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 Topic: Girls are useless...

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  • Girls are useless...
     OP - September 22, 2008, 01:58 PM
    Hi all

    you know thinking about it for a while, I have to say one of the things that always hangs over the heads of girls in South Asia is this:

    it doesn't matter what great achievements or things you do. At the end of the day 'you will become part of another family'. How many times have I heard that in various forms?Huh??? Huh?

    The tradition of a girl 'crying' and weeping and having to put her head down in a wedding, and showing herself to be submissive to the community, makes me mad as helll wacko

    She has to eventually 'leave' and go to her husband's family and now she is part of their group. So you see whatever achievements or money you have, in the end it will all be for the benefit of the man and his family.

    In the end as a result, will the girl be able to look after her parents when they are older? Nope. What 'advantage' (as crude as that may sound) is there in having a girl. 'Your acheivements will benefit another man's family, not yours'! At the end of the day off you go to you inlaws house. You have to listen to what your husband's family and in laws tell you. If they wear hijab, then you must do so as well, because they expect you to..if they don't like you going somewhere then well you can really go there..unless your husband 'approves'...what a deep rut a women is stuck in!

    So when they have a girl, they are never happy truly as when they have a boy..you see you will be looking after another man's parents, your role is to cook and clean for your in laws. They find it so strange when a girl looks after her own parents.
    The only time that happens if the parents only have girls, then its seen as a misfortune, because 'oh well you don't have a son to look after you'..

    And so we come back to the bluddy weddings, and even before that. Dressed up as a Christmas tree with a saree on, being 'shown' to the grooms family when they come to see you. They 'observe' you in all your well trained submissive ways... Cry

    and then comes the wedding, oh well back to being coy and shy and submissive. A girl who is happy and laughs and walks around in the wedding is given weird 'looks' and people talk about her family..

    It pains me inside to think I am expected to go through this..
    I know one thing, whatever things I do in my life, you'll always be of your 'shoshur bari', your husband's household..

    Marmalade Lady finmad
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #1 - September 22, 2008, 05:46 PM
    Is there no way out for you? If not, have you tried finding other Asian girls in your situation? It helps to have people on your side, so whatever decisions you make, you can make them together.

    You can also challenge your family Islamically, even if you don't believe in it. There are many ways you can challenge their backward cultural ways through religion and that way they won't be able to argue against you. It'd be religion versus culture.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #2 - September 22, 2008, 06:49 PM
    What is there to challenge? an economic system? a cultural system?

    They are correct in a very bad way. the way the society runs, the girl 'will' belong to another family. You can not go and deny that. Anything given to the girl, will end up in the ownership of her inlaws. Inheritance, jewllery, everything. With all this in mind, only a weird girl or a girl who hates her family will be that ecstatic on her wedding.

    The only solution to this, is to stop treating women as properties. Whatever a woman owns is hers. Whatever job she is qualified for, she gets. Whatever pay is given to a male flunkie, the female flunkie also gets. Equality.

    Anything that promotes equality is to be encouraged at all cost. Anything that opposes equality is to be stamped out.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #3 - September 22, 2008, 11:06 PM
    Like Lady said, throw the Qu'ran at them, they cannot deny THAT!   dance



    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #4 - September 23, 2008, 04:53 AM
    Quote from: Nour on September 22, 2008, 11:06 PM
    Like Lady said, throw the Qu'ran at them, they cannot deny THAT!   dance


    Koran gives you very crappy parameters to play within but you might as well use it.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #5 - September 23, 2008, 07:43 AM
    Well its interesting you say too throw the Quran at them. Even if you play the Islamic argument out, its amazing how many asians, even of my generation still think that a girl will 'leave' and go to another family. The logistics of marriage are organized in such a way that, however Islamic they are, they still will try to suss out the man';s family because they believe they will eventually leave and go to another family. Is Islam itself not part of this south asian tradition..? Most marriages from the bangladeshi community in the UK are like that infact. The girl is expected to 'move' to the man's household and start to be part of his family and so forth...while Islamically the boy is mean to be the one looking after his parents.

    Marmalade Lady
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #6 - September 23, 2008, 09:30 AM
    I know that the S. Asian traditions and customs are pervasive but Islamically, you do not HAVE to move in with your future in-laws.  One of the rules, as I learnt it, is that for a man to provide for his wife also includes being able to provide her with an abode separate from the in-laws.  I realise that this means depriving the in-laws of their 'bahu' who would do all the cooking and cleaning up after them but hey!  Islamically it is NOT the wife's duty to look after her husband's parents.  Weren't we all taught during our times as Muslims that one must respect and care for their parents?  This would also mean that a son must look after his own parents, not force his wife to do his job for him!

    If it is any use to you Marm, here's some fatawa from Islam Online which many Muslims I know rely on as a good source for 'moderate' Islamic rulings :

    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503549136&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543578

    Hope this helps.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #7 - September 23, 2008, 10:58 AM
    Can you believe there are subcontinentals (Hindu) on FFI, who claim indian women have it better than women in the west?  Roll Eyes
    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #8 - September 23, 2008, 11:31 AM
    Have you ever read the Laws of Manu?  Now there was a woman hater if ever there was one!
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #9 - September 23, 2008, 11:42 AM
    Not everything in your culture comes from the koran. However your original culture is most likely destroyed as is common to any country that adopts islam. By the culture being destroyed I mean that some rituals of your culture got amplified by islam as it was compatible, and some rituals were completely destroyed.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #10 - September 23, 2008, 02:33 PM
    Well I've never believed Hinduism treates women any better. This idea of goddesses in the religion is over-inflated to present a rosy eyed 'feminine' component to the religion which Westerners often fall for. The everyday reality is different, sorry. This is not attack on Hindusim in anyway, its sort of just got into that subject.
    I have heard about that whole thing in Islam though from many Muslimah's, that apparently its all down to culture etc and that a girl isnlt expected to move and become part of the husband's family so she has to look after her in laws and listen to what they expect. For most South asian Muslims this idea seems to become so normalized. Where in the Quran and Sunnah does it specifically say this? I am still suspicious of this idea, because even Arabs are obsessed with the son carrying on the family name and so forth....

    Yes plenty of things in the culture are not entirely linked with Islam, however what I think the very societal structure itself created the backdrop for girls to eventually be less valued.

    Marmalade Lady
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #11 - September 23, 2008, 02:46 PM
    Quote from: Nour on September 23, 2008, 11:31 AM
    Have you ever read the Laws of Manu?  Now there was a woman hater if ever there was one!

    Yes, they quote them, but I always take it with a grain of salt, since it's mostly Yohan and his ilk (Hindu-bashers) quoting them.

    Quote
    Well I've never believed Hinduism treates women any better.

     
    Yes, alone the fact that pre-birth sex-determination is forbidden in India, says a lot. The male-female ratios in India say a lot, too.

    Quote
    This idea of goddesses in the religion is over-inflated to present a rosy eyed 'feminine' component to the religion which Westerners often fall for.

     
    Yes, similiar to the "But...but...we have had female heads of state."- argument.  Cheesy
    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #12 - September 24, 2008, 10:26 AM
    Hello Marmalad lady,
    Things are not all black and white. I hope things work out very well for you.

    I am from Indian Hindu family and I am currently based in the UK. I have very nice inlaws. They don't ask me what I do with my money or for that matter my hubby's money. They are retied and we obviously care for them. As far as possible they don't use my money for their personal use. I do take care of my own parents. I will sponsor by brother for his education. My in laws are not stopping me doing any of these. And they are happy for my professional achievements. So, I am still the same individual. Just staying with my inlaws don't attack my individuality or profession or hobbies. Never ever any of my in-laws or parents have made me feel that 'girls are useless'. 

    Yes there are incidences when I think I need more privacy with my Husband or I want to have some other plans rather than attending boring social gatherings. But, over all it is not at all bad.

    I am just not an exception. I know many such families.

    Regarding Hinduism's and Islam's treatment of women, it is like comparing which is better? being thrown from mountain cliff or being drowned in an ocean?

    However Ithe main difference is, Hinduism clearly distinguishes between two level of scriptures: one that talks about spirituality, relation beween soul and God, we think that is divine. The other talks about social practices, laws, dos and don'ts. And we think the latter one keeps on changing according to place and time and circumstances, that is man made and don't have divinity.

    So, Hindus don't believe that Manusmriti is applicable today where as some Muslims still believe Sharia punishments for adultery etc. are valid punishments today.
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #13 - September 24, 2008, 02:40 PM
    Hi learn2bcalm

    Thanks for your response. Yes you;re right things are not as black and white and I hope I didn;t give that impression. Its not even the idea of a girl living with her in laws, although I do wonder why a man doesn;lt more frequently then live with his in laws in South Asian families? Is the onus not more on the son to provide for his parents and the daughter in law to come in and look after and be part of ? I myself also because I live in UK work, and I know will continue to do so if I get married, its becoming more accepted.

    Even i know of many cases of families here where the girl works etc. Not all are slaves to the kitchen. I never even said it was wrong to look after parents because they are old, although you do wonder how many south asian Hindu and Muslim girls look after their parents? Isn't it more the case that they do look after their husband's family?

    Infact most of my discourse was about the symbolic sense in the wedding of a girl 'leaving' and so forth and going to her husband's family. That has clear implications, even in the way a girl is represented. Also vast majority of Hindu families provide a dowry to the groom's family, which in itself has caused problems for so many. Please don;'t tell me thats all because of 'culture', its all so prevalent in places like India, the burden of so many of these families having to pay large sums of dowry to the groom's family. Yet the onus is still there that she will be 'leaving' and going to another family, and that the dowry is essentially being given directly to the groom's family. I was also commenting on a girl 'crying' and having to look sad and upset. In most tradition south asian marriages a girl has to keep her head down and not look to 'happy'.

    There are many dowry killings in India as a result of that and the fact that India has one of the highest rate of female infanticide in the world is a testimony to how the very structure itself is creating problems like this. If you were born in a not so wealthy Hindu family in India, chances are you will be 'leaving' and eventually moving to your husband's family and any earnings you have (not as chance of that as high as in UK as a women) would in a sense be of use to your husband's family.

    I never meant to attack Hinduism, although your analysis of Hindusim being two tiered- one a more personal relation to God, and the other changing for all times- has been applied in understanding many religions- Including Islam. There are many moderate Muslims who say the same thing, more extremist types will say that all laws should be applied for all times in the Quran. Others will say certain things belong to the past but there are 'universal' principles even in the Quran. It depends to what extent you are willing to brainwash yourself, that goes for Hinduism as well as Islam...

    Marmalade Lady
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #14 - September 24, 2008, 03:21 PM
    Hi Marmalade lady.

    I know, you don't mean to attack Hinduism. But, It is perfectly OK to attack Hinduism, we all time do Islam - Christianity criticism. It will be very much hypocrticial on my side If I enjoy criticising Islam y logical means and get emotional when it comes to my religion. 

    I just pointed out the obvious difference, that we accept that most of our scriptures are man made, the person who might have been considered intelligent / pious in his time and it is not from God. And those ppl can commit mistakes and we need to rectify them.

    You are right. India has female infanticide, dowry, inlaws harrasing daughter inlaws. The problems are there and serious action needs to be taken against all of them.  I just pointed out that this reality is more severe in tribal areas etc.

    I would be very happy to read the view that Islam also distinguishes social customs and spirituality. I have jsut seen that view point in Sufis. It is good if main stream Muslims are heading towards reform.  Could you please point some sources?
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #15 - October 11, 2008, 12:07 PM
    i find it hilarious that an 'ex muslim' is to use the quran to challenge cultural traditions, lol

    marmalade-lady ur view of the whole asian marriage system is very narrow. maybe ur family is like that, preferring girls over boys, and treating the girls as lesser beings, but not everyone elses are.

  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #16 - October 11, 2008, 01:39 PM
    Quote from: train on October 11, 2008, 12:07 PM
    i find it hilarious that an 'ex muslim' is to use the quran to challenge cultural traditions, lol

    marmalade-lady ur view of the whole asian marriage system is very narrow. maybe ur family is like that, preferring girls over boys, and treating the girls as lesser beings, but not everyone elses are.




    What is hilarious about an "ex muslim" using the Quran to prove a point?  Roll Eyes 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #17 - October 11, 2008, 07:04 PM
    i said to challenge cultural thinking.

    if you dont believe in the text, then why use it.
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #18 - October 11, 2008, 07:59 PM
    Quote from: train on October 11, 2008, 07:04 PM
    i said to challenge cultural thinking.

    if you dont believe in the text, then why use it.


    It's elementary watson, because the people we are trying to awaken DO believe in it.  I can't believe so many actually need the logistics of such a basic tactic explained to them.  wacko
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #19 - October 11, 2008, 08:11 PM
    Quote from: train on October 11, 2008, 07:04 PM
    i said to challenge cultural thinking.

    if you dont believe in the text, then why use it.

    There are many ways of tackling ignorance and superstition. Turning peoples  brainwashing to their own ultimate advantage is just one of them.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #20 - October 11, 2008, 11:53 PM
    seems like a tactic of a hypocrite
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #21 - October 11, 2008, 11:58 PM
    Why? If someone has a certain belief system but is acting in a fashion that apparently contradicts said belief system what is hypocritical about pointing this out?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #22 - October 12, 2008, 10:24 AM
    Quote from: train on October 11, 2008, 11:53 PM
    seems like a tactic of a hypocrite



    Seems to me like you don't know what the definition of a hypocrite even is.  bunny
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #23 - October 12, 2008, 01:01 PM
    Quote from: train on October 11, 2008, 11:53 PM
    seems like a tactic of a hypocrite



    Not really. If someone believes in something like the Quran and they believe it's the word of god and perfect. Showing that it isnt perfect or the word of god proves your argument. Just because you're arguing that it isnt the word of god/perfecrt doesnt mean you believe in it or that you are a hypocrite.
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #24 - October 12, 2008, 10:58 PM
    im saying if the person using the quran to prove their point doesnt actually believe it, then to use it is hypocritical.

  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #25 - October 13, 2008, 03:37 AM
    Piffle and balderdash.  bunny
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #26 - October 13, 2008, 05:09 AM
    Here is a little thing for you Train from 9:29:

    "..until they pay the jizya while they are belittled/humiliated.."

    from 4:34
    "if you fear discord then preach to them AND leaver their bed AND beat them until they return to obedience."

    from 5:33
    "kill them, crucify them, dismember them on either side and exile them"

    from 66.1-5
    "if he was to divorce you then allah may grant him better women who are chaste, pious, obediant, better at the sucking of the cock, etc.."

    from 33:50: A banging license for muhammad and only for muhammad to bang anything that moves pretty much.

    You still have a problem with me using the koran b1tch?
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #27 - October 13, 2008, 10:27 AM
    Quote from: train on October 12, 2008, 10:58 PM
    im saying if the person using the quran to prove their point doesnt actually believe it, then to use it is hypocritical.



    No, not hypocritical, but possibly hypothetical, if meant that way.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Girls are useless...
     Reply #28 - October 15, 2008, 06:41 PM
    Hi Train

    I never said that everyone is like that, but I am pointing out a commonality of behaviour that does exist in south asia. Yes not every south asian family is like that, but only going to India you can't help but see the obvious crap that women have to go through. The whole dynamics of the many customs themselves,  e.g girls leaving going to another family, dowry etc...contributes to the general lower way in which girls are regarded. Thats not to say that there hasn't been progress, yet deeply entrenched views about women and 'honour' and dowry, and female obedience to in laws and husband etc are still there (AND PLENTY MORE).

    Also I was not using the Quran to 'defend' Islam or south asian Muslims, I was just pointing out the obvious fallacies that exist in Hinduism and Hindu society beyond the popular perception of gurus, ashrams and 'spirituality' etc. I am just saying a lot of patriarchal, oppressive ideas have seeped into Hindu society as well, not that that justify's what Muslims do, although in your case it seems to have hit hard at the 'spiritual' guru-like view of India and Hindus, amongst westerners particularly.
    To be fair just like many 'modernist' Hindus, there are Muslim who have tried to find their own peaceful, 'progressive' resolution with Islam. I don;t agree with it though, its just another self-induced way of brainwashing....

    Marmalade Lady


    Marmalade Lady
  • Girls are useless...
     Reply #29 - September 27, 2014, 06:45 AM
    Quite curious to see what current members think of this. popcorn
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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