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 Topic: Question to muslims

 (Read 2574 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Question to muslims
     OP - March 11, 2017, 11:01 AM

    Are Isis (Daesh) authentic Muslims or false Muslims ? and why ?
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #1 - March 11, 2017, 05:09 PM

    Why is your question to Muslims? No one else can have a valid and pertinent opinion?

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #2 - March 12, 2017, 09:46 PM

    My question is not only to Muslims (I don't say only for muslims)
     Is there a diference between islam of Isis and islam of Quran and sunna ?
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #3 - March 12, 2017, 10:32 PM

    You know that more or less every group and sect within Islam claims to follow the Quran and sunnah of the Prophet? It's all about interpretation. I would say, of course ISIS has basis for their interpretation in the scriptures. But so has a lot of other people who would not agree with ISIS. I would also say that those behind ISIS have other motivations and reasons than religious, it just so happens that it suits their agenda and they can motivate their followers by referring to the religious texts...
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #4 - March 12, 2017, 10:32 PM

    Yes, there is. Islam of Quran is different from Islam of Sunnah from Islam of ISIS. The canon is immense. Everybody cherry picks what they want to follow or believe, out of necessity. To embrace every verse and every hadith would require contradictory practices.
    This is why we have sects and madhabs. So the Wahabbis do differ from the Hanafis, the Shia, the Shafi'i, the Hanbali, the Maliki, the Ahmadiyya and etc. etc.
    Are ISIS Wahab or are they Salaf? No idea. I am sure someone else would know what they claim to be, besides "True Muslims"as they call themselves.  

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #5 - March 13, 2017, 11:46 PM

    William McCants' "ISIS Apocalypse" p.151 says that ISIS fiqh is based on the "Wahhabis" generally. Where ISIS differ from the Wahhabis of today is that Wahhabis recognise the Ibn Sauds as kings; ISIS thinks it's found the caliph.

    Basically ISIS follows Ibn Kathir following on Ibn Taymiya:
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/en/originals/2014/08/religious-origins-of-islamic-extremism.html

    Mainstream Salafis, who also follow Ibn Kathir and Ibn Taymiya, do have arguments against ISIS, but that doesn't matter. ISIS will do what it wants, and what it wants is what it finds in those particular jurists.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #6 - March 14, 2017, 12:18 AM

    Well thank you! So there we are. I haven't ever met a false Muslim, by the way. Only different kinds of Muslims. When someone tells me they are a false Muslim I will let you know.

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #7 - March 14, 2017, 10:49 AM

    To answer the question "What is a real muslim?" presumes that there is a god who is actually dictated the Koran and is passing judgement, dividing those who are following it properly from those who aren't.  There isn't.

    The "real muslim" thing is a political discussion, meant to separate Daesh in the minds of westerners from the rest of muslims.  In this regard, yes, Deash is not typical of muslims in general.  But since the people here for the most part no longer identify as muslim, I would imagine there is little interest in arguments over who is/is not a muslim.  This is unfortunately a question too many muslims are obsessed with and willing to hate and kill over.

    Caveat: I of course can only truly speak for myself.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #8 - March 16, 2017, 05:21 PM

    You know that more or less every group and sect within Islam claims to follow the Quran and sunnah of the Prophet? It's all about interpretation. I would say, of course ISIS has basis for their interpretation in the scriptures. But so has a lot of other people who would not agree with ISIS. I would also say that those behind ISIS have other motivations and reasons than religious, it just so happens that it suits their agenda and they can motivate their followers by referring to the religious texts...

    What is the diference between interpretation of ISIS and interpretation of other people who would not agree with ISIS.
    I think that every body have other motivations and reasons than religious, the best example is Muhammad He wanted to conquer the whole planet
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #9 - March 16, 2017, 05:25 PM

    Yes, there is. Islam of Quran is different from Islam of Sunnah from Islam of ISIS. The canon is immense. Everybody cherry picks what they want to follow or believe, out of necessity. To embrace every verse and every hadith would require contradictory practices.
    This is why we have sects and madhabs. So the Wahabbis do differ from the Hanafis, the Shia, the Shafi'i, the Hanbali, the Maliki, the Ahmadiyya and etc. etc.
    Are ISIS Wahab or are they Salaf? No idea. I am sure someone else would know what they claim to be, besides "True Muslims"as they call themselves.  

    There is no important diference between the Hanafis, the Shia, the Shafi'i, the Hanbali, the Maliki, etc
    There is no important diference between Wahab and Salaf. Salaf is the islam of Muhammad
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #10 - March 16, 2017, 05:28 PM


    Mainstream Salafis, who also follow Ibn Kathir and Ibn Taymiya, do have arguments against ISIS,

    ISIS are Salafis
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #11 - March 16, 2017, 06:19 PM

    There is no important diference between the Hanafis, the Shia, the Shafi'i, the Hanbali, the Maliki, etc
    There is no important diference between Wahab and Salaf. Salaf is the islam of Muhammad


    There are very important differences between the Madhabs and the newer movements. Why do you deny it?

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #12 - March 16, 2017, 08:50 PM

    Salaf is the islam of Muhammad

    This definitely isn't true.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #13 - March 17, 2017, 07:42 PM

    There are very important differences between the Madhabs and the newer movements. Why do you deny it?

    What is the newer movements ?
    https://www.google.fr/search?hl=en&site=webhp&q=the+newer+movements&oq=the+newer+movements&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.2417.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..64.serp..0.0.0.4OceX9iC2Os
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #14 - March 17, 2017, 08:05 PM

    This definitely isn't true.

    What means Pub Regular ? Are you Muslim or Ex-Muslim or other ?
    Shows us one thing that ISIS did and that does not conform to the Koran and the sunna

    In addition, 15 videos on Islam & ISIS
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mSLSzugDfw

    In arabic or french
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMCdHL7-g_Q&feature=youtu.be

  • Question to muslims
     Reply #15 - March 17, 2017, 10:01 PM

    Things ISIS does that cannot be found in Quran or Sunnah:
    http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/490681/Islamic-State-ISIS-Daesh-Drugs-Pills-Syria-Captagon-UN-United-Nations-Trafficking-War

    Also: Driving cars. Using automatic weaponry. Burning Oilfields. Internet. Telephone. Mobile Phone. Covering their faces to conceal identity. Dressing prisoners in Orange. Making videos. Blowing up shit and killing people in other countries without intent to conquer said countries. Arrogance. Mayhem. Bragging. Taking Muslim girls from other countries without any permission of their fathers or brothers or wali. Hacking.
    Hopefully someone will add more.

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #16 - March 17, 2017, 10:02 PM



    Any Islamic movement or ideology of the last three hundred years, not to be found before such time.

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #17 - March 18, 2017, 09:37 AM

    Things ISIS does that cannot be found in Quran or Sunnah:
    http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/490681/Islamic-State-ISIS-Daesh-Drugs-Pills-Syria-Captagon-UN-United-Nations-Trafficking-War

    Also: Driving cars. Using automatic weaponry. Burning Oilfields. Internet. Telephone. Mobile Phone. Covering their faces to conceal identity. Dressing prisoners in Orange. Making videos. Blowing up shit and killing people in other countries without intent to conquer said countries. Arrogance. Mayhem. Bragging. Taking Muslim girls from other countries without any permission of their fathers or brothers or wali. Hacking.
    Hopefully someone will add more.

    On drugs, they are assumptions, not certainties. But even if it were true, Islam says : 8:60 And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier...
    Driving cars. Using automatic weaponry , etc is not forbiden
    Burning fields is mentionned in Coran
    On Hacking
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim-Meccan_Conflict

    Taking girls from other countries
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Rape_in_Islam
    Everything you don't know about Islam
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #18 - March 18, 2017, 09:45 AM

    Any Islamic movement or ideology of the last three hundred years, not to be found before such time.

    What are the names of these Islamic movements ? And why last three hundred years ? Why not last ten hundred years or last ten years ?
    What are the differences between the Madhabs and these newer movements ?
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #19 - March 18, 2017, 05:23 PM

    On drugs, they are assumptions, not certainties. But even if it were true, Islam says : 8:60 And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier...
    Driving cars. Using automatic weaponry , etc is not forbiden
    Burning fields is mentionned in Coran
    On Hacking
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim-Meccan_Conflict

    Taking girls from other countries
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Rape_in_Islam
    Everything you don't know about Islam
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page


    Um, no. You asked for what was NOT MENTIONED in Quran or Sunnah. I gave you a list and that list is valid, still. These things are not mentioned anywhere in those two canon. Oilfields are certainly NOT mentioned in Quran nor Sunnah.

    Your reference on hacking refers to monetary benefits to Muhammad and his lackeys, not spreading mayhem. Indeed, he negotiated treaties of passage with merchants in your link. Trade is not what I am referring to or why I added hacking to the list.

    Your reference to rape does not mention anything about contacting a woman from a country that you are NOT at war with and enticing her away from her Muslim family for marriage- which is what I was referring to. This is not the proper Islamic way to arrange a marriage, and we all know it, just as we all know ISIS is very guilty of it.

    Quran and Sunnah do not permit nor deny a person anything in my list, because they are NOT mentioned at all. So as you can find ways to make them permissible, so I similarly can use fiqh to make them haram. We can even have a scholar fight, which is always great fun- and that is sarcasm. Because there is nothing specific ever said about anything on my list. I am dead positive that if you appeal to Al Azhar on any of these issues that institution will announce them to be haram.

    ISIS grasps at straws and does what everyone else does, which is to pick and choose what parts of Islam they want to follow. There is nothing special about them in that regard, for if they were "true" to Islam they would also take to heart and practice all the injunctions regarding peace and mercy and kindness. This would cause them to be violent and kind by turns, because both characteristics are exhorted in Islamic texts. No one person can embrace all of Islam at once, because it is contradictory. Maybe by design and definitely by volume, the fact is that we can twist it however we want to, because we have so many choices. You can whittle this confusion down by choosing a path, a madhab, a sect. I chose what seemed least restrictive, and ISIS chooses what is most restrictive, unless it be something they can justify (and everything can be justified with the vast amount of canon) like drugs. Everybody has their preferences.

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #20 - March 18, 2017, 05:31 PM

    What are the names of these Islamic movements ? And why last three hundred years ? Why not last ten hundred years or last ten years ?
    What are the differences between the Madhabs and these newer movements ?


    You asked what is newer, and in my opinion, it is the movements of the last few hundred years. The differences are in the sources, the madhabs draw upon the four Imams and most of what comes after that does not. So the newer movements are rehashing old material in new ways that the four Imams did not. I do support some of the new movements as I believe some progression has to be made over time, but most I am disappointed with. I am particularly disappointed with those who discount or insult the original paths and claim superiority. Of course I am mostly ignorant of Shi'ism, so I just threw out a number, as I know more about what has happened with movements in this past century (thus influenced most heavily by the preceding century).

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #21 - March 19, 2017, 10:04 AM

    Um, no. You asked for what was NOT MENTIONED in Quran or Sunnah.

    Your reference on hacking refers to monetary benefits to Muhammad and his lackeys,

    about contacting a woman from a country that you are NOT at war with and enticing her away from her Muslim family for marriage- which is what I was referring to. This is not the proper Islamic way to arrange a marriage,

    Quran and Sunnah do not permit nor deny a person anything in my list,

     if they were "true" to Islam they would also take to heart and practice all the injunctions regarding peace and mercy and kindness.

     a madhab,


    I asked for what ISIS did and that does not conform to the Koran and the sunna
    Driving cars. Using automatic weaponry. Burning Oilfields. Telephone. Mobile Phone. Covering their faces to conceal identity. Dressing prisoners in Orange killing non-muslim people are not prohibited (haram)

    ISIS never never took Muslim girls from other countries, it's impossible

    hacking for me is attack of civilian caravans

    About Muslim girls who go to Syria, see Ibn Ishaq, "The life of Muhammad" by A. GUILLAUME page 509 (the women who emigrated). Furthermore Muhammed violating the treaty of Hudaybiyya

    Quran and Sunnah do not deny anything in your list, but permit :  Driving cars (camels) Using (automatic) weaponry. Burning (Oil)fields. Changing their faces to conceal identity (in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhla_raid
    . killing people. Hacking.

    Islam is not a religion of peace, if you want to know why , see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOPhr0UQ9wc
    In islam, there is no mercy and kindness with non muslims



  • Question to muslims
     Reply #22 - March 19, 2017, 10:10 AM

    You asked what is newer, and in my opinion, it is the movements of the last few hundred years. The differences are in the sources, the madhabs draw upon the four Imams and most of what comes after that does not. So the newer movements are rehashing old material in new ways that the four Imams did not. I do support some of the new movements as I believe some progression has to be made over time, but most I am disappointed with. I am particularly disappointed with those who discount or insult the original paths and claim superiority. Of course I am mostly ignorant of Shi'ism, so I just threw out a number, as I know more about what has happened with movements in this past century (thus influenced most heavily by the preceding century).

    The debate is no possible if you are not able to give the names of these Islamic movements and cite one by one the differences with  the madhabs
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #23 - March 19, 2017, 02:27 PM

    There is no way I am going to spend years picking apart fiqh particular to madhabs and contrasting it with speeches given by these newer scholars in each of their movements.
    You go ahead.

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #24 - March 19, 2017, 02:42 PM

    I asked for what ISIS did and that does not conform to the Koran and the sunna
    Driving cars. Using automatic weaponry. Burning Oilfields. Telephone. Mobile Phone. Covering their faces to conceal identity. Dressing prisoners in Orange killing non-muslim people are not prohibited (haram)

    ISIS never never took Muslim girls from other countries, it's impossible

    hacking for me is attack of civilian caravans

    About Muslim girls who go to Syria, see Ibn Ishaq, "The life of Muhammad" by A. GUILLAUME page 509 (the women who emigrated). Furthermore Muhammed violating the treaty of Hudaybiyya

    Quran and Sunnah do not deny anything in your list, but permit :  Driving cars (camels) Using (automatic) weaponry. Burning (Oil)fields. Changing their faces to conceal identity (in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhla_raid
    . killing people. Hacking.

    Islam is not a religion of peace, if you want to know why , see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOPhr0UQ9wc
    In islam, there is no mercy and kindness with non muslims






    I don't watch scholar videos unless they are live and interactive, or female. So thanks for the bearded links but you can watch them yourself. Knock yourself out. 

    There are British Muslim girls who went missing in highly publicized cases because they were given money and directions by ISIS handlers and they were not seen by their parents again and nor were their parents consulted on their engagements. How did you not see this on the news?

    Quran and Sunnah do not mention any of the things I listed. You make them permissible by verses on war and etc, but they are not permitted nor even addressed anywhere in Quran and Sunnah. What you make permissible I can make haram.

    I can take Hadith about being kind to animals and expand the meaning to ban automatic weaponry. I can take verse on not spreading chaos and use it to make all harmful acts haram. You can take your verses and use them however you want to. It says far more about you than it does about Islam.

    This is the point where people start to explain that only scholars can interpret verse, and then we have a scholar war. After quoting from a scholar one of us then states why that scholar is unacceptable or has changed his mind on the meaning and therefore this fatwa cannot be used.

    Then one of us remembers that Quran is supposed to be simple, for all to understand, and perhaps we can skip the scholars and resolve the issue ourselves from Quran. We can then have a war of verses - but that puts us into one of the domains of the newer movements.

    You are taking what you like best from Islamic canon and claiming there is nothing to the contrary. But there is. There are plenty of verses on being kind and doing good and plenty of rulings on how to conduct oneself responsibly. Shooting people and burning oilfields and stealing people is not good nor kind. So why ignore all the verses on living peacefully? To further your aims. Why do you wish to believe Islam promotes only violence and strict interpretations that can only be relaxed if more harm needs to be done (taking drugs to fight)? That is only a question that you can answer. Why do you wish Islam to be a religion of harm? Why do you ignore the rest of the faith, as if it had no meaning, no application?

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #25 - March 19, 2017, 03:48 PM


    This muslim explain why islam is not a religion of peace : the term islam not means peace and holy war is the 2nd most mentioned item after oneness [of God] in the qoran

    Give us proofs that they were given money and directions by ISIS. But even if it were true, see the example of Muslim women who go to Medina coming from Mecca, see Ibn Ishaq, "The life of Muhammad" by A. GUILLAUME page 509 (the women who emigrated)

    About things you listed, see my answer

    If you want, you can take Hadith about being kind to animals and expand the meaning to ban automatic weaponry.

    I didn't mentioned scholars or fatwa

    Quran is not simple because it is written in a language that no longer exists: the dialect of Mecca of the 7th century

    What you neglect is that peaceful verses and the verses on doing good have been written before the Hegira at this time Muhammad don't had army.
    Between two verses that contradict it is normal to apply only the most recent, and the most recent verses concern war and hate against non muslims


  • Question to muslims
     Reply #26 - March 19, 2017, 04:15 PM

    Salaf is the islam of Muhammad

    This definitely isn't true.

    What means Pub Regular ? Are you Muslim or Ex-Muslim or other ?

    Pub regular - a regular visitor to the site who isn't a Muslim or ex-Muslim.
    Quote
    Shows us one thing that ISIS did and that does not conform to the Koran and the sunna

    I'll leave that to other people. I was responding to your claim that 'Salaf is the Islam of Muhammad'. My point is that we don't know really much about the historical Muhammad. The Qur'an was compiled and edited after his death, maybe a couple of decades later. Much of the text must also have been composed after his death and the belief system and theology had clearly changed over that time. Parts of the text may or may not represent the words of Muhammad - it's open to argument - but they're likely to be representative of his views in some way at least. Other parts probably pre-date him. Essentially what we have is a composite text that was later attributed to a prominent political and religious leader. It isn't clear that we can even say that Islam existed in a meaningful sense during Muhammad's lifetime. It's a belief system and religion that crystallised in the generations afterwards. Accounts of his life and collections of his sayings developed much later. They probably contain a kernel of truth, but for the most part they represent myth not history. Muhammad's life as understood by Sunni Muslims a couple of centuries later can only have had a distant relationship with historical reality.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #27 - March 19, 2017, 05:22 PM

    Let me say up front, as will be clear from my post, that I have never been and never will be a Muslim.  I am a Westerner who grew up in the Anglican tradition in the UK and then branched out from there in the US.  I am Christian, but extremely unorthodox and disagree with some Christian theology and agree with some Muslim interpretations (as far as I can observe and understand them).

    I have been trying to understand Islam off an on for around 10 years.  I have visited Jordan on a peace mission to deliver aid packages to Iraqi refugees and I have read several of the available histories of Islam.  The histories of Tom Holland, Patricia Crone, Robert Hoyland and Ohlig and Puin (Secret History of Islam).  I am conscious that it is one thing to criticize your own home, but when a stranger like me makes the same points it will rightfully be resented.   All that said ... here goes.

    Islam is the only major religion I know of that:

    1. Had a warlord polygamist prophet as its founder.
    2. Has much political and legal content that discriminates against non believers and women.
    3. Began spreading thru military conquest from its very beginnings (Chrisitanity is also guilty .. but centuries after its founding when it became the official religion of Rome).  
    4. Is openly hegemonistic and aggressive in spreading itself without interest or respect for the cultures hosting new muslim immigrant communities.  In fact Islam is highly defensive and critical and uses 'Taqiya' tactics to mask its true nature and goals from Western eyes.
    5. So much 'scriptural content' devoted to conquest and aggression.

    So at this point, like many Westerners in Europe and America I view Islam as most similar to a religious form of Fascism.  Historians of German Fascism have opined that if only Western leaders had read 'Mein Kampf' they would have clearly understood what Hitler and the Nazis were going to do. German Fascism believed in the racial superiority of the German Volk.  Islam believes in the superiority of it's doctrines and its community.   Similarly we can read the Quran and the Hadith and see exactly what fate awaits us non-muslims if we let it go too far.   As a Fascist force physically and culturally threatening to the host countries in the West I believe it must be fought, very hard, intellectually, spiritually, criminally and militarily when necessary.  It is a matter of the cultural survival of the West as I know it and love it.   Trump, Wilders and other right wing politicians that have emerged recently are a direct result of perceptions like those I cite above.  They are just the first wave.   If they cannot stem the tide and change the course we are on, then civil political institutions will be perceived by too many Europeans and Americans as unable to defend us, and harsher leaders will take over.

    My question would be: can Islam in the West reform and become peaceful before politics gets too ugly - leading to a 'soft landing' as Douglas Murray sometimes describes it, or will there be a 'hard landing' - meaning much violence.   I personally doubt this doctrine contrived in late antiquity by leadership of the the militarily victorious Arab tribes of Mesopotamia can be reformed.  The precedents suggest 'hard landing'.   Fascism and Communism weren't reformed - they were fought until they died under the weight of their own evil.  

    Apologies for such a depressing post.

  • Question to muslims
     Reply #28 - March 19, 2017, 08:56 PM

    Unifier, I understand your view. But the canonical text is at odds with Islamic practice in most of the world until quite recently.
    I also tried to label and understand Islam from the Quran and Sunnah, but that is not enough. What most Muslims find helpful in their daily lives are not verses on raping slaves, but verses offering general advice on how to live.
    Is Islam it's origins, it's history, or it's Ummah?
    They are not all the same thing. ISIS is trying to reconcile origins by citing history and creating an Ummah based on the strictest interpretations. Most Muslims think this is wrong and want not a damn thing to do with it.
    Who is right?
    The majority of Muslims, or ISIS? Scholars who advocate harm, or the Muslim majority who refuse to harm? Which is Islam?
    If Islam were as harsh as you say, most Muslims would have flocked to Syria instead of denouncing or ignoring ISIS.
    Most Muslims had never heard of taqqiya until a few years ago, and I had never heard of it until after I left.
    What most Muslims understand of Islamic practice is not this Saudi shit shoved down our throats the past few decades. It used to be something else entirely, more varied and benign.

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Question to muslims
     Reply #29 - March 19, 2017, 09:02 PM

    This muslim explain why islam is not a religion of peace : the term islam not means peace and holy war is the 2nd most mentioned item after oneness [of God] in the qoran

    Give us proofs that they were given money and directions by ISIS. But even if it were true, see the example of Muslim women who go to Medina coming from Mecca, see Ibn Ishaq, "The life of Muhammad" by A. GUILLAUME page 509 (the women who emigrated)

    About things you listed, see my answer

    If you want, you can take Hadith about being kind to animals and expand the meaning to ban automatic weaponry.

    I didn't mentioned scholars or fatwa

    Quran is not simple because it is written in a language that no longer exists: the dialect of Mecca of the 7th century

    What you neglect is that peaceful verses and the verses on doing good have been written before the Hegira at this time Muhammad don't had army.
    Between two verses that contradict it is normal to apply only the most recent, and the most recent verses concern war and hate against non muslims




    If Quran is not simple to understand then you would not be Muslim. Muslims know Quran says it is easy to understand, quite clear, and they interpret it as such. Most Muslims are not ignoring the verses abrogated by order given, but reading Quran as a whole message, Divine. If the Makkah verses are useless, why are they in Quran at all?
    So either you deny part of Quran (apostate) or you accept Quran as is (Muslim). Only one of those choices will include you in the Ummah.
    So most Muslims are not throwing out half the text as you claim. ISIS might be, but we already know how most Muslims feel about how they interpret canon.

    I don't need to prove it. The UK police already did that in the most well known cases.

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
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