A Serious Question to Ex-Muslims

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[BMZ]

Ahmed Bahgat directed me to some topics at FFI, titled Prostitution in Islam initiated by a poster nicknamed Haik Monsieur and Right-hand possessions and slavery in Islam initiated by dear All_Brains.

The topics can be found in Islam Questioned & Defended and some deleted material can be found in the Garbage Can of FFI.

Ahmed and another Muslim have done a good job of defending the false accusations against Islam and at one point, I saw All_Brains coming in and he confirmed that Islam does not endorse prostitution.

My question: As ex-Muslims, do you believe that Islam supports prostitution?

You have lived the life of a Muslim with members of your famiies before and do you agree with the above-named poster Haik Monsieur's garbage?

Salaams
BMZ

   

[speaklow]

I'm not an ex-Muslim so maybe I shouldn't reply to this but as far as you know does prostitution exist in Iran or Saudi Arabia? You need to ask yourself this first.

I don't know if the qu'ran promotes or endorses prostitution but it may permit it.

I do visit the FFI forum and I have read posts by Haik Monsieur. He claims he was a devout (sufi) Muslim for twenty years but now is a committed atheist.

You may not like what I'm going to say but for me Haik Monsieur is the best poster on FFI by a long way.

[BMZ]

I'm not an ex-Muslim so maybe I shouldn't reply to this but as far as you know does prostitution exist in Iran or Saudi Arabia? You need to ask yourself this first.

I don't know if the qu'ran promotes or endorses prostitution but it may permit it.

I do visit the FFI forum and I have read posts by Haik Monsieur. He claims he was a devout (sufi) Muslim for twenty years but now is a committed atheist.

You may not like what I'm going to say but for me Haik Monsieur is the best poster on FFI by a long way.

It is okay. Even other non-Muslims may express their opinion.

You said "I don't know if the qu'ran promotes or endorses prostitution I don't know if the qu'ran promotes or endorses prostitution but it may permit it.

What are you trying to say by writing "but it may permit it". How so?

After reading Haik Monsieur's posts and his references, I do not think he is even a good poster. Please let him know that. He is only good at false depictions but when challenged, is unable to prove his allegations.

Cheers
BMZ

[BerberElla]

I always believed that prostitution was Haram when I was a muslim, it wasn't until after when I started reading more to do with Islam, that I realised temporary marriage (which is not practised by sunnis anymore, but is by shias) is just glorified prostitution.

And Haik Monsieur makes me laugh, the arrogance and complete belief in his genius is enough to put anyone off the stuff he is writing.....well so I thought.

He left here crying about how we were all fake ex muslims because we didn't fall for his "I'm a super brainiac" routine"

[speaklow]

You said "I don't know if the qu'ran promotes or endorses prostitution I don't know if the qu'ran promotes or endorses prostitution but it may permit it.

What are you trying to say by writing "but it may permit it". How so?

Well where does your average Joe like myself look for an example on the application of Islamic scriptures if we can't look at the most Islamic societies on this planet.

What I'm trying to say is if prostitution exists in Saudi Arabia or Iran then I'm guessing that it is at least tolerated Islamically.

You may argue that these countries are not real Islamic societies but I'll leave that for the Islamic experts to decide.

[BMZ]

I always believed that prostitution was Haram when I was a muslim, it wasn't until after when I started reading more to do with Islam, that I realised temporary marriage (which is not practised by sunnis anymore, but is by shias) is just glorified prostitution.

And Haik Monsieur makes me laugh, the arrogance and complete belief in his genius is enough to put anyone off the stuff he is writing.....well so I thought.

He left here crying about how we were all fake ex muslims because we didn't fall for his "I'm a super brainiac" routine"

Thanks for the honest and frank comment, Ella. You judged Haik Monsieur correctly.  

Wish I were here when he was here. Yes, he copies and pastes from Shia Islamic sites and presents to all Muslims that Islam endorses prostitution.

If he comes here again, I wil take him to task.

Just for my study, where did he write when he was here? Can you please let me know?

Salaams
BMZ

[BMZ]

You said "I don't know if the qu'ran promotes or endorses prostitution I don't know if the qu'ran promotes or endorses prostitution but it may permit it.

What are you trying to say by writing "but it may permit it". How so?

Well where does your average Joe like myself look for an example on the application of Islamic scriptures if we can't look at the most Islamic societies on this planet.

What I'm trying to say is if prostitution exists in Saudi Arabia or Iran then I'm guessing that it is at least tolerated Islamically.

You may argue that these countries are not real Islamic societies but I'll leave that for the Islamic experts to decide.

Prostitution is all over the globe. No nation and no country can deny that.

Prostitution may be carried out discreetly in Muslim countries but you cannot term it Islamically.

That is not the right answer and you do not need experts, you and I can decide that.

BMZ

[BerberElla]

He wrote under the name Haji Murad
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/weaponstestingrange/index.php/topic,2102.0.html.

His posts are over at the archive (above link) and some of our archive posts are missing.

Anyway you can see it's the same person just from the arrogant style. 

[BMZ]

He wrote under the name Haji Murad
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/weaponstestingrange/index.php/topic,2102.0.html.

His posts are over at the archive (above link) and some of our archive posts are missing.

Anyway you can see it's the same person just from the arrogant style. 

Even the name Haji Murad sounds arrogant, Ella.  Thanks for the link. I appreciate that. Will go through to read the stuff by Haik Monsieur.

Salaams
BMZ

[speaklow]

I know prostitution occurs across the globe.

BerberElla mentioned temporary marriage.

Does money, goods or other services change hands during this transaction?

As far as I am aware for a temporary marriage to occur they need permission from someone from the Islamic clergy, do they not?

[BerberElla]

I know prostitution occurs across the globe.

BerberElla mentioned temporary marriage.

Does money, goods or other services change hands during this transaction?

As far as I am aware for a temporary marriage to occur they need permission from someone from the Islamic clergy, do they not?

Yes, an agreed upon amount of money for an agreed upon amount of time in a temporary marriage, could even be for an hour........basically prostitution.

[awais]

And force not your maids to prostitution, if they desire chastity, in order that you may make a gain in the (perishable) goods of this worldly life. But if anyone compels them (to prostitution), then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to those women, i.e. He will forgive them because they have been forced to do this evil action unwillingly).

An-Noor/The Light 24:33

And I remember a case in the hadith when men were with the messenger, and they were horny, and took "wives for a night", or somesuch. I'll have to look that one up again. It may have been used as a proof for Mut'ah Marriage, which is dissaproved of by Sunnis, but accepted by shi'is.

Heh, when looking up "mutah", look what I found. :

[speaklow]

I know prostitution occurs across the globe.

BerberElla mentioned temporary marriage.

Does money, goods or other services change hands during this transaction?

As far as I am aware for a temporary marriage to occur they need permission from someone from the Islamic clergy, do they not?

Yes, an agreed upon amount of money for an agreed upon amount of time in a temporary marriage, could even be for an hour........basically prostitution.

Sounds right to me. And before BMZ says that Shia Islam is not really Islam well Hassan had a video entitled 'Will the real Islam please stand up'. I think the title says it all particularly for non-muslims like myself.

Though I don't really like the idea of prostitution it is not illegal in the UK. What I don't like is a hypocritical attitude from religious types who like to point the finger when there own house is not in order.

With regards to Haik Monsieur I wasn't around when he posted on this site. This is the only forum I post on but all the same I do find him entertaining on FFI. I personally don't visit forums or surf for the web to get serious all the time. I like a bit of entertainment as well.

[awais]

Aha, I found this one, but I was thinking of another.

Sahih Muslim, Kitab An-Nikah, Book 008, Number 3253:
 
Rabi' b. Sabra reported that his father went on an expedition with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) during the Victory of Mecca, and we stayed there for fifteen days (i. e. for thirteen full days and a day and a night), and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) permitted us to contract temporary marriage with women. So I and another person of my tribe went out, and I was more handsome than he, whereas he was almost ugly. Each one of us had a cloaks, My cloak was worn out, whereas the cloak of my cousin was quite new. As we reached the lower or the upper side of Mecca, we came across a young woman like a young smart long-necked she-camel. We said: Is it possible that one of us may contract temporary marriage with you? She said: What will you give me as a dower? Each one of us spread his cloak. She began to cast a glance on both the persons. My companion also looked at her when she was casting a glance at her side and he said: This cloak of his is worn out, whereas my cloak is quite new. She, however, said twice or thrice: There is no harm in (accepting) this cloak (the old one). So I contracted temporary marriage with her, and I did not come out (of this) until Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) declared it forbidden.

[a.ghazali]

Aha, I found this one, but I was thinking of another.

Maybe one of these, Awais?

SM 8:3247-49 - Allah's Messenger came to us and permitted us to contract temporary marriage. Yes, we had been benefiting ourselves by this temporary marriage during the lifetime of the Prophet. We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of dates or flour during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger.

SM 8:3252 - Sabra Juhanni reported: Allah's Messenger permitted temporary (mut?ah) marriage for us. So I and another person went out and saw a woman of Bana 'Amir, who was like a young long-necked she-camel. We presented ourselves to her for contracting temporary marriage, whereupon she said: What dowry would you give me? I said: My cloak. I remained with her for three nights

[awais]

The second one is the same as the one I quoted. It wasn't the first, but that's just more proof .

The one I'm thinking of they were posted out somewhere for a ghazwa, and they got up during the night to a nearby village to see the women there and get release. I gotta look it up.

I'm thinking it maybe in kitab al-jihad or something.

[a.ghazali]

Of course, according to the Sunnah, Muhammad though introducing nikah mut'ah is also said to have forbidden it. This prohibition is not recognised by Shias who I believe see that hadith as forbidding a person who stayed in the mut'ah on a permanent basis and only ended it when Muhammad forbade him to.

Nikah mut'ah was really a way of legalising prostitution so that the sex act will occur within a so-called sanctified relationship.

Hence technically speaking I'd say prostitution as we know it would be illegal in Islam.

However the promises of beautiful houris in paradise who remain eternal virgins nor do they age and available in vast quantities does lend some incentive for men to try and create that paradise here on earth. The rational for some might be if its ok for heaven where Allah resides, why not here?

The following ahadith explains how open prostition will take place in Jannah:

Al hadiths, Vol. 4, Page-172, No.34:  The Apostle of Allah said, ?There is in paradise an open market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, at once he will have intercourse with them as desired.

Tirmizi, volume two (p 35-40): .... A houri is a girl of tender age, having large breasts which are round (pointed), and not inclined to dangle. Houris dwell in palaces of splendid surroundings. The Prophet was asked :'Do we have sex in Paradise?' He answered: 'Yes, by him who holds my soul in his hand, and it will be done dahman, dahman (with vigour). And when it is finished she will return pure and virgin again.

The ridiculous promises of sex for men in Jannah, which when taken in their correct context were basically carrots dangling on a stick in front a Muslim to get him to go out and kill or get killed for Muhammad's dream of conquering Arabia was one of the main reason I started doubting Islam as a religion.

[BMZ]

He wrote under the name Haji Murad
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/weaponstestingrange/index.php/topic,2102.0.html.

His posts are over at the archive (above link) and some of our archive posts are missing.

Anyway you can see it's the same person just from the arrogant style. 

Thank you for the link Ella. Enjoyed reading it and all of you handled Haik Monsieur ver well. I learnt something new too.

Salaams
BMZ

[PeruvianSkies]

Of course, according to the Sunnah, Muhammad though introducing nikah mut'ah is also said to have forbidden it. This prohibition is not recognised by Shias who I believe see that hadith as forbidding a person who stayed in the mut'ah on a permanent basis and only ended it when Muhammad forbade him to.

Nikah mut'ah was really a way of legalising prostitution so that the sex act will occur within a so-called sanctified relationship.

Hence technically speaking I'd say prostitution as we know it would be illegal in Islam.

However the promises of beautiful houris in paradise who remain eternal virgins nor do they age and available in vast quantities does lend some incentive for men to try and create that paradise here on earth. The rational for some might be if its ok for heaven where Allah resides, why not here?

The following ahadith explains how open prostition will take place in Jannah:

Al hadiths, Vol. 4, Page-172, No.34:  The Apostle of Allah said, ?There is in paradise an open market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, at once he will have intercourse with them as desired.

Tirmizi, volume two (p 35-40): .... A houri is a girl of tender age, having large breasts which are round (pointed), and not inclined to dangle. Houris dwell in palaces of splendid surroundings. The Prophet was asked :'Do we have sex in Paradise?' He answered: 'Yes, by him who holds my soul in his hand, and it will be done dahman, dahman (with vigour). And when it is finished she will return pure and virgin again.

The ridiculous promises of sex for men in Jannah, which when taken in their correct context were basically carrots dangling on a stick in front a Muslim to get him to go out and kill or get killed for Muhammad's dream of conquering Arabia was one of the main reason I started doubting Islam as a religion.

Do the women in Islam never realise how degrading this is? Islam has no respect for women, it's sickening!

I don't understand the virgin thing either, I feel sorry for those 'houris' who have to go through the pain of breaking their hymen every time they have sex for the rest of eternity :(

[BMZ]

Sounds right to me. And before BMZ says that Shia Islam is not really Islam well Hassan had a video entitled 'Will the real Islam please stand up'. I think the title says it all particularly for non-muslims like myself.

Though I don't really like the idea of prostitution it is not illegal in the UK. What I don't like is a hypocritical attitude from religious types who like to point the finger when there own house is not in order.

With regards to Haik Monsieur I wasn't around when he posted on this site. This is the only forum I post on but all the same I do find him entertaining on FFI. I personally don't visit forums or surf for the web to get serious all the time. I like a bit of entertainment as well.

No, I will never say that Shia Islam is not Islam. Shias are Muslims.

It is just that the Shias wrongly defend Mut'aa which is not really Nikah or a marriage. There is no instruction for Mut'aa in Qur'aan.

They have their own ahaadith collections and do not accept the Sunni collections of Ahaadith but if any Sunni hadith suits them, they gladly quote it.

Cheers
BMZ

[BMZ]

Of course, according to the Sunnah, Muhammad though introducing nikah mut'ah is also said to have forbidden it. This prohibition is not recognised by Shias who I believe see that hadith as forbidding a person who stayed in the mut'ah on a permanent basis and only ended it when Muhammad forbade him to.

Nikah mut'ah was really a way of legalising prostitution so that the sex act will occur within a so-called sanctified relationship.

Hence technically speaking I'd say prostitution as we know it would be illegal in Islam.

However the promises of beautiful houris in paradise who remain eternal virgins nor do they age and available in vast quantities does lend some incentive for men to try and create that paradise here on earth. The rational for some might be if its ok for heaven where Allah resides, why not here?

The following ahadith explains how open prostition will take place in Jannah:

Al hadiths, Vol. 4, Page-172, No.34:  The Apostle of Allah said, ?There is in paradise an open market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, at once he will have intercourse with them as desired.

Tirmizi, volume two (p 35-40): .... A houri is a girl of tender age, having large breasts which are round (pointed), and not inclined to dangle. Houris dwell in palaces of splendid surroundings. The Prophet was asked :'Do we have sex in Paradise?' He answered: 'Yes, by him who holds my soul in his hand, and it will be done dahman, dahman (with vigour). And when it is finished she will return pure and virgin again.

The ridiculous promises of sex for men in Jannah, which when taken in their correct context were basically carrots dangling on a stick in front a Muslim to get him to go out and kill or get killed for Muhammad's dream of conquering Arabia was one of the main reason I started doubting Islam as a religion.

That is not what I am after.

Ignore the junk ahaadith. Does the Qur'aan allow prostitutiont? That is what I am asking the ex-Muslims here and Ella gave the best answer so far.

If you were a Muslim before, did you ever believe that Islam allowed prostitution? Were you taught anything of that sort?

Cheers
BMZ

[awais]

Here's an ayah for you, you qurani .

And force not your maids to prostitution, if they desire chastity, in order that you may make a gain in the (perishable) goods of this worldly life. But if anyone compels them (to prostitution), then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to those women, i.e. He will forgive them because they have been forced to do this evil action unwillingly).

An-Noor/The Light 24:33

"And force not your maids to prostitution, if they desire chastity" If they desire chastity. What if they don't desire chastity? Then can you force them to prostitution? It wouldn't really be forcing then would it? This prohibition is on forced prostitution, what about pimping out willing hos? Sounds to me like this ayah implies that would be legal.

[Cheetah]

BMZ, you seem to be asking two different questions.  In the OP you ask...

My question: As ex-Muslims, do you believe that Islam supports prostitution?

Then, when hadeeths are mentioned, it became...

Does the Qur'aan allow prostitutiont?

Islam consists of more than the Qur'an.  So which is it, Islam or just the Qur'an specifically you want to ask about?

[BMZ]

BMZ, you seem to be asking two different questions.  In the OP you ask...

My question: As ex-Muslims, do you believe that Islam supports prostitution?

Then, when hadeeths are mentioned, it became...

Does the Qur'aan allow prostitutiont?

Islam consists of more than the Qur'an.  So which is it, Islam or just the Qur'an specifically you want to ask about?

Hello, Cheetah

Good point.

You are right. I should have clarified that. Yes, just the Qur'aan.
Hadith are not the scripture. Qur'aan is the Scripture and it reigns Supreme.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Cheers
BMZ

[Baal]

You said "I don't know if the qu'ran promotes or endorses prostitution I don't know if the qu'ran promotes or endorses prostitution but it may permit it.

What are you trying to say by writing "but it may permit it". How so?

Well where does your average Joe like myself look for an example on the application of Islamic scriptures if we can't look at the most Islamic societies on this planet.

What I'm trying to say is if prostitution exists in Saudi Arabia or Iran then I'm guessing that it is at least tolerated Islamically.

You may argue that these countries are not real Islamic societies but I'll leave that for the Islamic experts to decide.

Prostitution is all over the globe. No nation and no country can deny that.

Prostitution may be carried out discreetly in Muslim countries but you cannot term it Islamically.

That is not the right answer and you do not need experts, you and I can decide that.

BMZ

If you want to bring the cultural crap into this then here is some cultural crap: In the islamic culture the prostitute has it the easiest in the world. All she needs is a veil and a cell phone. In Europe at least they have to keep to certain areas and certain streets, in the middle east they hooked at the doors of a mosque. In Cairo when we see a woman standing still in a veil, then she is assumed to be a whore. And we have tons. Even better, when a whore is arrested with a john, the john will claim he married her, and the cops can not do sh1t about it.

In Tehran, they needed to nail the chief of police, so they had to bust him with 6 prostitutes. Six. Because if they nailed him with 4 he could have claimed he married them. To make it stick on him they needed Six. So I would advise you keep the cultural crap out of this because the "muslim" laundry is quite dirty when it comes to prostitution. And I am not even covering under-age prostitution yet.