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Theme Changer

 Topic: Muslims......& Women!

 (Read 64124 times)
  • 12 3 ... 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Muslims......& Women!
     OP - December 22, 2008, 10:53 AM

    Well,

    I know that many Muslims claim that women were severely humiliated and oppressed during the period of Ignorance (In Arabic 'jaheleyyah', the period of time before Muhammad got his false revelation)1, yet I do have my personal doubts concerning that;

    Let's see what some historians and Muslim scholars mentioned about that:


    "..There are stories indicating that some jaheleyyat "women of jaheleyya" did

    actually inherit from their husbands and relatives, and that the habit of depriving women

    of that was not common for all tribes..
    "  

    (Tareekh Al-Arab Qabl Al-Islam "History of Arabs before Islam" ; Dr. Jawad Ali ; V 5, P 274)...



    Khadeeja (Mu's 1st wife) was an example of that for she was a well known merchant and businesswoman who was one of the wealthiest people at the time. This is always well-attested in all Islamic history sources such as:

    (Biography of Ibn Ishaq, and Ibn Hisham)

    (Al-Tabaqat Al-Kubra 'The Major Biography Liars', by Ibn Sa'ad)

    (Al-Estee'ab 'The Absorption'; by Ibn Abd Alber)




    Dr. Jawad says:

    "There is a story says that "Thu Al-Masajid, Amer Ibn Jashm Ibn Ghanam Ibn Habib Ibn Ka'ab Ibn Yashkur" is the first Arabian man during that time who made shares for girls, and made it "to the male, a portion equal to that of two females" where Islam came and approved that."

    Tareekh Al-Arab Qabl Al-Islam "History of Arabs before Islam"



    Before the spread of Islam, when the Aws2 and Khazraj3 tribes swore allegiance to Muhammad during the so-called " Pledge of Al-Aqaba"4, there were two women with them "Nusaiba bent Ka'ab Um Umara (from the clan of Mazin Ibn Al-Najjar)" and "Asma'a bent AmrIbn Udai (from the clan of Banu Salama)"

    (Tareekh Al-Umam wa Al-Mulook (known as Tareekh al-Tabari) "History of Nations and Kings"; Ibn Jareer Al-Tabari ; V 2, P 562)



    In Seerat Ibn Hisham (Biography of Muhammad by Ibn Hisham) V 2; and all other biographies, it is well documented that women played a role in the battle of Uhud, like Um Hakeem bent Al-Harith and Fatima bent Al-Waleed along with Hind bent Utbah who owned slaves one of whom was arguably Wahshi Al-Habashi who was promised to be freed if he killed Hamza (Mu's uncle) which he had done.


    Um Kerfa's matter:

    She was a well recognized Arabian old woman; known for her wisdom and nobility. Arabs used to say (a proverb): "Greater than Um Kerfa," (when praising someone). She was ((brutally murdered)) by Mu's companions fulfilling his command after being criticized by her. She was split between two camels (tying her between them, and force them to run in opposite directions), beheaded her and placed her head on a stick (walked with it around the city)...

    This is mentioned in several sources. Among others:

    Biography of Ibn Hisham. V 2

    Fath Al-Bari "Grant of the Creator"  (by Ibn Hajar, the most valued commentary on Sahih

    Al-Bukhari).

    Attabaqat Al-Kubra "The Major Biography Liars" (by Ibn Sa'ad).

    Alkamel Fettareekh "The Complete in History" (by Ibn Al-Atheer).

    Al-Muntathem Fe Al-Tareekh "The Orderly in History" (By Ibn Al-Jawzy)

    Al-Estee'ab Fee Tamyeez Al-Ashaab "The Absorption in Discriminating between the

    Companions" (By Al-Nemri)

    Sharh Al-Seyar Al-Kabeer "The Big Explaination of Biographies" (By Al-Sarkhasi)

    Al-Bedaya Wa Al-Nehaya "The Beginning and the End" (By Ibn Kathir)




    According to the Quran itself, Arabs' divines were Goddesses, namely: Lat, 'Uzza, and Manat: (35/19):

    [19] Have ye seen Lat, and 'Uzza,

    [20] And another, the Third (goddess), Manat?


    Plus other verses.



    Even in the famous ((Mu'allaqat))5 "old long Arabic poems," women were so revered and they were the main topics in almost all of them.

    Al-Zawzany says in his commentary on Amr Ibn Hisham's poem:

    "...It demonstrates the situation of Arabs in terms of: religion, society, traditions, industries, and games; by telling us about the circumambulating of idols by women and about the religious dancing; and men being accompanied by women in the battles..."

    'Sharh Al-Mu'allaqat Al-Sab'e' (Explaining the Seven Mu'allaqat "poems", P 164)



    Quran (17:31 & 6:151) says also that some 'people of ignorance' used to kill both little boys AND girls; meaning that boys also were killed.



    Sajah Bent Alahrith who was highly reputed among her people; was a prominent poetess and scholar. She even claimed to be a prophet.

    Al-A'alam, By Al-Zarkali, Ch 3, P 78.



    Al-Khansa'a, who lived before Islam and eventually converted to Islam; was a well known poetess before and after converting. Many regard her as the greatest poet of elegiac poems in the Arabic literature.

    Poet Al-Nabighah Al-Dhubyani said about her: "She's the most skilled among both genies and humans." When Jarir was asked who the greatest poet was, he said: "I, had Al-Khansa'a not been there."

    Al-Estee'ab Fee Tamyeez Al-Ashaab 'The Absorption in Discriminating between the Companions' By Al-Nemri, V1, p 590.

    She was also well known for her wisdom and courage: http://www.chowk.com/articles/9415



    Many other Islamic and Arabic sources tackled the issue of women (such as poetess) before Islam, and showed how many women lived in luxury and power. The previous sources are just examples.



    According to Aisha, some women enjoyed some sort of polyandry (marrying more than a man):

    "There were four types of marriage during the ancient Arab period. One ... type of marriage was that a group of less than ten men would assemble and enter upon a woman, and all of them would have sexual relations with her. If she became pregnant and delivered a child and some days had passed after her delivery, she would send for all of them and none of them could refuse to come, and when they all gathered before her she would say to them "You (all) know what you have done and now I have given birth to a child. So it is your child O so and so! Naming whoever she liked and her child would follow him and he could not refuse to take him."

    Bukari, V 3, P 153-154


    Edited to clean up text and add download link.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #1 - December 22, 2008, 10:56 AM

    I don't deny my feelings that women were discriminated against even before Islam, but Muslims portray the image of that in an exaggerated way to show that they rescue females..!! (As victorious nations have been traditionally writing history in their favor, I believe) But, Did Islam really rescued women? Did it really help people treat both genders fairly? Regardless of what Quran really says, let's see how Muslims have been treating women since the 7th century;


    - Al-Qurtubi in his interpretation for 43:16 says:

    ??He is sacred and superior to having a child, and if an ignorant fancied that God really chose to have a child, then he should have assigned him the more supreme among the two genders, and why those people choose the noble gender and give him the ignoble one!! ?




    - Ibn Kathir for 16:57 says:

    ??then they gave him the more ignoble of the two shares of boys and girls??




    - For 43/18 he says:

    "It means that the woman is deficient, and this deficiency is rectified by wearing jewelry from childhood onward. And when she disputes, no consideration for her, for she is helpless and lacking...Thus, how can such (being) be attributed to God? ; Because a woman is deficient from the inside and outside, in image and meaning; and this deficiency in appearance is rectified by wearing jewelry and similar stuff..."

    Then he rendered some poems and proverbs that back his claims!
    ?




    - For 4/5:

    "Allah prohibited giving the unwise the freedom to do as they wish with wealth, which Allah has made as a means of support for people....AlDahhak reported that Ibn Abbas said: "To those weak of understanding make not over your  property," refers to children and women, and so said Ibn Mas'ood and Al-Hakam Ibn Uayayna and Alhasan.... Mujahed and Ekrima said they are the women.Aby Umama said: (The messenger of Allah PBUH said "women are unwise, except those who comply with their values.") Ali Ibn Abi Talha reported that Ibn Abbas said:"Do not deal with your wealth and what God has empowered you with and gave to you as a living, by giving it to your wife or daughter while you just keep watching what they hold, but keep your wealth and maintain it, and make sure it's you who spend on them from their clothings, supplies, and livelihood." Ibn Jarirs reported that Abi Mousa said: "three pray to Alalh and he does not answer them, a man who has an immoral wife and he did not divorce her......"

    Both Al-Tabari and Al-Qurtubi also mentioned the same sayings in their interpretations for this verse.




    - For 4/34, he says:

    ?Meaning that the man is the guardian of the woman, so he is her superior, senior, her commander, and disciplinarian if she goes astray. (because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other,) ie: men are better than women and the man is better than the woman, for that reason prophecies have been restricted to men; as well as the great King (commander and chief) as the Prophet said: "Never will succeed those people who grant their guardianship to a woman." (Al-Bukhari).

    (and because they spend of their property,) meaning: from dowries, allowances and expenditures that have been enjoined by Allah (for women from their men) in his book and the Sunna of his prophet, for the man is better than the woman in his soul and he has the merit (over her) as well as grace.
    ?




    - For 33/50:

    ?..So He unified the muscular form (used singular) for his (male?s) honor, and used plural for females as they are deficient, like in:?by the right side, and left ones? , ?will lead them from the darknesses to the light? and this has many analogies.?



    - No allowance for women divorced 3 times:

    Book 009, Number 3514: (Sahih Muslim): "Fatima bint Qais reported that her husband al-Makhzulmi divorced her and refused to pay her maintenance allowance. So she came to Allah's Messenger (may peace he upon him) and informed him, whereupon he said: There is no maintenance allowance for you, and you better go to the house of Ibn Umm Maktum and live with him for he is a blind man and you can put off your clothes in his house (i. e. you shall not face much difficulty in observing purdah there)."


    "...As for the female widow who is not pregnant, no allowance or accommodation for her because the marriage is over by the demise..."
    (Al-Mughni, By Ibn Qudama, Book of Allowances, P 22)




    - The young wife doesn't deserve the allowance until she is able to consummate the marriage:

    "...the rationale behind that is that a woman deserves the allowance from her husband provided that:
    She's old enough to consummate; if she's too young and can't bear it, then no allowance for her...
    "
    (Same source, P 25)




    - Even her clothing is not an obligatory for the husband except for once a year:

    "...Based on that, paying the clothing is once year for its the norm, and this should be by the beginning of the year for it is the due time; and if it wore out he has to buy another one, but if it wore out before the end of the year due to excessive usage, then he doesn't have to replace it...."
    ( Same source, P 8 )





    - They went even further by equating a woman to a "rented house;"

    "...Therefore, he doesn't have to buy medicines nor doctor's charge, because this is to fix the body. Thus it is not an obligatory, just like it is not required from the tenant to build what falls from the house."
    ٍ(Same source, P 6)

    Mentioned also in:

    (Rawdat Attalibeen "Garden of the Gnostics", by Al-Nawawi, V 9, P 50)

    (Attaj Wa Al-Ikleel "The Crown and Tiara" , by Al-Mawwaq, V 4, P 180)

    (Al-Muhathab, by Ibn Al-Barraj, V 2, P 346)





    - In terms, of urine, some indirectly considered boys' is less impure than girls' !

    "The urine of a baby boy should have water sprinkled upon it. The urine of a baby girl is to be washed off." (Abu Dawood, Nasai and Ibn Majah) also in (Bedayat Al-Mujtahed Wa Nehayat Al-Muqtased, By Ibn Rushd, V1 , P 61)



    "The urine of a female infant should be washed thoroughly; the male just sprinkle over."
     (Abu Dawood vol.1 book 1 no.374-379 p.97-98)





    - Major scholars say that fathers are allowed to force daughters to marry against their wills:

    "...Some people of Madinah say that it's allowed for a father to force his oldest daughter to marry, even if she hates it; and this is the saying of Malik, Al-Shafi'i, Ahmed, and Ishaq."
    (Tuhfat Al-Ahoothi,  By Al-Mubarakfoori, Book of marriage, P 755)

    Ibn Qudama in Al-Mughni also stated that men have the rights to return their divorced wives against their will:

    "Muslims have agreed that a husband owns the right to return the wife in the revocable divorce as long as she is in the prescribed periods (divorce period) without considering her acceptance, because God says: "And their husbands have the better right to take them back."
    (Al-Mughni, Book of Ila?a "Divorce by Swear", P 409)


    In Al-Mudawwana, it?s been reported that the seven prominent scholars said:

    ?A man has the maximum right to marry off his eldest daughter against her will, and if she is a previously married, then he can?t do so. Those seven are: Saeed Ibn Al-Musayyeb, Al-Qasim Ibn Muhammed, Abu Bakr Ibn Abdulrahman Ibn Al-Harith Ibn Hisham, Urwa Ibn Al-
    Zubair, Khareja Ibn Zayd Ibn Thabit, Ubaidullah Ibn Abdullah Ibn Utba Ibn Mas?ood, and Sulaiman Ibn Yasar.
    ?
    (Al-Mudawwana, ?The Large Log,? By Malik Ibn Anas ?collected and transmitted by Sahnun?) Ch 3, P 15)



    - Little female kids are to get married off..!

    Volume 7 of Bukhari, Book 62, Number 63:

    Narrated Sahl bin Sad:
    "While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself (for marriage) to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, "Marry her to me O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet asked (him), "Have you got anything?" He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet said, "Not even an iron ring?" He Sad, "Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half." The Prophet; said, "No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart)?" He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)." 'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse)."
    (Sahih Al-Bukhari)


    Al-Hafith Ibn Hajar comments:

    "This shows that her marriage before puberty is permissible." (Fath Al-Bari)


    Al-Qurtubi said so also in his interpretation of the verse.

    The vast majority of scholars and Imams of schools of thoughts agreed upon the validity of (children marriages);

    "...it is not for anyone to compel a mature girl to get married except for her father, also the too young girl. Malik said so and Abu Obaid and Al-Thawri,Ibn Abi Ya'la, Al-Shafi'i also (who included the grandfather)......"
    (Al-Mughni, V 6, P 487)

    Almost all other Imams of jurisprudence and the 4 schools talked about or touched upon this matter, including contemporary ones....Some are:

    (Al-Mabsoot, By Al-Sarkhasi, V4, P 212)
    (Bada'e Al-Sana'e Fee Tarteeb Al-Shara'e, By Al-Kasani, Book of marriage, P 318)
    (Tuhfat Al-Muhtaj Fee Sharh Al-Menhaj, By Al-Haitami, Book of Marriage, P 259)
    (Al-Muhalla, By Ibn Hazm, Ch 9, P 458-460)


    ٍShiits agree on even having (soft core intercourse) with the infant wife, as per

    AlKhumaini's book (Tahreer Al-Waseela "Liberating the Means", P 221)

    "It is prohibited to consummate the marriage with a wife before she is 9 year old, whether it is a temporary marriage or permanent; but as for the rest of pleasures such as foreplaying, hugs thighing, they're ok even with the infant (baby girl being breastfed); and if he consummates without having her lose her virginity, then nothing would be against him except for the sin (probably)..."

    This also was confirmed by a Sunni fatwa, (Fatwas #: 386, 23672, 23672, and 3907; by islamweb.net)


    Just as an example,  Fatwa 23672:

    Q: My family married me off when I was young to a young girl, and they warned me against getting close to her (sexual engaments). What is the sharea ruling on me and my wife, and what are the limits of my sexual pleasures with her? Thank you.

    A: If she can't bear sexual intercourse due to her young age, then having sex with her is forbidden because this harms her, and the prophet said: " no harm or reciprocating harm." Narrated by Ahmad, corrected by Al-Albani Yet he can foreplay, kiss, hug, and thigh her, and he has to avoid anus, because anal sex is forbidden, damned is the one who performs it.

    http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=A&Id=23672&Option=FatwaId



    Both Bukhari and Muslim included topics like:

    "Marrying off little Children" ; "Marrying off Children to older people;" in Sahih Muslim under book of "marriage" a section is called:

    "It is permissible for the father to give the hand of his daughter in marriage even when she is not fully grown up" ;

    In Bukhari there are two topics:

    "Marrying off young people to old people"  and: "A man giving his young children in marriage"

    Under this chapter and those topics, both Bukhari and Muslim reported Mu's marriage to Aisha when she 6 and consummating the marriage when she was 9..!





    - Women are no more than slaves for their husbands according to Mu himself:

    "If I were to order anyone to bow down to other than Allah, I would order the wife to do so for her husband. By the One who owns the soul of Muhammad,if a wife does not fulfill her obligations towards her husband, then she will not have fulfilled her obligations towards Allah."

    (Sunan Ibn Majah) + (Sunan Al-Tirmithi)


    Ibn Al-Jawzi said:
    "The woman shall know that she is like a slave to the husband, so she must not deal with herself or his money unless with his authorization; and she has to prioritize his right over hers and her relatives', and must be ready to satisfy him with herself by all means of cleanliness, and must not boast about her beauty or denounce him due to his ugliness (if he was ugly)."

    He also said:

    "The woman has to be patient with his harm like the patience of the slave."

    (Ahkam Annesa'a, "Women's commandments", P 210-211)


    And when she wants to leave home she has to:

    "She has to beware of going out no matter how able she is; if she escapes from rift, people won't. Thus, if she has to go out then she has to take his permission and be in a scruffy situation; and choose her way in the vacant areas, not the roads nor the shops; and must be careful not to let her voice heard, and walk in the sideway not the middle."
    Same source.



    - Besides allowing the man to beat up his wife, some (prominent) scholars went further by saying things such as: Muhammad hated that:
    ?The man gets asked about the reasons of hitting his wife, except if a need arises.?

    (Zad Al-Ma?ad ?Provisions of the Hereafter?, Ibn Al-Qayyem, Ch 2, P 255)
    + (Sunan Abudawood).




    - Ibn Al-Qayyem also drew an analogy between a woman and the ground by saying:

    ??.So he interpreted the woman as a ground, for they are both to be treaded.?
    (Same source, Ch 3, P 346)



    - Some also believe that:

    ??Man is not allowed to get cleansed by a woman?s remnant (of water), and a woman is allowed to do so by his remnant??

    Which one is considered cleaner (less impure)..!

    (Bedayat Al-Mujtahed Wa Nehayat Al-Muqtased, By Ibn Rushd, Ch 1, P 23)



    - Many also believe that women have to comply with their husbands? needs on bed (no matter what):

    "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sex) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning."

    (Bukhari & Muslim)

    ??By the One who owns the soul of Muhammad, a wife does not fulfill God?s right until she fulfills her husband?s, even if he asks her (to bed) while she is riding a little camel, she must not refuse."
    (Sunan Ibn-Majah)

    ??if a man calls his wife to fulfill his needs, she must come, even if she is by the stove?
    Sunan AlTirmithi.
    Mentioned also in (Ahkam Annesa, P 210)





    - Ibn Al-Jawzi in his ?Ahkam Annesa?a? says:

    "treating a woman tenderly so that antipathy does not occur, while affirming his prestige so that he does not lose sanctity with her. And he must not tell her the amount of money he possesses, or tell a secret he does not want to be disclosed. And he must not give her a lot of grants and presents." P 223



    - Aqiqa (slaughtering an animal for the newborn) is also another instance of unjust, for many clerics believe that its 2 animals for a boy, and only one for a girl:

    Ibn Abbas said: ?'For a girl an ewe and for a boy two ewes.?
    According to Abudawood.

    ?For a maiden one ewe and for a boy two.(Tirmithi and Ibn Majah)



    ?The Aqiqa of the girl to be one ewe and of the boy two.? (Ahmed, Al- Shafi, and other?s)


    Ibn Al-Qayyem says in his ?Tuhfat Al-Mawdood, P 53 and 54)
    :
    ?This is a religious law. Allah differentiated between the male and female, and made the female receives half of a male?s portion in inheritance, blood money (ransoms), witnesses, slavery freeing, and aqiqah?..?

    He also says in (Zad Al-Ma?ad, Ch 2, P 331):
    ?Allah favored males over females as he says: ?and no wise is the male like the female.??




    - They believe that women do not have to be educated, except for a small portion that would ensure authentic performance of Islamic rituals; ??If she had a father or a brother or a husband or a kin (mahram) to teach her the rituals and how to perform the duties; that is enough for her. If not (not available) she can ask and learn from clerics without khulwa (being with hem/them without a mahram), and she has to confine to the required amount..?
    (Same source, P 102)

    - It is known that the diyya (blood money, ransom) of a woman is half that of a man, based on Quran and Hadith?.;

    ??And Al-Zuhri said: ?The husband does not get killed for his wife, because he owned her according to the marriage contract (agreement), thus she is like a concubine..;??
    Ibn Qudama commented:
    ?We care about the general meaning of the text, and because they are both equal, each one should be punished by accusing his/her companion then he/she get killed. His saying ?he owned her? is not true, because she is free, but he owned the benefit of pleasure, so she is like a tenant; and that?s why he has to pay diyya, and her legal ones (legal Islamically) inherit her, and he inherits his part.  And if someone else killed her, then diyya is for her inheritors unlike the concubine.?

    (Al-Mughni, By Ibn Qudama, Book of Jirah ?injuries?, P 21)


    Ibn Qudama also says regarding diyyat and qasas (retribution):

    ?The husband does not get punished if his wife got destroyed from the legitimate discipline when she goes astray, neither does the instructor if he legitimately disciplines his pupil, and so said Malik?.?



    - According to Bukhari and others: ?Whoever is killed while protecting his property then he is a martyr.?

    But, Abdurrahman Ibn Al-Qasim says in AlMudawwana when asked whether those men who are killed while defending their wives are martyrs or not:

    ?I do not recall anything for Malik in this regard, and I don?t see them in the level of martyrs, and they are in a level of (criminals? killers)?
    ?Al-Mudawwana, Imam Malik, Ch 1, P 184?

    ??The prophet used to give two shares for horses, one for the man and none for women??
    (?Tareekh Al-Tabari, Ch 2, P 103?)
    *

    We find that:
    Protecting properties is more valued than protecting women.
    Protecting horses during battles is more valued than protecting women in the battle.

    - The 4th Caliph and Mu?s cousin and son in law ? Ali Ibn Abi Taleb -  said:

    ?The entire woman is an evil. And what is worse is that it is a necessary evil.?

    (?Nahj Al-Balagha,? ?Methodology of Eloquence,? By Al-Shareef Al-Radi, Ch of Short Proverbs, P 238)
    **



    Edited to clean up text.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #2 - December 22, 2008, 10:57 AM

    - Even the so called (moderate) theologian, jurist, philosopher Al-Ghazali known as (Hujjat Al-Islam) "Proof of Islam" struck women in his famous (Ehya'a Oloom Al-deen) "Reviving the Religious Sciences." In it he listed several hadiths and athars (sayings of the companions and successors)  that clearly discriminate against women:


    -"The bath is forbidden for the women of my nation" Mustadrak Al-Hakim



    "The lands of Ajams (Non-Arabs) will be open for you and you will find there houses called "baths", men shall not enter it except with an izar (waist sheet), and forbid women from entering it except for the sick and the one who is in the period after delivery (nufas)" Sunan Ibn Majah

    -Saeed Ibn Al-Musayab said: "Allah has never sent a prophet in the past without Iblees (Lucifer) being their to distroy him using women, and nothing is more fearful to me than them, and there is no house that I enter in Medina except mine and my dauhter's where I take baths on Fridays and then leave. Some say that Satan tells the woman: "You are half of my army, you are my arrow that I shoot by so that I don't miss, and you are my secret position, my messenger when I need you." Thus, half of his army is lust, and half is anger, and the greatest lust is the lust for women."


    -The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction (fitna) more harmful to men than women." Bukhari and Muslim

    He also said: "Fear the affliction (fitna) of this world and the fitna of women for the first fitna of people of Israel was from women." Muslim


    - Saeed Ibn Al-Musayeb said: "Never did Iblees give up with someone, and did not approach him through women."



    - The Prophet said: "Women are satan's net, and if it were not for this lust, women would not have power over men" Asfahani in (Al-targheeb Wa Al- Tarheeb)"Awareness & Apprehension"


    In addition to that, Al-Ghazali's general views on women are found in different pages of the book as follows:

    1- The woman has to stay home and keep herself busy by sewing, and should rarely leave her home.

    2- She must not learn reading and writing, and not talk with her neiboghors or visit them except for the absolute necessity.

    3- She has to take care of her husband and reserve his right in his presence and absence, and her top concern must be to please him.

    4- She must not leave home without her husband's permission, and if permitted, she must go out modestly, and wear damaged clothes and choose the abandoned roads.

    5- She has to avoid markets, and must not let a man hear her voice.

    6- She must not converse with her husband's friends even in the necessary situations.

    7- Her prime concern must be her honor, home, prayer, and fasting.

    8- If any of her husband's friends visit home in his absence, then she must not open the

    door for him, and not talk to him in order to maintain her honor and her husband's honor.

    9- She must be content with the conjugal duties assigned to her by her husband.

    10- She has to be clean and ready to quench her husband's sexual desire anytime.


    He also included the following hadiths and Aathaars:

    The husband has the right if he desired his wife and sought her to yield herself to him while she is on the back of a camel, then she must not stop him.


    Never will succeed those people who grant their guardianship to a woman.
    And Omar had rebuked his wife when she argued with him and said:
    You are nothing but a toy in the side of the house when we need you, otherwise set as you are,

    Therefore, they have evil and they have weakness, for the politic and harshness are the cure of evil, and medication and mercy are cure of weakness.


    Al-Radirini said: The righteous wife is not from earth, for she prepares you for the judgment day, and this is done by administering the home and fulfilling the lust.

    Al-Hassan said: I swear to God, Allah will throw the man who complies with his wife's sentiment into hell.

    And he said PBUH: "The righteous woman among women is like a white crow among crows."



    Al-Ghazali also in his book:

    (Al-Tibr Al-Masbook Fi Naseehat Al-Mulook) "The Forged Sword in Counseling Kings", said:

    ??And for these reasons that we mentioned, wise people must be merciful toward women, they must not wrong them or oppress them, for the woman is the man?s captive, and men must humor women because of their minds? deficiency, and due to this deficiency, no one is allowed to take their opinions or listen to what they say, and whoever depends on their judgments and adjusts himself based on their counsels is like the one in the aforementioned story.."


    - Al-Razi in his tafseer for Sura 4, verse 11:

    The man is more perfect than the woman physically and mentally and in religious positions, like: judiciary and leadership, and also a woman?s witness is half that of a man?s. Therefore, whoever is so, has to receive more blesses. Thirdly, the woman is deficient in mind and holds excessive lust. So if the assets are assigned to her, corruption would aggravate.




    Ibn Al-Arabi in his tafseer for Sura 4 Verse 24 says:

    ?That is a clear text that it?s called a ?pay,? and a proof that it?s for sexual benefits because what matches the benefit is called a ?pay.?

    This is well attested in several Islamic sources, for ex:

    Book 008, Number 3243:
    Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported: We were on an expedition with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and we had no women with us. We said: Should we not have ourselves castrated? He (the Holy Prophet) forbade us to do so He then granted us permission that we should contract temporary marriage for a stipulated period giving her a garment, and 'Abdullah then recited this verse: 'Those who believe do not make unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, and do not transgress. Allah does not like trangressers" (al-Qur'an, v. 87).
    Sahih Muslim.

    Book 008, Number 3249:
    Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of (tales or flour as a dower during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and durnig the time of Abu Bakr until 'Umar forbade it in the case of 'Amr b. Huraith.
    Sahih Muslim
    ?Contracting temporary marriages? in Arabic text is literally: ?having pleasure.?

    Al-Razi for the same verse comments:
    ?The 2nd opinion says that this verse is for the rules of ?marriage for pleasure,? a marriage by which a man rents a woman for known amount of assets and period of time, and engages in sexual intercourse; and it is agreed-upon that this was permissible in the beginning of Islam. It?s been narrated that the prophet ?PBUH? when he arrived in Mecca for his Umrah, women smartened themselves up, while his companions complained of long bachelorhood, so he said: ?get pleasure from these women.?

    From different parts of the fiqh based on the 4 schools, we get:
    ?The marriage contract is an ownership contract for getting benefit of the vulva and the rest of the wife?s body? ~Maliki~
    ?The most likely is that contracting the woman means getting benefit of her vulva.? ~Shafi?i~
    ?Thr right is for the man to get the pleasure, not the woman; meaning that the man is allowed to force the woman to get pleasured by her.? ~Hanafi~

    The same book says:
    ?If a man bought a concubine, then her sale contract means having sex with her implicitly, and as it is obvious this is not a marriage contract. It is a contract of purchasing a concubine to own her intentionally and having pleasure by her implicitly, so it is a purchase contract, not marriage one.?




    - Al-Razi for 30/21 says:

    In this verse many issues:

    1. His saying: ?He created for you..? is a proof that women are created just like the creation of animals and plants and other benefits, as Allah said ?It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth? and this implies that it is not created to worship and perform duties, so we say that creating women is among the graces on us, and creating them for us and charging them with completing the grace on us and not to assign them with duties like we (men) are assigned, and this is in terms of conveyance, commanding, and meaning. As of conveyance, it?s here and other places. Regarding the commandment, because the woman is not obligated with many duties as the man is, while meaning it?s because the woman is a weak creature and inept, just like the lad, but the lad is not charged, thus it?s appropriate for women to be not qualified to be charged. Yet, the grace on us would not have been completed if she is not obliged to fear the torture so that she obeys her husband and refrain from the haraam, otherwise, corruption would arise.


    Edited to clean up text.





    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #3 - December 22, 2008, 10:58 AM

    Kindly note that:

    -I have tried to minimize quoting from Hadiths or Quranic verses, because this was intended to spot some light on the effect of Muhammad on elevating/degrading women status.

    -Generally, most books and resources have general consensus among Sunni Muslims and their scholars.

    -I tried to avoid any misleading translation of the existing ones (translations), and thus I did translate most of the above myself.

    -Some books titles in Arabic are hard to be translated into English; elaboration by Arabic speakers is welcome.

    -I do believe that Quran itself along with Hadith do demean women on many levels.

    -I welcome anybody?s criticism or correction.




    References:


    1.Tareekh Al-Arab Qabl Al-Islam, Jawad Ali
    2.Biography of Ibn Ishaq, and Ibn Hisham (AKA Seerat Rasool Allah)
    3.Al-Tabaqat Al-Kubra ?The Major Biography Liars,? Ibn Sa?ad.
    4.Al-Estee?ab ?The Absorption?, Ibn Abd Al-Ber.
    5.Tareekh Al-Umam wa Al-Mulook (AKA Tareekh Al-Tabari) (History of Nations and Kings), Ibn Jareer Al-Tabari.
    6.Fath Al-Bari "Grant of the Creator,? Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar.
    7.Alkamel Fettareekh "The Complete in History," by Ibn Al-Atheer.
    8.Al-Muntathem Fe Al-Tareekh "The Orderly in History," By Ibn Al-Jawzy.
    9.Sharh Al-Seyar Al-Kabeer "The Big Explaination of Biographies," By Al-Sarkhasi.
    10.Al-Bedaya Wa Al-Nehaya "The Beginning and the End," By Ibn Kathir.
    11.Sharh Al-Mu'allaqat Al-Sab?e, ?Explaining the Seven Mu'allaqat "poems", By Al-Zawzani.
    12.Al-A?alam, By Al-Zarkali
    13.Al-Estee?ab Fee Tamyeez Al-Ashaab, "The Absorption in Discriminating between the Companions" , By Al-Nemri
    14.Al-Mughni, By Ibn Qudama
    15.Rawdat Attalibeen "Garden of the Gnostics", by Al-Nawawi
    16.Attaj Wa Al-Ikleel "The Crown and Tiara" , By Al-Mawwaq
    17.Al-Muhathab, by Ibn Al-Barraj
    18.Bedayat Al-Mujtahed Wa Nehayat Al-Muqtased, By Ibn Rush
    19.Tuhfat Al-Ahoothi,  By Al-Mubarakfoori
    20.(Al-Mudawwana, ?The Large Log,? By Malik Ibn Anas ?collected and transmitted by Sahnun?)
    21.Al-Mabsoot, By Al-Sarkhasi
    22.Al-Muhalla, By Ibn Hazm
    23.Tahreer Al-Waseela "Liberating the Means,? By Al-Khumaiani
    24.Ahkam Annesa'a, "Women's commandments,? By Ibn Al-Jawzi
    25.Tuhfat Al-Mawdood, By Ibn Al-Qayyem
    26.Zad Al-Ma?ad, By Ibn Al-Qayyem
    27.Ehya'a Oloom Al-deen, "Reviving the Religious Sciences," By Al-Ghazali
    28. Al-Tibr Al-Masbook Fi Naseehat Al-Mulook) "The Forged Sword in Counseling Kings,? By Al-Ghazali
    29.(Nahj Al-Balagha) ?Methodology of Eloquence,? By Al-Shareef Al-Radi
    30.http://www.chowk.com/articles/9415
    31.http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=A&Id=23672&Option=FatwaId
    32.http://www.islamweb.net
    33.Sahih Al-Bukhari
    34.Sahih Muslim
    35.Sunan Abi-Dawood
    36.Sunan Al-Tirmithi
    37.Sunan Ibn Majah
    38.Sunan A-Nasa?i
    39. Tafsirs of Quran
    40.The Quran




    Footnotes:

    1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahiliyyah
    2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Aus
    3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Khazraj
    4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_pledge_at_al-Aqabah
    5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%27allaqat


    * About booties and how to divide them !

    ** This book receives general consensus among Shiites and their scholars, few Muslims as well regard it as authentic.








    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #4 - December 22, 2008, 11:05 AM

    Comprehensive. Good job.  Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #5 - December 22, 2008, 11:39 AM

    Thank you Emerald for your informative posts!  Now I've more books to put on my wish list!

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #6 - December 22, 2008, 11:44 AM

    Quote
    9- She must be content with the conjugal duties assigned to her by her husband.


    I thought a woman could divorce her hubby if he wasn't satisfying her sexual needs?  How can she be content if the conjugal duties assigned to her (isn't that romantic) are once a month or so?  Cheesy

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #7 - December 22, 2008, 12:54 PM

    Some excellent research Emerald!
    Thanks.
    Z
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #8 - December 22, 2008, 03:24 PM

    Hi Emerald,

    I barely skimmed through your article, but I'm sure it's well researched judging from the amount of references...
    I'd hate to see this disappear into the depths of the forum's database, so I was just wondering if you could type this up in OpenOffice and export it as a PDF document (which is an integrated function of the software.) A PDF can be spread more easily across the internet and osmanthus could perhaps list your article and any other future articles (from other ppl as well) in a special section of this site. Just an idea. Afro

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #9 - December 22, 2008, 03:34 PM

    Good Job, good research.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #10 - December 22, 2008, 04:59 PM

    Excellent post Emerald. BTW have you read 'Why I Am Not A Muslim' by Ibn Warraq? He has a very large chapter about women in the book and he has some excellent quotes from the Hadiths, Quran, scholars and many other people about the appalling treatment of women.
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #11 - December 23, 2008, 06:02 AM

    Thx everyone, 

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #12 - December 23, 2008, 06:03 AM

    Hi Emerald,

    I barely skimmed through your article, but I'm sure it's well researched judging from the amount of references...
    I'd hate to see this disappear into the depths of the forum's database, so I was just wondering if you could type this up in OpenOffice and export it as a PDF document (which is an integrated function of the software.) A PDF can be spread more easily across the internet and osmanthus could perhaps list your article and any other future articles (from other ppl as well) in a special section of this site. Just an idea. Afro

    =============

    Working on that  Wink

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #13 - December 23, 2008, 06:04 AM

    Excellent post Emerald. BTW have you read 'Why I Am Not A Muslim' by Ibn Warraq? He has a very large chapter about women in the book and he has some excellent quotes from the Hadiths, Quran, scholars and many other people about the appalling treatment of women.

    ============

    I have a copy of the book, Warraq is good...but I have some issues with citations..

    Thx  Smiley

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #14 - December 23, 2008, 09:42 AM

    Excellent post Emerald. BTW have you read 'Why I Am Not A Muslim' by Ibn Warraq? He has a very large chapter about women in the book and he has some excellent quotes from the Hadiths, Quran, scholars and many other people about the appalling treatment of women.

    ============

    I have a copy of the book, Warraq is good...but I have some issues with citations..

    Thx  Smiley

    Fair enough. He is quite biased in his book which lets him down unfortunately.
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #15 - December 23, 2008, 09:45 AM

    Hi Emerald,

    I barely skimmed through your article, but I'm sure it's well researched judging from the amount of references...
    I'd hate to see this disappear into the depths of the forum's database, so I was just wondering if you could type this up in OpenOffice and export it as a PDF document (which is an integrated function of the software.) A PDF can be spread more easily across the internet and osmanthus could perhaps list your article and any other future articles (from other ppl as well) in a special section of this site. Just an idea. Afro

    Yup. Can do. This software comes with a downloads manager so we just put any articles in that and people can grab them off the site easily. I think I'll sticky the thread for now too.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #16 - December 23, 2008, 10:11 AM

    That was brilliant and damning! Better than the trolls who keep rehashing the same old crap. You kick arse Mr. Emerald, and so does this website Smiley

    Looking forward to the PDF Smiley

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #17 - December 24, 2008, 08:10 AM

    That was brilliant and damning! Better than the trolls who keep rehashing the same old crap. You kick arse Mr. Emerald, and so does this website Smiley

    Looking forward to the PDF Smiley

    ============

    Thx for your words  Smiley


    PDF is coming, soon.  Afro

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #18 - December 24, 2008, 01:47 PM

    Quote from: Emerald
    "The urine of a baby boy should have water sprinkled upon it. The urine of a baby girl is to be washed off." (Abu Dawood, Nasai and Ibn Majah) also in (Bedayat Al-Mujtahed Wa Nehayat Al-Muqtased, By Ibn Rushd, V1 , P 61)

    Just when you think it can't possibly get any worse, one of the all-time tried and trusted greats, Shaikh Muhammad al-Munajjid, proposes some possible reasons:

    Quote
    Some of them said: the reason for that is that it is easier, because usually the male is carried a lot, and people rejoice over him and love him more than the female, and his urine comes out from a narrow opening, so when he urinates it spreads. Because he is carried a lot and washing his urine would be too difficult, so this concession was made.


    Maybe I should have posted this in the "Taking The Piss" thread?

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #19 - December 24, 2008, 01:55 PM

    Quote from: Emerald
    "The urine of a baby boy should have water sprinkled upon it. The urine of a baby girl is to be washed off." (Abu Dawood, Nasai and Ibn Majah) also in (Bedayat Al-Mujtahed Wa Nehayat Al-Muqtased, By Ibn Rushd, V1 , P 61)

    Just when you think it can't possibly get any worse, one of the all-time tried and trusted greats, Shaikh Muhammad al-Munajjid, proposes some possible reasons:

    Quote
    Some of them said: the reason for that is that it is easier, because usually the male is carried a lot, and people rejoice over him and love him more than the female, and his urine comes out from a narrow opening, so when he urinates it spreads. Because he is carried a lot and washing his urine would be too difficult, so this concession was made.


    Maybe I should have posted this in the "Taking The Piss" thread?



    Oh, yes!  Our friend Mr al-Munajjid over at Islamqa.  They just LOVE women over on that site!...NOT!
    Is it really that difficult for some Muslims to put their baby boys down on the ground and give them a proper washing??? finmad

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #20 - December 24, 2008, 02:08 PM

    Quote
    Some of them said: the reason for that is that it is easier, because usually the male is carried a lot, and people rejoice over him and love him more than the female, and his urine comes out from a narrow opening, so when he urinates it spreads. Because he is carried a lot and washing his urine would be too difficult, so this concession was made.


    ===========


    Hmmmm,  smartie shaikh.... wacko

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #21 - December 24, 2008, 02:11 PM

    Quote
    Some of them said: the reason for that is that it is easier, because usually the male is carried a lot, and people rejoice over him and love him more than the female, and his urine comes out from a narrow opening, so when he urinates it spreads. Because he is carried a lot and washing his urine would be too difficult, so this concession was made.


    ===========


    Hmmmm,  smartie shaikh.... wacko


    In morocco they slaughter 1 sheep for the birth of the girl and 2 sheep for the birth of a boy, so he is right about them rejoicing over boys more.  finmad

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #22 - December 24, 2008, 02:23 PM

    Quote
    Some of them said: the reason for that is that it is easier, because usually the male is carried a lot, and people rejoice over him and love him more than the female, and his urine comes out from a narrow opening, so when he urinates it spreads. Because he is carried a lot and washing his urine would be too difficult, so this concession was made.


    ===========


    Hmmmm,  smartie shaikh.... wacko


    In morocco they slaughter 1 sheep for the birth of the girl and 2 sheep for the birth of a boy, so he is right about them rejoicing over boys more.  finmad

    ============


    Yeah, that's common all over the Muslims countries and between Muslims;

    this sheep thingie ,called "Aqeeqa", is mentioned in the main post, so frustrating.   wacko

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Muslims......& Women! (download available)
     Reply #23 - May 03, 2009, 03:17 AM

    I have a question: A  muslim friend of mine, told me Hijab was traditional dress in the Arabic Peninsula only for free women in the times before Mohammed, in order to keep them safe from other men, and avoid their husbands jealousy. Slaves were not allowed to use Hijab, because "merchandise" should be at sight. Therefore Hijab was sort of a "class privilege", a dress which showed a woman was free and not a slave (we must remind most slaves were actually sexual slaves)

    He also said there is no place in the Quran in which it is said that women should use it, but it only says women should cover their breasts, bottom, sexual organs and arm pits.

    So the Hijab was not a religious issue but a social issue, a tradition in Arabia which was extended alongside all Muslim world and now most Muslim women believe it is Allah's commandment that they dress Hijab or veil or burka or what ever.

    DO you have information about this?

     thnkyu
  • Re: Muslims......& Women! (download available)
     Reply #24 - May 03, 2009, 07:48 AM

    I have a question: A  muslim friend of mine, told me Hijab was traditional dress in the Arabic Peninsula only for free women in the times before Mohammed, in order to keep them safe from other men, and avoid their husbands jealousy. Slaves were not allowed to use Hijab, because "merchandise" should be at sight. Therefore Hijab was sort of a "class privilege", a dress which showed a woman was free and not a slave (we must remind most slaves were actually sexual slaves)

    He also said there is no place in the Quran in which it is said that women should use it, but it only says women should cover their breasts, bottom, sexual organs and arm pits.

    So the Hijab was not a religious issue but a social issue, a tradition in Arabia which was extended alongside all Muslim world and now most Muslim women believe it is Allah's commandment that they dress Hijab or veil or burka or what ever.

    DO you have information about this?

     thnkyu


    It's true that the verses in the Qur'an are open to dispute (what a surprise) and some argue that it does not mean covering the head.

    But the hadith literature refers to covering the head as necessary for a girl once she reaches puberty and so as a result it has been given religious significance.
  • Re: Muslims......& Women!
     Reply #25 - May 03, 2009, 09:07 AM

    Quote
    Some of them said: the reason for that is that it is easier, because usually the male is carried a lot, and people rejoice over him and love him more than the female, and his urine comes out from a narrow opening, so when he urinates it spreads. Because he is carried a lot and washing his urine would be too difficult, so this concession was made.


    ===========


    Hmmmm,  smartie shaikh.... wacko


    In morocco they slaughter 1 sheep for the birth of the girl and 2 sheep for the birth of a boy, so he is right about them rejoicing over boys more.  finmad


    If I were making a 'sacrifice' for my kids being born....   I'd rescue two dogs from the pound for a boy, and two for a girl.  I think because I wouldn't have wanted two sheep killed on my account if it were for me. 

    (I eat meat I know I'm hypocritical!)
  • Re: Muslims......& Women! (download available)
     Reply #26 - May 03, 2009, 09:46 AM

    I have a question: A  muslim friend of mine, told me Hijab was traditional dress in the Arabic Peninsula only for free women in the times before Mohammed, in order to keep them safe from other men, and avoid their husbands jealousy. Slaves were not allowed to use Hijab, because "merchandise" should be at sight. Therefore Hijab was sort of a "class privilege", a dress which showed a woman was free and not a slave (we must remind most slaves were actually sexual slaves)

    He also said there is no place in the Quran in which it is said that women should use it, but it only says women should cover their breasts, bottom, sexual organs and arm pits.

    So the Hijab was not a religious issue but a social issue, a tradition in Arabia which was extended alongside all Muslim world and now most Muslim women believe it is Allah's commandment that they dress Hijab or veil or burka or what ever.

    DO you have information about this?

     thnkyu

    It used to be a cultural tradition but then Umar (I think it was him anyway) noticed Mohammed's wife Sauda having a pee (no idea what he was doing this for) and told her he recognised her. He then asked Mohammed to make it obligatory for women to veil themselves. According to this we can derive that women should not be recognised by others.

    This is all from a hadith. I cant remember which one it was but if anyone else knows it feel free to post it.
  • Re: Muslims......& Women! (download available)
     Reply #27 - May 03, 2009, 09:48 AM

    Are you sure she wasn't having a crap? The distinction is important. This could start another Sunni/Shia divide.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslims......& Women! (download available)
     Reply #28 - May 03, 2009, 09:55 AM

    It's Sahih Bukhari 8:74:257

    "Narrated 'Aisha:
    (the wife of the Prophet) 'Umar bin Al-Khattab used to say to Allah's Apostle "Let your wives be veiled" But he did not do so. The wives of the Prophet used to go out to answer the call of nature at night only at Al-Manasi.' Once Sauda, the daughter of Zam'a went out and she was a tall woman. 'Umar bin Al-Khattab saw her while he was in a gathering, and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda!" He ('Umar) said so as he was anxious for some Divine orders regarding the veil (the veiling of women.) So Allah revealed the Verse of veiling. (Al-Hijab; a complete body cover excluding the eyes)."

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslims......& Women! (download available)
     Reply #29 - May 03, 2009, 09:56 AM

    Are you sure she wasn't having a crap? The distinction is important. This could start another Sunni/Shia divide.

    that guy has some strange fetishes Cheesy
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