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 Topic: Question to muslims

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  • Question to muslims
     Reply #30 - March 19, 2017, 09:53 PM

    Unifier, I understand your view. But the canonical text is at odds with Islamic practice in most of the world until quite recently.
    I also tried to label and understand Islam from the Quran and Sunnah, but that is not enough. What most Muslims find helpful in their daily lives are not verses on raping slaves, but verses offering general advice on how to live.
    Is Islam it's origins, it's history, or it's Ummah?
    They are not all the same thing. ISIS is trying to reconcile origins by citing history and creating an Ummah based on the strictest interpretations. Most Muslims think this is wrong and want not a damn thing to do with it.
    Who is right?
    The majority of Muslims, or ISIS? Scholars who advocate harm, or the Muslim majority who refuse to harm? Which is Islam?
    If Islam were as harsh as you say, most Muslims would have flocked to Syria instead of denouncing or ignoring ISIS.
    Most Muslims had never heard of taqqiya until a few years ago, and I had never heard of it until after I left.
    What most Muslims understand of Islamic practice is not this Saudi shit shoved down our throats the past few decades. It used to be something else entirely, more varied and benign.


    That's good to read Three.  Its so hard to know for an 'outsider' like me what the percentages of tolerant peaceful vs violent aggressive Muslims really is.   I fully understand there are very kind and gentle souls who reside inside Muslims.  Just watched the Sam Harris / Maajid Nawaz talk about their jointly written book in front of a Harvard audience.  A couple of the questioners were Muslim students and they were very sincere and thoughtful people.  One spoke about his hope that some Western cultural practices he had experienced while at Harvard could one day be the standard practice in his own country.

    I also have some sympathy for the Islamic viewpoint on Jesus and the trinity.   In late antiquity after the Council of Chalcedon in Constantinople - the Christological doctrines of Western Christianity started to take shape.   But they were bitterly opposed in Eastern centers of Christianity like Antioch and Damascus where Nestorian and Monophysite Christian ideas were followed.   I hear echoes of those debates in the comments of present day Muslim apologists and am hoping to develop these hunches into something more substantial.

    Holland's book is very good on conveying the religious melting pot that was Mesopotamia from 500 BCE to 600 ACE.  Large Jewish population among the Christian majority in what is today Syria, Iraq and Iran. 

    What is your take on the 'refugees' in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere who are causing so many problems and arousing deep resentment among the host populations?
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #31 - March 19, 2017, 10:45 PM

    Unifier I'm glad three's cleared up the taqqiya bit. My whole family had never heard of it. There's a lot of propaganda against ordinary muslims on the net. the hate is unbelievable.

    If anyone has used taqqiya, then its bush and blair in my opinion when they went into Iraq and then Afghanistan. I'm sure I read somewhere that both believed they were doing Gods work. Rumsfeld would even send out memos with biblical scripture on it.

    I think the west is itching for a war.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #32 - March 20, 2017, 01:46 AM

    That's good to read Three.  Its so hard to know for an 'outsider' like me what the percentages of tolerant peaceful vs violent aggressive Muslims really is.   I fully understand there are very kind and gentle souls who reside inside Muslims.  Just watched the Sam Harris / Maajid Nawaz talk about their jointly written book in front of a Harvard audience.  A couple of the questioners were Muslim students and they were very sincere and thoughtful people.  One spoke about his hope that some Western cultural practices he had experienced while at Harvard could one day be the standard practice in his own country.

    I also have some sympathy for the Islamic viewpoint on Jesus and the trinity.   In late antiquity after the Council of Chalcedon in Constantinople - the Christological doctrines of Western Christianity started to take shape.   But they were bitterly opposed in Eastern centers of Christianity like Antioch and Damascus where Nestorian and Monophysite Christian ideas were followed.   I hear echoes of those debates in the comments of present day Muslim apologists and am hoping to develop these hunches into something more substantial.

    Holland's book is very good on conveying the religious melting pot that was Mesopotamia from 500 BCE to 600 ACE.  Large Jewish population among the Christian majority in what is today Syria, Iraq and Iran. 

    What is your take on the 'refugees' in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere who are causing so many problems and arousing deep resentment among the host populations?


    I feel refugees ought to be helped, especially if they come from countries that have suffered war recently. However, I am not sympathetic towards any person who does not respect the laws of the country they are in. Unfortunately in the US we often throw our refugees down in a city center and then leave them to fend for themselves.I have no idea if Europa does the same.  If we had a settlement program that introduced refugees to basics like the local customs, laws, and how to be a good citizen it would be much better. I remember New Zealand had a program like that a few decades ago and it was quite successful. I also feel a language class requirement would make things easier. But we don't want to invest, it seems.
    There is not much point in demanding assimilation if we don't explain how or help in some way with it.

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #33 - March 20, 2017, 07:55 AM

    hello

    from my humble point of view

      whenever you have a scared or holy (ideology ) where people follow the prophet of this ideology and consider him the perfect human who don't do mistakes and should be considered and copied as a role model  ( then this role model should be moral and ethical enough other ways we might end up with 2 billion people who are confused by moral common sense and there perfect human being )

    now also when the door for interpretation is open , and historical example of the perfect human being doing similar acts , i can totally understand why would ISIS consider them self as true Muslims , and see other Muslims as confused lost Muslims who are victims of there (personal moral common sense and lack of Islamic history understanding )

    ..........................

    now to understand other Muslims who condemn ISIS  i will give you example of the people who i know best

    (ME two years ago before i renounced Islam , my family , most of my surrounding ) every one i know find ISIS completely insane and un Islamic  even i was astonished on HOW WOULD THEY EVEN CLAM THEY ARE MUSLIMS Huh??

    until i went deeper into Islam and deeper into Mohamed history , you see the Islam i grew up with what they teach us in schools in the capital cities is selected clean , censored , beautiful verses , when ever we question any thing we either get the reply of god work in mysterious way or simply your human understanding is limited and we shouldn't question Allah or his profit if i asked about slavery or women treatment in Islam i get sugar  coated answers to numb my anger and stop my questioning .

    so i understood that i cant be a muslim after realizing that i cant approve most of the things that i later on knew about the prophet history which no one told me about while being muslim

    i used to watch david wood videos on youtube and hear about stuff i never knew before and then as native arabic speaker just go to muslim web site and see how they justify it just to make sure it was true .

    so who is true muslim ? I guess those who know islam better , not the ignorant un educated poor who cant read or write and being used for other porpuses , nor the civilized middle class who are spoon fed islam to make it look what it isn?t

    You are educated when you have the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or self-confidence.
     Robert Frost

    ?Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.?

    ― Andr? Gide
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #34 - Yesterday at 02:58 PM

    I struggle with this idea of who is a muslim and who is not a muslim.

    Surely the fact that most muslims don't follow the bad verses indicates that islam is being reformed. regardless of whether they are aware of the 'true' origins of their religion. Most Christians aren't aware of what's in their bible yet they are not labelled 'not Christian'
     
    Why should a Muslim who chooses to ignore the bad verses be labelled as 'not Muslim'?



  • Question to muslims
     Reply #35 - Yesterday at 04:32 PM

    i used to watch david wood videos on youtube and hear about stuff i never knew before and then as native arabic speaker just go to muslim web site and see how they justify it just to make sure it was true .



    I wish david wood would apply the same critical thinking to his own religion too.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #36 - Today at 01:50 AM

    I struggle with this idea of who is a muslim and who is not a muslim.

    Surely the fact that most muslims don't follow the bad verses indicates that islam is being reformed. regardless of whether they are aware of the 'true' origins of their religion. Most Christians aren't aware of what's in their bible yet they are not labelled 'not Christian'
     
    Why should a Muslim who chooses to ignore the bad verses be labelled as 'not Muslim'?






    I talk about that all the time. What is Islam? A history? Is it the verses? The living tradition? I decided it would be nothing without it's followers. Islam is what is being practiced. Hassan wants Muslims to accept the Quran as useful or helpful, but not Divine. If his view catches on it would give reformation and progressive movements a real torch.

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
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