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 Topic: Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group

 (Read 6763 times)
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  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #150 - March 20, 2017, 04:18 PM

    I'm just going to leave this here as well, as we're talking about "terrorist groups" and people who actually "riot, set shit on fire, and beat people up."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots

    "God will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Make me and my mother gods beside God?" Qur'an 5:116

    "I told them clearly that I am a man...and that they should never make a mistake in assuming or pretending that the human being is emanated from a deity." - Haile Selassie
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #151 - March 21, 2017, 01:11 AM

    Compared to reparations, a much more progressive income and other tax policy would have a bigger positive impact than reparations anyway. In addition, you wouldn't have to go through the trouble of figuring out generations old chains of victims and perpetrators, as you would with reparations, so there's that plus as well.

    Not that we're at all likely to get either with Republicans controlling all major branches of government now...


    Yeah, any kind of helpful policy would be nice.

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #152 - March 21, 2017, 02:11 PM

    @ Gal. I’m not going to go back and forth with you on your gaslighting of racism and its effects in the United States. It’s an exercise in futility; your true colors are already shining through. All I will say is that so long as so many people in this country think like you – perpetuating stereotypes about black people wanting to be “dead before 30” and “glorifying thug life,” we black people will clearly have an uphill battle to fight as we continue to do what the Irish, the Jews, and the Italians have done – pulling ourselves up from our shoestrings in the face of prejudice. If your posts are indicative of the sorts of things that come to your mind when you think about black people, then it is no wonder we continue to face the discrimination that we do.  




    What, do I need to put #NotAllBlacks in every post? Obviously there are plenty of people who HAVE gotten out of the ghetto or were never there in the first place. Obviously not all black people agree with/aspire to "thug life"/"dead before 30". But the fact remains that most of the multi-generational poor inner city inhabitants are black. We can argue about why that's true but there's no way to argue that it's false.

    If I thought that black people were just inherently worse people, I wouldn't even try to talk people out of BLM, I'd just say "oh look, yet another group of violent black people, here's hoping the cops put them down like the filthy animals they are". But that's not what I'm saying, and the reason why I'm not saying that is that that's not what I believe. I think lots of young people are being lied to about why they're in the social position they are in and who is to blame for it, and as a result they're agitating for a ill-informed solution that will only make things worse for everyone, including them.

    And you still haven't addressed my point about Asians or Hispanics.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #153 - March 21, 2017, 05:49 PM

    Right. Not all blacks. Let me guess, you’ve had black friends. And they were good people. Roll Eyes

    I already told you I’m not going to go back and forth with you on the issue of the effects of racism in America. The systemic abuse is well documented and go beyond your active imagination and hypothetical scenarios. This includes, but is not limited to, racially biased zoning laws in America’s large cities, discriminatory lending practices for which specific laws have had to be constructed in order to stop lenders from practicing, and the codified segregation and abusive laws that existed in the Southern states up until living memory. This is coupled with the fact that as black people, we can’t just stop being black when it’s convenient, triggering the biases and preconceived notions of people often in the position of the upper hand.

    The situation in America is not the same as the situation in Britain, China, or any other random country with black people. The link I posted to Bogart earlier represents a good start at documentation of the sort of unique, entrenched abuse that African Americans have been subjected to. Read the whole thing, please.

    And again, are you seriously asking me about Hispanic gangs? Seriously? The same can be said of Asian gangs on a smaller scale in the US.

    I can’t speak much specifically about Hispanic or Asian gangs in this country, as I have neither experience nor subject matter expertise with either. The Hispanic population in my city exploded by about 400% according to the last estimates I’ve heard, but that was after I’d graduated high school. Growing up, my city was about 50% black.

    The question, however, is not a matter of what ethnic groups begin to form gangs, but what factors unique to the United States cause those gangs to form and to be divided typically along racial lines. Amongst African Americans, the factors that cause some young men to join gangs are more often than not symptomatic of larger environmental ills caused specifically by the sorts of created, systemic problems I described above.

    The point I was making to you earlier is that no one group has a standing monopoly on gangs and “thug life.” Deprive any living being of opportunity and create a hostile environment of fear and oppression, and the reaction will almost uniformly be to join together with similar creatures for affinity and protection and to exploit whatever leftover opportunities present themselves. This is true even amongst animals.

    In fact, the groups you compared African Americans against in your earlier posts were forbearers of criminal activity and virtually paved the way for organized crime in the same cities we are discussing now. They are “glorified” even today in some of our nation’s most esteemed works. (The Godfather, anyone?) It seems foolish to call out African Americans for involvement gangs as some sort of anomaly given the circumstances.  

    There is more I could write, specifically on the erasure of African culture amongst those who were kidnapped and enslaved, leaving them to have to literally create a culture from scratch that was representative not primarily of their history and aspirations, but of their current struggles - but I don’t have the time for that right now. My lunch is over.

    "God will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Make me and my mother gods beside God?" Qur'an 5:116

    "I told them clearly that I am a man...and that they should never make a mistake in assuming or pretending that the human being is emanated from a deity." - Haile Selassie
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #154 - March 21, 2017, 10:20 PM

    The question, however, is not a matter of what ethnic groups begin to form gangs, but what factors unique to the United States cause those gangs to form and to be divided typically along racial lines. Amongst African Americans, the factors that cause some young men to join gangs are more often than not symptomatic of larger environmental ills caused specifically by the sorts of created, systemic problems I described above.

    The point I was making to you earlier is that no one group has a standing monopoly on gangs and “thug life.” Deprive any living being of opportunity and create a hostile environment of fear and oppression, and the reaction will almost uniformly be to join together with similar creatures for affinity and protection and to exploit whatever leftover opportunities present themselves. This is true even amongst animals.


    Yes, this! Exactly this. The point I was trying to make by bringing up the other examples was that it's not related to race. And because it's not related to race, just saying "white people are the problem", like cato was doing, is overly simplistic and ultimately self-defeating, because if the goal is to end the desperation that drives people to criminality, it doesn't matter what color or gender the people in power are, the people who are in poverty have to want to pursue opportunities and have to want to give up criminality in favor of making their own lives better. If you just take money and political positions from white people or herd white people into ghettos and deprive them of opportunities, or men, or whatever group, like I've seen a lot of people advocating for recently, then you're just going to end up with the exact same problem of crime and hopelessness because it's not the race part that's the problem.


    It seems foolish to call out African Americans for involvement gangs as some sort of anomaly given the circumstances.  


    It's not that they're worse than other groups, it's that they're the main ones doing it NOW. Kind of like it's not very necessary to call out modern Christianity for the Crusades or modern Judaism for the Maccabees when you're trying to highlight the problem of Islamic extremism, but it can be useful to bring up those examples to try to figure out what happened that made those religions not as violent. Yes, other religions are equally capable of violent totalitarianism, but Islam is the one doing it NOW, so what can we do to tame Islam like Christianity and Judaism got tamed. So, when we're looking at how to fix the problem of gang violence NOW, the big question isn't "what race are the people involved" but "how did other groups get out of this same situation and what lessons can we learn from what they did to apply to the people who need help now".



    I feel like a lot of the time, people totally miss the point of what I'm trying to say. But hey, that's hardly a new problem for me, I'm used to dealing with it. As far as I can tell, it's always been this way. The problem seems to be that I think in shorthand (instead of "If x, when taking into consideration y, then z", I just go "if x?y, then obviously.") and then other people are unable to translate that shorthand and extrapolate y, so they can't work out z. My main tactic for dealing with this is generally to state x and then try to point people in the general direction of y and then have them give a lengthy explanation of z, so they do the legwork of explaining it and thinking it through themselves.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #155 - March 22, 2017, 12:46 AM

    Umm. If what you've been trying to say all along was actually meant to be in agreement with what I said above, then you really - and I mean really - need to work on your ability to convey ideas.  Smiley

    Still, though. No point dragging out a disagreement if we don't actually disagree.

    Cheers.
     cheers

    Actually, edit: There's a contradiction in your post that lets me know we probably don't agree as much as I'd hoped, but I'll tackle that another time.

    "God will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Make me and my mother gods beside God?" Qur'an 5:116

    "I told them clearly that I am a man...and that they should never make a mistake in assuming or pretending that the human being is emanated from a deity." - Haile Selassie
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #156 - March 22, 2017, 03:08 AM

    That is a fantastic link, that story by Ta-Nehisi Coates. That is the America I have known. I don't know how anyone can live here (of any color) and not see at least some of this, at least the tip of it, even in the North.
    Below that bit that is readily apparent from time to time, here and there, is a monster, larger than anyone wants to believe.
    No one can tell me that we can't afford reparations after Trump's budget proposal. I had no idea we had not even done the footwork on it, isn't that telling? I think so.
    I am going to stop arguing the points and direct people to this article instead. He says it better than I ever could and has better sources.

    I don't want to be good anymore. I want to be right.
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #157 - March 22, 2017, 09:16 AM

    Compared to reparations, a much more progressive income and other tax policy would have a bigger positive impact than reparations anyway. In addition, you wouldn't have to go through the trouble of figuring out generations old chains of victims and perpetrators, as you would with reparations, so there's that plus as well.


    Special privilege that is not extend to all citizens is just as bad.

    Edit*

    I think policy that can be used by all but will benefit minorities the most would be a voucher program for schools. I believe a transportation voucher should also be created in order to accommodate the restrictions on the ability to travel due to income; work hours, distances, availability of transportation. This can benefit a lot of people within a lower income bracket as education seems to be a primary issue in my eyes. Based on my experience of both public and private I would pick private over public.
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #158 - March 22, 2017, 09:17 AM

    Umm. If what you've been trying to say all along was actually meant to be in agreement with what I said above, then you really - and I mean really - need to work on your ability to convey ideas.  Smiley



    Thanks for being ableist, asshole.  [/sarcasm]

    Yeah, I know, it seems a consequence of my thought process skipping around like I mentioned in my last post (which is more than likely caused by my bipolar and brain damage caused by having my extremely severe bipolar unmedicated throughout my childhood) and apparent moderate to severe damage to the corpus callosum. Basically I have a lot of psychological and neurological quirks that you normally only see in split-brain patients, and since I'm not a split-brain patient, there is probably some brain damage--multiple doctors have given me neurologist referrals but I'm not ready to go do that because I'm sure that whatever they find will be extremely interesting, but I'm not ready to read it. I'm insanely self-critical, but that doesn't fix the problem, so the best work-around I have found is to have a gay man with bipolar disorder (seriously, I don't know why it's got to be that specific combination but I'm on my third one so there must be some reason why it has to be that) process my thoughts and point out where I missed a step. That's why I do my more structured videos with Jakob.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #159 - March 22, 2017, 10:45 AM

    So in other words, it's all about your argument or all about you when the argument isn't received as you'd like.

    This is what we polemics afficionados tend to call "a dick move".
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #160 - March 22, 2017, 10:51 AM

    So in other words, it's all about your argument or all about you when the argument isn't received as you'd like.

    This is what we polemics afficionados tend to call "a dick move".


    While I do have an unfortunate affinity for trying to make everything about me, I don't think that's what I did in this thread; I think my personal anecdotes were related to the thread in the sense that they give context to how my opinions on the subject were formulated and the reasons why I hold those opinions. And as for explaining why I don't always express myself in the most optimal possible way, while you may consider it a dick move, I think it lends context to the accusations and insinuations that I'm a racist. Which from my perspective are dick moves, since I don't think that my points were racist.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #161 - March 22, 2017, 03:09 PM

    You can argue that the laws are unfair or unfairly applied, that government officials or social services are biased, that there's an inadequate amount of support for the black community, whatever you want--but if your argument does not take into account the agency of black people and their capacity to commit crimes, then it's not going to have the desired effect, no matter how far you push it.

     Roll Eyes
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #162 - March 22, 2017, 03:13 PM

    Agency and capacity ≠ natural predisposition and proclivity

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group
     Reply #163 - March 23, 2017, 03:41 AM

    So let me go into a bit more detail about the difference between "agency and capacity" and "natural predisposition and proclivity".

    In my opinion, "if your argument does not take into account the agency of black people and their capacity to commit crimes, then it's not going to have the desired effect" is not a racist statement. If I were to instead have stated that "if your argument does not take into account the natural predisposition of black people and their proclivity to commit crimes, then it's not going to have the desired effect, no matter how far you push it", that would have been a racist statement. The latter implies that all black people are just mindless animals that have no choice but to commit crimes, that's just their nature, they are unable to make moral choices. Instead, what I was saying was that they have the CHOICE, they have the OPTION of committing crimes or of not committing crimes. We can argue about whether or not there are other options available, but it's still a choice made by individuals to act in a way that is anti-social.

    That's what I was trying to get at when discussing my brother. My brother did not make the choice to be born with psychopathy. He did not make a choice to be horrifically abused as a child. Those two factors combined to make him the violent person he is today, but it is still his own actions, his own choices, that he must suffer the consequences for. Did he have other options available to him, could he have gone against the unfortunate circumstances he found himself in to become a productive and well-adjusted member of society? I honestly don't know, and that's a question for philosophers, not for me. What I do know is that he is a danger to society and that must be remedied.

    A lot of young African Americans find themselves in terrible circumstances that they had no choice in. They did not choose to be born into poverty. They did not choose to grow up without strong parental guidance. They did not choose to have inadequate or sub-par healthcare and education. However, if they then turn to crime, that is still their choice, and if they are then punished for those crimes, that is still their actions that they are being punished for. Did they have other options available? I don't know. But if a person is a danger to society, that must be remedied.

    I do believe that non-violent drug offenses should be treated with rehab and not jail time, and I do believe that we need to invest in urban schools and work schemes, and I do believe that gang violence and criminality is not exclusive to any particular group but is instead most often caused by poverty and desperation, and I do think our criminal system should focus on reducing recidivism vs. filling for-profit prisons with unpaid laborers. But I also believe that people must be held accountable for their own actions. If those actions harm or endanger others, then that must be punished harshly, and that isn't a racist sentiment even though it may dis-proportionally affect one minority over other groups, because it is still the actions of individuals that are being punished, not their skin tone. It is not their race that is the cause of the problem, it is their actions and choices, and so to fix the problem we can't just address race, we have to address their actions and choices, most likely by providing more choices.

    I hope that explains what the difference is in my head.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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