Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.

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- Zeff
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
OP - October 14, 2016, 03:01 PM

I have just watched this excellent documentary about ex-Muslims in Britain. It is very disturbing....
http://player.stv.tv/episode/3da0/exposure/

I have never believed in a god or pantheon. I was raised Roman Catholic and that is permitted (at least in principle). I became considered a "lapsed Catholic" when I told my religious parent I don't believe in god. My parent was very upset but we never discussed it again. There were no perceptible consequences for me and I was not 'less loved'. I certainly wasn't rejected, much less threatened. I feel very sorry for those who have parents who are religion-obsessed and make it the centre of their lives.

One thing that struck me is that non-believers tend to keep using the language with which they were raised. For example, they say they 'gave up their faith'. Better to say that one rejects superstition, including religious superstitions. People should examine the language they use. 'Having faith' makes little sense when it comes to religious faith. One might 'have faith' that a bridge will sustain the weight of traffic crossing it, but that is very different from having religious faith which is wrong because it is wrong to simply 'have faith' in anything. Faith and belief in something should be a matter of degree and not absolute. One should only believe anything to the degree the belief may be justified by reason and evidence. Absolute, blind or learned belief is often harmful. So 'losing faith' can be misleading. People lose nothing by rejecting religious beliefs.
- Helaine
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #1 - October 15, 2016, 03:12 AM

I think that this is the problem many discriminated people face, especially when they're raised in more conservative environment.

Outside of the west, "diversity" is less likely to be celebrated. Conformity is appreciated more.

There are many people who were told that they are bad, low, immoral, etc simply because they are different and they end up believing that they are *lower class* and that they *deserve less*. Loss of confidence, self-control, and any sense of self-worth is more common than you think. It's the reason that social justice is almost non-existent here, because many of the oppressed also believe that they deserve it. That they shouldn't be treated equally. Keep your head down, be positive... ignore real problems :| We are minority so we need to be more understanding of the majority... and the majority can just do what the heck they want.

The documentary is about exmuslims in the west, so it'd be different, but I just thought I'd give some perspective.
- Zeff
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #2 - October 15, 2016, 01:05 PM

Thanks for an interesting reply and perspective, Helaine. I’ve given this some thought....
“Outside of the west, “diversity” is less likely to be celebrated. Conformity is appreciated more.”
I’m not sure about that.

I don’t think I "appreciate diversity" and I’m not sure anyone does who claims to do so. Diversity isn’t good or bad. The question is really about what is acceptable or tolerable, what isn’t, and why. It is also about whether “having faith” excuses practices which range from halal/kosher food (animal rights) to child genital mutilation (children’s rights). Nobody cares if someone goes to a building and chants collective incantations. Insisting on religious courts or segregated schools is quite different. So is chanting gobbledygook from a tower to all and sundry, or ringing bells at unacceptable times or volumes. “Islamic” practices such as birkinis or burkas can make people uncomfortable because it appears people wear them to “send a message”. The message being sent isn’t always the one received and people have diverse opinions on that message – conflicting opinions in fact. I think people often label some disagreements “diversity” to avoid facing serious issues that make them feel uncomfortable. They prefer to dismiss such concerns as “Islamophobia”. Prejudice must never be denied where it exists but I think fear of discussing these issues frankly causes some people to dismiss concern about them as prejudice.

So I don’t see that diversity is more celebrated or conformity more appreciated in one society than another. I think that the level of tolerance in different societies and the ability to compromise varies. That is far more to the point.

We all appreciate diversity without conflict. Everyone can appreciate the Notting Hill Carnival, Indian, Bangladeshi and chinese food and the kind, friendly, hard-working Pakistani of the corner shop. Some diversity conflicts with ‘one law for all’. Some “only” tend to promote segregation instead of inclusion. So it as a matter of which diversity is meant.
- yeezevee
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #3 - October 15, 2016, 04:26 PM

Quote from: Zeff on October 15, 2016, 01:05 PM
Thanks for an interesting reply and perspective, Helaine. I’ve given this some thought....
“Outside of the west, “diversity” is less likely to be celebrated. Conformity is appreciated more.”
I’m not sure about that.

I don’t think I "appreciate diversity" and I’m not sure anyone does who claims to do so. .....

Carnival, Indian, Bangladeshi and chinese food and the kind, friendly, hard-working “Paki” of the corner ...................

It is all good .. it is all di-verse .. tri-verse and mono verse ... but I would greatly appreciate if you could change that word "PAKI" to PAKISTANI ..

paki is a bit derogatory word for people of Pakistan or Pakistani Immigrants

and welcome to CEMB den

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Zeff
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #4 - October 15, 2016, 05:11 PM

I meant no offence and have corrected it as you asked. I put Paki in there aware that some people see it as derogatory. I wondered how it would be taken. It is a matter of communication, like wearing a birkini. Language is not the only way to communicate and what something is intended to convey is not necessarily how it is perceived.

The other point I wanted to convey, though, is that diversity isn't all good, nor automatically good or bad. The diverity you quoted is all good, but not what you omitted: "halal/kosher food (animal rights) to child genital mutilation (children’s rights); ... Insisting on religious courts or segregated schools ... chanting gobbledygook from a tower to all and sundry, or ringing bells at unacceptable times or volumes."

(Thanks for the welcome. It's a pleasure to talk to you :-) )
- yeezevee
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #5 - October 15, 2016, 07:53 PM

Quote from: Zeff on October 15, 2016, 05:11 PM
I meant no offence and have corrected it as you asked. I put Paki in there aware that some people see it as derogatory. I wondered how it would be taken. .........

Oh I see you knew it that word is derogatory yet you use it .. Glad to know that ., So Zeff do you know why that word is derogatory?

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Zeff
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #6 - October 15, 2016, 08:05 PM

I didn't say "I knew it was derogatory". I wrote I was "aware some people see it as derogatory". Some people do not.
Why is it derogatory in your opinion, Yeezevee?
- yeezevee
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Reply #7 - October 15, 2016, 08:13 PM

Quote from: Zeff on October 15, 2016, 08:05 PM
I didn't say "I knew it was derogatory". I wrote I was "aware some people see it as derogatory". Some people do not.

well I guess they don'tknow the difference between "Pak" and "Paki"

Quote
Why is it derogatory in your opinion, Yeezevee?

Why the term 'Paki' is, and always will be offensive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paki_(slur)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6740445.stm

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Zeff
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #8 - October 15, 2016, 08:49 PM

We seem to be in agreement Yeezevee. The first link simply goes to "Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name."

The second link indicates that some people view the word as offensive and some don't. I shall avoid it if you object to it but please don't assume that its use is necessarily and invariably derogatory. That may be your current view, but it isn't universal as the BBC link you posted makes plain, quote: Zak, a 17-year old from Leyton, east London, says he and his friends think nothing of calling each other, "My Paki brother". "Paki is just a short-form of Pakistani," continues Talha, 16. Unquote.

In any case intent is key. My use of it wasn't derogatory to anyone. As the article said, it depends on the associations one makes with it, like 'Paki-bashing' which is offensive to you and I alike. Paki (in my view) should be reclaimed for all of us and mean no more than an abbreviation for Pakistani as Brit is for British.
- Qtian
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #9 - October 15, 2016, 09:39 PM

With all due respect Zeff, you've compelled me to return to the forum in order to LOL.

So...LOL.

Quote
(...) Paki (in my view) should be reclaimed for all of us and mean no more than an abbreviation for Pakistani as Brit is for British.

Quick question before we start - when's the last time you had to embarrass a grown white man for verbally abusing your ageing (still beautiful though, it ain't just black that don't crack) Paki mother, because she's a Paki?

My blood is half Paki so I'll say it all I want. You may only call me a Paki with my explicit permission.

Paki Paki Paki Paki Paki. Paki.

Paki.

Anyhow, Paki can only be reclaimed by those who would be subject to the discrimination surrounding said term. It can never be claimed by the average Tom, Mesut, Richard, Christine, Marius, Juan, Elizabeth, Daniel or Errol.

Anything else is just a shitty embellishment of the zeitgeist.

Tl;dr: Go reclaim another word. Paki isn't up for allocation.

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
- Zeff
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #10 - October 15, 2016, 11:19 PM

Laugh if you like but there are two points of view.

Louts call people's mother Paki and use the word derogatorily. They want it to be a derogatory term.

I think I am in the majority in refusing to see it as derogatory.

You can support either view. Nobody listens to louts but they listen to the opinions of people on this forum. By demanding that Paki invariably be seen as a derogatory term you can succeed where all the louts in the UK could never do. Okay have it your way, to be called a Paki is derogatory.
- Qtian
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #11 - October 15, 2016, 11:53 PM

Hey Zeff,

You're not a Paki. You're never going to face the type of discrimination that a Paki does.

This isn't directed towards you but I prefer louts to paternalistic patronising liberal bigots and their ivory towers.

Nevertheless, words are capricious. Experience matters.

If you think that you have any say in how derogatory "Paki" is to Pakistanis then think again.

Paki is as offensive as Pakis want it to be. Pakis can call each other Pakis as much as they wish. I might not agree with it but they can still get away with it.

You can't.

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
- Qtian
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Reply #12 - October 16, 2016, 12:17 AM

Quote from: Zeff on October 15, 2016, 11:19 PM

I think I am in the majority in refusing to see it as derogatory.

I'd like to know the ethnic breakdown of this majority demographic. How well represented are Pakistanis in the sample?

If Pakistanis aren't the main sampling unit then your majority can fuck off.

Btw, welcome to the forum.

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
- AGirlWithDoubts
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #13 - October 16, 2016, 12:55 AM

Quote from: Zeff on October 15, 2016, 11:19 PM
I think I am in the majority in refusing to see it as derogatory.

Even I that were true, the opinions of those who are not having that word thrown at them as a racial slur on whether the word is or derogatory is irrelevant. So what "the majority" thinks means fuck all

Quote from: Zeff on October 15, 2016, 05:11 PM
I meant no offence and have corrected it as you asked. I put Paki in there aware that some people see it as derogatory. I wondered how it would be taken. It is a matter of communication, like wearing a birkini. Language is not the only way to communicate and what something is intended to convey is not necessarily how it is perceived.

So you joined a forum where British apostates are likely to be in the majority, which would therefore have a sizable number of people who are ethnically Pakistani and South Asian, and thought it would be smart to intentionally insert a racial slur which they might view as derogatory into your introductory post? Where does such logic come from
- Qtian
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Re: Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #14 - October 16, 2016, 08:03 AM

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on October 16, 2016, 12:55 AM
Even I that were true, the opinions of those who are not having that word thrown at them as a racial slur on whether the word is or derogatory is irrelevant. So what "the majority" thinks means fuck all

This. This is exactly why I have zero right to use the N word, even though some of my Jamaican and African friends throw it around haphazardly, and probably wouldn't care if I said it.

I still have no right to use it or to tell them how they should use it. I know where it comes from.

I might get away with not looking Pakistani when I'm clean shaven, but with the facial hair, my South Asian genes shine. When hate comes to town you'd better believe that I'll be labelled as a Paki too.

Just lol at anyone, particularly white Anglo Saxons, who think that they have the right to dictate how offended I should be.

Privilege is a sweet fucking thing.

Fuck your privilege.

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
- AGirlWithDoubts
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Exposure. ITV documentary, 13th Oct 2016.
Reply #15 - October 16, 2016, 12:29 PM

Quote from: Qtian on October 16, 2016, 12:17 AM
This. This is exactly why I have zero right to use the N word, even though some of my Jamaican and African friends throw it around haphazardly, and probably wouldn't care if I said it.

I still have no right to use it or to tell them how they should use it. I know where it comes from.

I might get away with not looking Pakistani when I'm clean shaven, but with the facial hair, my South Asian genes shine. When hate comes to town you'd better believe that I'll be labelled as a Paki too.

Just lol at anyone, particularly white Anglo Saxons, who think that they have the right to dictate how offended I should be.

Privilege is a sweet fucking thing.

Fuck your privilege.

Exactly, I don't use the N word myself but I know what it's like to be subject to racial abuse on social media with people who don't like my opinion throwing that word at me in an attempt to silence and degrade me. That is why I understand why other Black people use it; reclaiming the word is a natural defence to this abuse, but no one else gets to reclaim it.

Edit: also, I love how some of them say thing like "well, my mate Ahmed, a really cool and funny guy by the way, doesn't mind me saying it". Well, I'm not your mate Ahmed and even if he's fine with it, you should have the decency to know why it's not OK.
- Aftab
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Reply #16 - October 16, 2016, 12:39 PM

movie was aweseome great work by deeyah khan.
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