the local kids thinking that he's a neat guy.

    When the situation gets messy it gets really messy and in the end the SWAT team takes the blame for this creep's actions that kicked off this sorry chain of events. Get it? I don't think you ever will. Now what's with the roaring silence on your part when it comes to your brother's disgusting wish for Zaephon?
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #65 - January 04, 2009, 02:44 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    One's stand on Israel should never be a test on how moderate a Muslim is.

     Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

    While I disagree with your puerile comments about how Israel "shuts everyone up" --given the presence of countless individuals and newspapers blaming Israel day and night for the attacks-- or how "the Israeli government are terrorists" I have posted this, in case you have skipped it:

    Quote from: Zaephon
    I have to agree. Moderation is a difficult concept, and it shouldn't be indexed to a single political issue. I would include anti-Semitic vitriol amongst the obvious symptoms of fanaticism, though.

    Get it? I doubt it. By the way, please tell your brother to stop calling for violence against other posters. I'm not getting the best ideas about your "family."

    Why admins are tolerating such direct attacks must be beyond my humble understanding, since other posters were punished for less, and I don't remember anyone who made threats against any other poster and still eluded any moderative action.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #66 - January 04, 2009, 02:49 PM

    By the way, please tell your brother to stop calling for violence against other posters. I'm not getting the best ideas about your "family."

    Why admins are tolerating such direct attacks must be beyond my humble understanding, since other posters were punished for less, and I don't remember anyone who made threats against any other poster and still eluded any moderative action.


    I honestly don't know what you and Ansari are on about. In case you have not noticed I have not been on the forum a lot lately and haven't read any comments by my brother - and so I have no idea what he said to you.

    I am not my brother's keeper - nor am I responsible for what he says or does not say.

    If you have a problem, please take it up with the Mods - and please leave the rest of my family out of it.

  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #67 - January 04, 2009, 02:55 PM



    Why admins are tolerating such direct attacks must be beyond my humble understanding, since other posters were punished for less, and I don't remember anyone who made threats against any other poster and still eluded any moderative action.


    No one is eluding anyone, a person doesn't get smited without a general consensus amongst the team, and it is under discussion with only Os left to comment.

    Patience.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #68 - January 04, 2009, 03:19 PM

    I honestly don't know what you and Ansari are on about. In case you have not noticed I have not been on the forum a lot lately and haven't read any comments by my brother - and so I have no idea what he said to you.


    Just scroll around this thread and you'll see what he said to Zaephon.


    I am not my brother's keeper -


    But you should be. He needs guidance.

    nor am I responsible for what he says or does not say.


    True but a nice little reprimand might just do the trick towards getting more civil responses out of him. Who better to do that than his own brother?

    If you have a problem, please take it up with the Mods - and please leave the rest of my family out of it.


    It looks like they'll be taking this up amongst themselves in the near future. As far as I can tell your family is out of this debacle. Except for you brother.


  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #69 - January 04, 2009, 05:38 PM

    Have you ever been attacked by tolerant, heroic, anti-imperialist Muslims because you do not support the righteous cause of our Muslim brothers? I have been.



    Hospitalised, I would hope.



    Smite 1 - Jack the rules on this forum are quite clear on mocking someone else who has been subjected to violence, considering how long you have been a member at this forum, I would hope that had been drilled home by now.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #70 - January 05, 2009, 12:23 AM

    What part of it is bullshit, and crap, and hell?

    Attempting to support your point by linking to a website that is obviously in favour of, if not directly affiliated with, the Ku Klux Klan is hardly a viable strategy on this site. You can't really expect anyone to take you seriously if you're going to pull stunts like that.


    Once you get into the realm of conspiracy theory it becomes one big love in between the neo Nazis/far right white supremacists, the far left/communists and the Islamists.

    They might hate each other but they are all linking to each others literature.

    You have the BNP linking to Islamist conspiracy propaganda, the Left wing unions citing BNP articles about Zionist crimes and Islamists sharing platforms with Green Party conspiracy loons and BNP members all in the name of 911 troof and the Palestinian cause.

    I have lost count of how many times a Left wing union member or Liberal editor has had to apologise for linking to far right literature or employing Islamist bloggers to share their views on Israel.

    Quite simply the worst elements in society are the conspiracy nutters. They discredit themselves.

    Kamran might not be a neo Nazi or an Islamist but he sure is open to their views when it comes to America and Israel. If he takes their conspiracy theories seriously why not their ideas about racial purity or suicide murder?

    It's a slippery slope once you start taking extremist opinion as worthy of respect.

    Even if the conspiracy nuts were right about 911 (which they quite patently are not), I would rather throw my lot in with the corrupt politicians from the West than neo nazis, commies and islamists.

    At least Bush and Blair aren't totalitarian lunatics which lets face it most conspiracy nuts are.

    911 troofers are beyond a joke and they are bedfellows with the worst kinds of extremism from the Klu Klux Klan to the anti Semites of the Middle East.

     
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #71 - January 05, 2009, 12:48 AM

    Hass me old china, I have great respect for your views but in this debate youve got it all wrong.

    Israel did not shut anyone up and it is not deliberately targeting women and children or using preemptive strikes. It is defending itself against genocidal Hamas activists who are firing rockets into Israel with the hope of killing women and children.

    Israel is defending itself and trying to target military/Hamas targets, Hamas is the aggressor and it's intent is to target civilians.

    I hate to see what is happening in Gaza but Hamas instigated it not Israel.

    If Hamas had stopped firing rockets into Israel and instead focused their attention on making Gaza a model Palestinian government the siege would have been lifted and peace talks could have ensued but peace isn't on the Hamas agenda whereas it is on Israels.

    In this conflict intent is everything and a lot of people seem to forget that in their anger at Israeli policy.

    Israeli policy is defensive, Hamas policy is aggressive and genocidal.

    If the boot was on the other foot and Hamas had F16 fighter jets the death toll would be devastating. It's worth baring that in mind when we judge if the Israeli response is proportional or not.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #72 - January 05, 2009, 01:53 AM

    Quote
    In this conflict intent is everything and a lot of people seem to forget that in their anger at Israeli policy.


    How is 'intent' an objective measure of policy? Surely any action should be judged by its EFFECT, not its INTENT.
    Here's the outcome of Israel's good intentions and defensive policy:  500 palestinians killed since the latest conflict began, 2,300 injured. Collateral damage? The price to pay for rooting out the evil fascist regime that is Hamas?
    By contrast , how many people have been killed by the rocket attacks by Gaza since the beginning of last year? 17. Now I agree that is 17 too many, and would never condone the death of innocents. But how is 500 people killed in retaliation for the death of 17 proportional?

    You can talk all you like about the history of the conflict, hamas' charter, how the palestinians need to get their house in order etc....
    But two wrongs never have and never will make a right.
    If you had the power to , if it was you flying the F16 fighter jet and knew that there may be civilians beneath you who could be killed by your actions, would you push the button and release those bombs?  If you think that killing civilians is just the price we have to pay in order to further our aims, whether or not those aims and your 'intent' be noble ones like  world peace, the spread of freedom and democracy etc etc , or more questionable ones, how does that make you significantly different to the people who support the 9/11 bombers?

    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #73 - January 05, 2009, 03:22 AM

    Umm yes body count is not how to judge this situation. Intent is.

    People like Noam Chomsky used the collateral damage argument to compare the Clinton administrations air strikes against Sudan to the 911 attacks and it is a bad argument.

    He said a mere 3000 were killed on September the 11th but hundreds of thousands of people probably died because the factory bombed in Sudan was actually a pharmaceutical factory and people would not get their medication. Doesn't that just scream double standards.

    It's almost like saying that America are worse because they are rich and they don't feed the world so every person that dies of starvation is blood on American hands but genocidal maniacs are only a natural response to Americas cruelty.

    To compare a democratically elected leader who launches targeted attacks and has no interest in killing civilians to a genocidal maniac who wants to kill as many civilians as possible is absurd.

    That whole argument that permeates the Left is racist, it holds Western nations and peoples to a higher standard of morality than it does others.

    The Left talk as if they are pacifists whenever a Western nation uses it's military but becomes all revolutionary and gung ho when it's people like Hamas or Hezzbollah with their fingers on the trigger.

    Ken Livingston made the heart rending argument that Hamas only carries out indiscriminate attacks because they don't have the military hardware to beat the Israeli army and the Israelis have been armed to the teeth by the Americans. I paraphrase him, I think he said "The poor Palestinians only have their bodies to use as weapons but Israel has F16's"

    That must make the Israelis the villains then.

    His heart bleeds for the underdog but he cares not for their genocidal intent.

    One suspects that our Ken would like to see Hamas armed with helicopter gunships, and fighter jets thrashing the Israeli army and pushing them all into the sea.

    Anyway intent is very important in this situation.

    Would Israel be bombing Gaza if Hamas hadn't been bombing Israel? No

    Are Israeli trying to kill as many women and children as they can? No

    Is Hamas interested in killing women and children? Yes

    Would Hamas still be trying to kill Israeli women and children if Israel lifted the seige? Yes.

    Does the poor quality of the Quassam rockets make a difference? No

    Would you be asking your government to do something if Hamas was firing rockets at your neighborhood? More than likely.

    Are Israeli attacks on Palestinians more measured than attacks carried out on Palestinians by their Arab neighbours? Without a doubt.

    More Palestinians have died at the hands of other Arabs than they have from Israeli oppression but no one takes to the streets and condemns those crimes but when the Israelis try to defend themselves with targeted air strikes words like genocide and massacre are frequently used to describe their actions.

    I agree that Israel should pull back to the 67 borders but if the Gaza pull out is anything to go by this would only enhance the frequency of the attacks and on your reckoning they should be a nation of pacifists, mothball the military hardware and endure their coming persecution and the disintegration of their state.

    If they cannot use their military to defend themselves then they might as well dissolve Israel and hand it over to Hamas now.

    Those are the implications for a pacifist Israel.

    If you are not calling for a pacifistic Israeli policy how do you suggest they deal with the Hamas attacks?

     
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #74 - January 05, 2009, 03:43 AM

    Quote
    In this conflict intent is everything and a lot of people seem to forget that in their anger at Israeli policy.


    How is 'intent' an objective measure of policy? Surely any action should be judged by its EFFECT, not its INTENT.
    Here's the outcome of Israel's good intentions and defensive policy:  500 palestinians killed since the latest conflict began, 2,300 injured. Collateral damage? The price to pay for rooting out the evil fascist regime that is Hamas?
    By contrast , how many people have been killed by the rocket attacks by Gaza since the beginning of last year? 17. Now I agree that is 17 too many, and would never condone the death of innocents. But how is 500 people killed in retaliation for the death of 17 proportional?

    You can talk all you like about the history of the conflict, hamas' charter, how the palestinians need to get their house in order etc....
    But two wrongs never have and never will make a right.
    If you had the power to , if it was you flying the F16 fighter jet and knew that there may be civilians beneath you who could be killed by your actions, would you push the button and release those bombs?  If you think that killing civilians is just the price we have to pay in order to further our aims, whether or not those aims and your 'intent' be noble ones like  world peace, the spread of freedom and democracy etc etc , or more questionable ones, how does that make you significantly different to the people who support the 9/11 bombers?


    Israel, being a nation, is not in the business of conducting Vendettas. You kill 17 of mine, so I kill 17 of yours. or 170, or even 1700 or 170000. It is not a numbers game. Because I can assure you, if Israel wanted 170,000 , it would have been very possible. Also it is not just the victims of the rocket israel has to contend with, the devastation of the suicide bombings is also an issue to be dealt with.

    Most importantly, more important then the rockets or the suicide bombs, I personally do not see any possible way for israel to achieve peace with Hamas in power. Hamas has to be destroyed/killed/removed/made an example of, before any solution can be implemented.

    Now when a nation conducts an operation or proceed to deal with a perceived or a convicted criminal, it goes in to eradicate the threat. And considering the threat Hamas poses to the israelis, and to the palestinians and the neighboring arabs, I am very impressed at the extremely low number of collateral civilian damage relative to the hamas' successful kills.

    And if you have any doubt as to the threat hamas' existence poses to the neighboring arabs, consider then why did Egypt open fire on some of the Palestinians trying to escape through the Egyptian borders.

    As for the solution facing israel:

    Israel is in a position where it will have no choice but to give either a self-rule zone either a nation to the Palestinians. But before we even talk about Israel giving land to the Palestinians, Hamas has to be completely and utterly destroyed and removed from the political map for good with no chance of anything like it returning for the next Two decades.

    Why does israel has to set land aside to the Palestinians? Because Israel is a Democratic country. The only One in the area by the way. Currently Israel has a Jewish majority. If they merge the Jewish population with the Muslim population, then israel will lose the jewish majority. So israel is either to stop being a democracy, or to give the Palestinians land and let them self-rule.

    However the palestinians leadership (Hamas) knows that they are winning the population numbers game and this is why they do not want to split the israeli pie. Hamas wants full integration. So Hamas can conduct another vote and then go and throw the Jewish politicians from the top of buildings Fatah-Style and shoot them in the Knee for the purpose of crippling them.

    So as long as you have an Islamic Palestinian leadership that will refuse to break into Two nations, then we can not have peace, and currently, Hamas sees hope into getting all of israel so they won't let it go.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #75 - January 05, 2009, 03:50 AM

    If one looks at the first FFI site when it was Rational Thinking this quote from a sidebar is pertinent:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20011130090034/http://faithfreedom.org

    Quote
    I hope for peace. But I question how peace is possible with this much hate? Let us not hide our heads under the sand. We Muslims have a lot of soul searching to do. For how long shall we live in denial? Something is terribly wrong with us. We are filled with hate. The hatred of the Jews in ingrained in our subconscious and we carry it with ourselves even after we leave Islam. How can we make peace with those whom we hate so intensely?


    Think.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #76 - January 05, 2009, 04:57 AM

    If one looks at the first FFI site when it was Rational Thinking this quote from a sidebar is pertinent:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20011130090034/http://faithfreedom.org

    Quote
    I hope for peace. But I question how peace is possible with this much hate? Let us not hide our heads under the sand. We Muslims have a lot of soul searching to do. For how long shall we live in denial? Something is terribly wrong with us. We are filled with hate. The hatred of the Jews in ingrained in our subconscious and we carry it with ourselves even after we leave Islam. How can we make peace with those whom we hate so intensely?


    Think.



    That's the problem, I know their are batshit crazy, racist Israelis but they are not in power. Most Israelis civilians and those in the government want peace

    Hamas is in power and they are definitely batshit crazy racists with a very large constituency of supporters.

    It's Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Al Quieda  and their supporters who are the barrier to peace.

    Israel finds itself in the strange position of having their old enemy Fatah sharing their strategic aims. Hamas and their Islamist allies have got to go for peace to become a reality but if you listened to most of the commentary at the moment you would think it was Israel that had to go for peace to prevail.

    It's all arse over tit.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #77 - January 05, 2009, 05:16 AM

    Yeah I have to agree with that. I think the Israelis are going over the top (again) but they aren't the ones who actually want war. All the militants do is reduce the moral authority of the Palestinians. They don't advance the cause of justice or whatever one little bit. They're maniac thugs, pure and simple.

    The Israelis have got to negotiate a peaceful settlement sooner or later but to do that they need a negotiating partner who is prepared to compromise for the sake of lasting peace. Hamas isn't it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #78 - January 05, 2009, 05:48 AM

    I've got a good solution - Zionist shitbags fuck off out of Palestine. It's so simple. Afro

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #79 - January 05, 2009, 05:53 AM

    Aint gonna happen. Need a practical option.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #80 - January 05, 2009, 06:08 AM

    Aint gonna happen. Need a practical option.


    throw the zionist shitbags into the sea, out of the zionist entity... I think that is the "practical" solution, Jack is having in mind....
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #81 - January 05, 2009, 06:34 AM

    Reality check:

    1/ The Israelis are hardarse bastards who aren't going anywhere.

    2/ Hamas are batshit mental and wont rest until Israel is destroyed.

    3/ Obviously one or both of them have to go.

    4/ Israel is bigger and stronger.

    5/ Ditch Hamas.

    6/ If 5 then Israel no longer have a reason to attack.

    7/ Palestinians don't get killed by Israel. We have a winner.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #82 - January 05, 2009, 06:40 AM

    Oh and for anyone who is thinking it isn't that simple, it is. Ultimately, if you cut through all the crap this is what it comes down to. There is no other option worth considering unless you want to see a lot more people die.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #83 - January 05, 2009, 06:42 AM

    well, then - do tell, how to ditch Hamas. They won?t just go "whoo" and vanish in a puff of smoke... not to mention, that fatah only seems reasonable by comparison. Remember Arafat refused any compromise, too.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #84 - January 05, 2009, 06:51 AM

    That's the problem. Thing is that among the Palestinian people Hamas is seen as somehow heroic when in fact they're a huge liability. Until that public opinion changes Hamas will have a power base. Hamas will keep attacking Israel and Israel will retaliate. Palestinians will keep getting killed.

    I mean sure Israel grabbed a shitload of land but what happened when they actually did give some back? The whole idea behind talking Israel into giving up Gaza was that it would be the first step in a land for peace deal. What happened? Hamas and similar groups took it as a sign they were winning and kept attacking.

    Now we have this latest debacle. There was a ceasefire. It could have been extended. If it had been extended then this latest shitfight would not have gone ahead. Instead the militant groups don't even think of extending it and celebrate the end of it by launching a stack of rockets into Israel. Fuckwits. Absolute bloody idiots. They're so busy with their stupid little jihad that they don't give a fuck about the people around them.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #85 - January 05, 2009, 09:10 AM

    It seems that in order to prove you are a real moderate or a real Ex-Muslim you have to kiss Israels arse and believe everything they tell you and consider any Palestinian who complains about being driven form his home or has his children killed as either a terrorist or has brought this upon himself through his own fault - nothing to do with Israel.

    You have no idea how I get a sense of Deja-vu.

    When I was I was a Muslim many Muslims saw my criticisms of Hamas and the Palestinians as support for Israel. I was called a Zionist and a Jew.

    Isn't there a middle place?

    It seems not.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #86 - January 05, 2009, 09:22 AM

    It seems that in order to prove you are a real moderate or a real Ex-Muslim you have to kiss Israels arse and believe everything they tell you and consider any Palestinian who complains about being driven form his home or has his children killed as either a terrorist or has brought this upon himself through his own fault - nothing to do with Israel.

    You have no idea how I get a sense of Deja-vu.

    When I was I was a Muslim many Muslims saw my criticisms of Hamas and the Palestinians as support for Israel. I was called a Zionist and a Jew.

    Isn't there a middle place?

    It seems not.


    Of course there is middle ground but to talk about Israel as if it was a genocidal regime and to accuse them of deliberately targeting civilians or carrying out their recent attacks to do anything other than stop Hamas attacking them is to skew the reality of the situation.

    It's terrible to see innocent people suffer on either side but Hamas wants war Israel wants peace and there is no escaping this fact.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #87 - January 05, 2009, 12:20 PM

    It seems that in order to prove you are a real moderate or a real Ex-Muslim you have to kiss Israels arse and believe everything they tell you and consider any Palestinian who complains about being driven form his home or has his children killed as either a terrorist or has brought this upon himself through his own fault - nothing to do with Israel.

    You have no idea how I get a sense of Deja-vu.

    When I was I was a Muslim many Muslims saw my criticisms of Hamas and the Palestinians as support for Israel. I was called a Zionist and a Jew.

    Isn't there a middle place?

    It seems not.


    USA to Pakistan:
    Quote
    Either you are for us, or against us.
    If you are against us, we will bomb you back to the stone age.


    Bush to Blair:
    Quote
    No, I will not sign to the global warming.
    You and the world can do what's best for you, I will do what's best for me.

    (I do not owe you a favour for supporting my wars. You sucked my cock because you wanted to)

    Blair to Muslims:
    Quote
    It's absurd that Muslims think we should ammend our foriegn policy to appease them.

    (If we want to send a billion cluster bombs to Israel, that's up to us)

    Might is right.

    ================================================

    My link to a 'white nationalist site' has been rightly removed.
    I did not look at it long enough to realize.

    My point in the link was not that Jews are evil, anymore than the rest of us, given the right circumstance.
    It was to show that they had been persecuted for centuries by europeans.

    Quote
    They were persecuted because of Jesus

    There might be an element of that, but I think it was more than that.
    They have the ability to get in positions of power and minipulation.
    Good for them, I say. This art was perhaps a means of survival, otherwise the nice europeans would have murdered them all.

    Some of these same european bastards are now pointing fingers at muslims!?
    The Muslim, AND non-muslim, anger is not racial or religious. It's all about theft and injustice.

    Please google for 'jewish expulsions' and make sure it's not a 'white nationalist site.
    I don't want you to read any propaganda.
    Just the extent of how much they suffered at the hands of 'now i'm a jew lover, because I hate muslims', people.

    Quote
    Yeah, yeah, Kamran. We know it all. No need to provide link

    You know-it-all bastards might know it. I didn't. I was shocked.
    Maybe a few new members might be enlightened.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #88 - January 05, 2009, 12:59 PM

    I've got a good solution - Zionist shitbags fuck off out of Palestine. It's so simple. Afro

    How do you accomplish that? In concentration camps?

    Quote from: Iris
    But how is 500 people killed in retaliation for the death of 17 proportional?

    If Hamas had the required resources and power, they would kill many more than 500 civilians. The demise of Hamas will hopefully prevent the deaths of many more civilians in the future.

    But I do not think Hamas has too much regard for Palestinian civilians. The way they see it, if more civilians die, Israel loses the intellectual war and its relations with the West are crippled. If Israel does not strike for fear of killing civilians, then Hamas seizes more power. Hamas is flipping a coin but both sides of the coin bear the same inscription: death to Israel.

    Quote from: Kamran
    They have the ability to get in positions of power and minipulation.
    Good for them, I say. This art was perhaps a means of survival, otherwise the nice europeans would have murdered them all.

    Yeah, the good old "Jews always seize power, so they have to get kicked out by righteous multitudes who are starving because of Jewish monopoly" argument. What kind of power do you think Jews possess that they can "get into positions of power and manipulation" in every single country they immigrate to, and accomplish this with so much success that they have to get kicked out or annihilated in order to restore the good old order?

    Quote from: Kamran
    Some of these same european bastards are now pointing fingers at muslims!?

    Well, some Muslim bastards have always been "pointing fingers" at Jews all the time. Jews are convenient scapegoats for all the mishaps of the Islamic world.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Stand on Israel, ultimate litmus test on muslim moderation?
     Reply #89 - January 05, 2009, 02:29 PM

    It seems that in order to prove you are a real moderate or a real Ex-Muslim you have to kiss Israels arse and believe everything they tell you and consider any Palestinian who complains about being driven form his home or has his children killed as either a terrorist or has brought this upon himself through his own fault - nothing to do with Israel.

    You have no idea how I get a sense of Deja-vu.

    When I was I was a Muslim many Muslims saw my criticisms of Hamas and the Palestinians as support for Israel. I was called a Zionist and a Jew.

    Isn't there a middle place?

    It seems not.


    If you take a wander over to the Richard Dawkins forum and look at their Israel threads you will get another deja-vu.  They're every bit as divided, their threads are peppered with all the same ill tempered accusations on both sides, insults followed by warnings from mods, etc.  And yet most of them are neither muslim, nor ex-muslim.  Nor Jew nor ex-Jew come to think of it. 

    I think I will write an Internet law - we'll call it Cheetah's Law.

    Cheetah's Law.......

    The quickest way to start a huge, and utterly pointless,  ruckus on any given Internet forum is to start a thread about Israel. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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