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Theme Changer

 Topic: Khidr / Elijah

 (Read 4272 times)
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  • Khidr / Elijah
     OP - December 15, 2008, 05:46 PM

    poop

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Khidr / Elijah
     Reply #1 - December 15, 2008, 06:51 PM

    Sorry, it's beyond my realm of expertise but it's quite interesting, hope someone else here can point you to other sources.  Afro

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Khidr / Elijah
     Reply #2 - December 22, 2008, 06:43 AM

    That's a pretty interesting find and quite damning of Islam. That is to say, of it's claim of scriptural purity. I came across another instance of this, which I think we already discussed, which is the suspicious similarity to the story of Abraham in Genesis, chapter 18, verses 22-33 to the story of Muhammad bargaining with Allah to reduce the number of prayers Muslims have to pray.

    I think these things are part of what makes religion so interesting: seeing how different ideas and stories and theological points are transmitted by different people and manifest themselves in different ways in different religions, and even within different sects of the same religion.

    Though it has no bridge,
    The cloud climbs up to heaven;
    It does not seek the aid
    Of Gautama's sutras.

    - Ikkyu
  • Re: Khidr / Elijah
     Reply #3 - December 23, 2008, 10:37 PM

    Hm, I didn't see your reply til today.

    That's a pretty interesting find and quite damning of Islam. That is to say, of it's claim of scriptural purity.

    I'm not sure if it's damning yet, gotta be sure which one came first  Afro.

    I came across another instance of this, which I think we already discussed, which is the suspicious similarity to the story of Abraham in Genesis, chapter 18, verses 22-33 to the story of Muhammad bargaining with Allah to reduce the number of prayers Muslims have to pray.

    It (Abraham's bargaining for Sodom) is in the Qur'an, but there is only a scant reference to it.

    Quote from: Qur'an 11:74
    Then... he (Abraham) began to plead with Us for the people of Lot.

    Ibn Kathir says,

    Quote from: Tafsir Ibn Kathir
    It is mentioned by Sa'eed bin Jubair, Suddi, Ibn Is-haq and Qatadah:
     
    Ibrahim said to them, "Will you destroy a town that has three hundred believers in it?'' They (the angels) said, "No."
    (With the addition of "Two hundred?" in Qisas Al-Anbiya (Stories of the Prophets))
    He then said, "Will you destroy a town that has two hundred believers in it'?' They said, "No.''
    He said, "Will you destroy a town that has forty believers in it'?' They said, "No.''
    He then said, "Thirty?'' ("Fourteen?" in Qisas) They still replied, "No.''
    This continued until he said, "Five'?' They said, "No.''
    Then he said, "What if there were a single believer in the town, would you destroy it?'' They said, "No.''
    With this, Ibrahim said, "But Lot is in it." They said, "We know better who is there, we will verily save him and his family, except his wife..." Qur'an 29:32

    He then goes on to quote from Genesis, which many dislike for his quoting the Jews all the time (them and their corrupt scripture! Cheesy)

    I think these things are part of what makes religion so interesting: seeing how different ideas and stories and theological points are transmitted by different people and manifest themselves in different ways in different religions, and even within different sects of the same religion.

    Yup. Smiley

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Khidr / Elijah
     Reply #4 - November 07, 2009, 03:28 PM

    Muslims wouldn't really see these things as a problem. They would just say that the Quran has come as the criterion and to rectify the changes that the Jews and Christians made to their books. So stories which are similar or have different characters etc, wouldn't bother them.
  • Re: Khidr / Elijah
     Reply #5 - November 07, 2009, 04:23 PM

    I had heard the story of Khidr came from a Jewish source.

    There is little doubt that Muhammad took a great deal from the Jews of the Hijaz. (Cook and Crone saw Islam as a form of Jewish heresy to begin with.)
  • Re: Khidr / Elijah
     Reply #6 - November 07, 2009, 04:50 PM

    I had heard the story of Khidr came from a Jewish source.

    There is little doubt that Muhammad took a great deal from the Jews of the Hijaz. (Cook and Crone saw Islam as a form of Jewish heresy to begin with.)


    Sure, we would agree with that and take those theories on board. The muslims won't see it that way though. They will always see the Quran as abbrogating and correcting whatever the Jews and Christians have written.

    Hass, have you read the books by Cook and Crone?
  • Re: Khidr / Elijah
     Reply #7 - November 07, 2009, 09:30 PM

    Sure, we would agree with that and take those theories on board. The muslims won't see it that way though. They will always see the Quran as abbrogating and correcting whatever the Jews and Christians have written.

    Hass, have you read the books by Cook and Crone?


    No, though I attended lectures by Cook as he was at SOAS when I was a student there. I was aware of what he and Crone said though.

    I did read Wansbrough's "Quranic Studies" - though please don't ask me questions about it. Apart from the fact it was 30 years ago - it was a extremely heavy going and unmemorable. He seemed to be showing off his mastery of Greek and Latin and used references to classical texts I was unfamiliar with. In short he said that the Qur'an was formed after a long oral evolution where it was improved and refined by Muhammad's followers before being crystallized into a written text and he compared the process to Ancient Greek Oral poetry.
  • Re: Khidr / Elijah
     Reply #8 - November 07, 2009, 09:49 PM

    No, though I attended lectures by Cook as he was at SOAS when I was a student there. I was aware of what he and Crone said though.

    I did read Wansbrough's "Quranic Studies" - though please don't ask me questions about it. Apart from the fact it was 30 years ago - it was a extremely heavy going and unmemorable. He seemed to be showing off his mastery of Greek and Latin and used references to classical texts I was unfamiliar with. In short he said that the Qur'an was formed after a long oral evolution where it was improved and refined by Muhammad's followers before being crystallized into a written text and he compared the process to Ancient Greek Oral poetry.


    I won't question you on that, but we are having a discussion about oral transmission on another thread. You might be able to shed some light on what a mutawatir hadith is on that thread.
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