Khidr / Elijah

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[awais]

I've recently discovered something that no one has made the connection of yet, so far as I know.

Are you familiar with the Qur'an's story of Moses and Khidr? It's in Surah 18, Al-Kahf, ayaat 60-82.

Moses loses his patience with bani Israel, telling them "I am smarter than all of you! So listen to me!" So Allah hears this and wants to show Moses he isn't, and that he should be humble and ascribe all knowledge to Him. So He sets him on a journey with Joshua bin Nun to find the man who is smarter than him, Khidr.

Moses and Josh follow Allah's instructions on how to find him and do. Moses introduces himself, "I am Moses", "Moses of bani Israel?" Khidr asks. "Yes, and I have come to seek instruction from you." Khidr says, "You will not be able to learn from you, you will lose patience.", Moses says, "Insha Allah you will find me patient." Khidr says, "Then follow me, and do not ask me about anything until I explain it to you myself."

So Moses follows Khidr. Moses and Khidr go to the beach, where sailors recognize Khidr and offer him and Moses a free ride to the other side. On the boat, Khidr removes one of the planks. Moses freaks, "They offer us a free ride and you scuttle their ship to drown them! Evil!". Khidr, "I told you, you wouldn't be able to be patient with me." Moses apologizes and promises to keep patient. They continue on.

On shore Khidr walked up to a boy playing with other boys, and pulled his head of his body with his hands. "You kill and innocent little boy! Evil!". "I told you, you can't keep patient with me." Moses apologizes again and they continue.

They continue on into town. Khidr asks for some food, but the townspeople refused him. Leaving the town, Khidr fixes one of it's crumbling walls. "You do good for people who didn't help us, without asking a wage!? "

Khidr says, "This is the end of me and you, you cannot keep patient. Now I will explain that which you couldn't keep patient.

"As for the ship, it belonged to poor fishermen. So I wished to make it defective, because there was a king behind them stealing ships.

"As for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would oppress them by rebellion and disbelief. So we intended that Allah should replace him with a son who would be righteous.

"As for the wall, it belonged to two orphans, and under it treasure, inheritance from their righteous father.

"I did not act of my own will. That is the explanation of that which you couldn't keep patient."

This same story is reflected in Judaism, with the prophet Elijah in the place of Khidr, and Rabbi Joshua ben Levi as Moses, with a few differences.

One day, when Elijah was on his errands of mercy, he was met by Rabbi Joshua. Although usually unseen by anyone, unless the Prophet wants to be seen and recognized, Rabbi Joshua saw and recognized Elijah and greeted him respectfully. Then he begged the Prophet to take him along on his journey.

"Where I go," Elijah replied, "there must be no human companion. Humans do not see everything, and what they see they do not always understand. Pray, be not curious, let me go."

Elijah's words only strengthened Rabbi Joshua's desire to accompany the Prophet and benefit from his companionship. The sage continued to plead: "I promise that I shalt not weary you with questions and shall in no way interfere with your mission. Take me with you, Master." sage: "Remember, as soon as you will begin asking me questions to explain that which you will not understand, our ways must part."

Towards evening the weary old travelers came to an old shaky hut of a poor couple. Both the man and his wife were sitting outside their home. When they saw the two travelers they rose and, in the true fashion of the children of Abraham, they welcomed the strangers to their humble home. What little food they had in the house, they gladly shared with the guests, and offered them their beds for rest. They themselves made their beds on the straw in the cow-shed that housed their cow. The cow was their only valuable possession, for its milk was their whole source of income.

In the morning the Prophet and sage took leave from the kindly couple, as soon as they were out of sight, the Prophet Elijah prayed that the cow of the poor couple should fall dead. Rabbi Joshua was terribly shocked and upset. "Why should you repay for the kindness and hospitality of these people with such ingratitude?!" he wanted to exclaim. But he remembered the Prophet's warning and kept his silence.

All day long they wandered together and the Prophet taught the sage many teachings without a word of explanation about his way with the poor couple.

Towards evening they came to a fine mansion and asked permission to spend the night there. The rich man who lived there did not receive them with a friendly face. Grudgingly he permitted them to stay the night in his house, but offered them no food or a kind word. In the morning, as they were about to leave, they noticed a crack in the wall. Elijah did not say a word, but no sooner were they gone when the Prophet prayed that the cracked, dangerous wall be restored to solid strength.

Again Rabbi Joshua was amazed. "Why should the rich miser be spared the trouble and expense of repairing his wall?" thought he, but remembering the Prophet's warning he held his peace.

After a long and tiring day's journey, the two reached a city that had a beautiful House of Prayer. The walls were made of marble, and the benches of carved wood. The scrolls were richly adorned, and the Ark was a masterpiece of art. "Here, certainly, we shall be made welcome and treated with respect," thought Rabbi Joshua. But he was wrong again. After the evening prayers, no one seemed to take an interest in the strangers, and none of the wealthy members offered them a bed and food. The Prophet and the sage had to spend the night on the precious but hard wooden benches. When they left in the morning, the Prophet wished the members of the community that they should all become Aldermen of the city.

Rabbi Joshua was sorely tried to keep his silence, what with his empty stomach and aching bones. The Prophet's blessing to the unkind people puzzled him greatly, but he sealed his lips and buried his question deep in his heart.

The companions reached another city. The House of Prayer was not as beautiful as the one they visited the day before, but the people made up for it in kindness and hospitality. They enjoyed a rest in the best house of the town, and were honored like princes. When it was time to go, the Prophet turned to the good people and said: "May G-d grant that only one of you be a leader."

This was the last straw. The sage was no longer able to control himself. Forgetting the Prophet's warning, he exclaimed: "Revered Master! Far be it from me to tell you what to do. Yet it seems to me that you add insult to injury; that you reward good with evil, and evil with good. Please explain to me your strange ways."

"I warned you that humans judge by the sight of their eyes, but there is more in life than meets the eye. According to our agreement, you will have to leave me now. But let me explain to you at least what you have witnessed, and your heart will be able to live in peace.

"You see, the poor old couple who received us so nicely on the first night of our journey, certainly deserved our gratitude. I saw to my great sorrow that that very day the woman was destined to die. We gave them an opportunity, to do an act of charity and I prayed to G-d that she should live, and that their cow take her place. Although they lost their most precious possession, they will be able to stay together for a few years more. He who gives life will also provide for their support."

"I see now," exclaimed Rabbi joshua. "But what about that rich miser, and his cracked wall?"

"There was a huge treasure buried beneath the wall. Had it collapsed, the miser would have found it. That's why. "I could not have known that, of course," said Rabbi Joshua. "Now, why did you bless the men of the beautiful synagogue who did not open their homes to us?"

"That was no blessing, my friend," replied Elijah. "A community where everybody is a leader is not a happy place to live in. This is also the explanation of my wish to the kind and hospitable citizens of the last place we visited. Let them have one respected and able leader who is dedicated to the good of all. There will be peace, harmony and co-operation in that blessed community, and it will prosper."

"You have opened my eyes, dear Master," exclaimed Rabbi Joshua.

"Go and teach our brethren the ways of G-d. Let them not be disheartened when they see the wicked prosper, or the righteous suffer. For while man judges by the sight of his eyes, G-d looks into the heart, and He rules the world with justice and mercy. Shalom! Peace be with you."

The next moment Elijah was gone.

Sheikh Wikipedia tells me that: He (Rabbi Joshua ben Levi) was often made to be the companion of Elijah in the latter's wanderings on earth. (Pesikta 36a.)

Ok. So what is Pesikta? W says there are two: Pesikta de Rav Kahana (not the Rav Kahana of recent memory), and Pesikta Rabbati. The first is older, placed around 350-400 CE. The second is placed around 845 CE. If this story is indeed found in the first Pesikta, then it predates the Qur'an version. However, it could be another story between the two characters, as there are many, and the only sources I've found for the one I'm interested are recorded by Hasids, and the Hasids weren't established until after 1700.

 

[BerberElla]

Sorry, it's beyond my realm of expertise but it's quite interesting, hope someone else here can point you to other sources. 

[Lana]

That's a pretty interesting find and quite damning of Islam. That is to say, of it's claim of scriptural purity. I came across another instance of this, which I think we already discussed, which is the suspicious similarity to the story of Abraham in Genesis, chapter 18, verses 22-33 to the story of Muhammad bargaining with Allah to reduce the number of prayers Muslims have to pray.

I think these things are part of what makes religion so interesting: seeing how different ideas and stories and theological points are transmitted by different people and manifest themselves in different ways in different religions, and even within different sects of the same religion.

[awais]

Hm, I didn't see your reply til today.

That's a pretty interesting find and quite damning of Islam. That is to say, of it's claim of scriptural purity.

I'm not sure if it's damning yet, gotta be sure which one came first  .

I came across another instance of this, which I think we already discussed, which is the suspicious similarity to the story of Abraham in Genesis, chapter 18, verses 22-33 to the story of Muhammad bargaining with Allah to reduce the number of prayers Muslims have to pray.

It (Abraham's bargaining for Sodom) is in the Qur'an, but there is only a scant reference to it.

Then... he (Abraham) began to plead with Us for the people of Lot.

Ibn Kathir says,

It is mentioned by Sa'eed bin Jubair, Suddi, Ibn Is-haq and Qatadah:
 
Ibrahim said to them, "Will you destroy a town that has three hundred believers in it?'' They (the angels) said, "No."
(With the addition of "Two hundred?" in Qisas Al-Anbiya (Stories of the Prophets))
He then said, "Will you destroy a town that has two hundred believers in it'?' They said, "No.''
He said, "Will you destroy a town that has forty believers in it'?' They said, "No.''
He then said, "Thirty?'' ("Fourteen?" in Qisas) They still replied, "No.''
This continued until he said, "Five'?' They said, "No.''
Then he said, "What if there were a single believer in the town, would you destroy it?'' They said, "No.''
With this, Ibrahim said, "But Lot is in it." They said, "We know better who is there, we will verily save him and his family, except his wife..." Qur'an 29:32

He then goes on to quote from Genesis, which many dislike for his quoting the Jews all the time (them and their corrupt scripture! )

I think these things are part of what makes religion so interesting: seeing how different ideas and stories and theological points are transmitted by different people and manifest themselves in different ways in different religions, and even within different sects of the same religion.

Yup.

[Omaar Khayaam]

Muslims wouldn't really see these things as a problem. They would just say that the Quran has come as the criterion and to rectify the changes that the Jews and Christians made to their books. So stories which are similar or have different characters etc, wouldn't bother them.

[Hassan]

I had heard the story of Khidr came from a Jewish source.

There is little doubt that Muhammad took a great deal from the Jews of the Hijaz. (Cook and Crone saw Islam as a form of Jewish heresy to begin with.)

[Omaar Khayaam]

I had heard the story of Khidr came from a Jewish source.

There is little doubt that Muhammad took a great deal from the Jews of the Hijaz. (Cook and Crone saw Islam as a form of Jewish heresy to begin with.)

Sure, we would agree with that and take those theories on board. The muslims won't see it that way though. They will always see the Quran as abbrogating and correcting whatever the Jews and Christians have written.

Hass, have you read the books by Cook and Crone?

[Hassan]

Sure, we would agree with that and take those theories on board. The muslims won't see it that way though. They will always see the Quran as abbrogating and correcting whatever the Jews and Christians have written.

Hass, have you read the books by Cook and Crone?

No, though I attended lectures by Cook as he was at SOAS when I was a student there. I was aware of what he and Crone said though.

I did read Wansbrough's "Quranic Studies" - though please don't ask me questions about it. Apart from the fact it was 30 years ago - it was a extremely heavy going and unmemorable. He seemed to be showing off his mastery of Greek and Latin and used references to classical texts I was unfamiliar with. In short he said that the Qur'an was formed after a long oral evolution where it was improved and refined by Muhammad's followers before being crystallized into a written text and he compared the process to Ancient Greek Oral poetry.

[Omaar Khayaam]

No, though I attended lectures by Cook as he was at SOAS when I was a student there. I was aware of what he and Crone said though.

I did read Wansbrough's "Quranic Studies" - though please don't ask me questions about it. Apart from the fact it was 30 years ago - it was a extremely heavy going and unmemorable. He seemed to be showing off his mastery of Greek and Latin and used references to classical texts I was unfamiliar with. In short he said that the Qur'an was formed after a long oral evolution where it was improved and refined by Muhammad's followers before being crystallized into a written text and he compared the process to Ancient Greek Oral poetry.

I won't question you on that, but we are having a discussion about oral transmission on another thread. You might be able to shed some light on what a mutawatir hadith is on that thread.