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 Topic: Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli

 (Read 13147 times)
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  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #30 - August 22, 2016, 04:27 PM

    Huh? Why is bombing Pakistan worse than any other country? Is it the policy of mutual destruction?


    If I remember correctly Harris was addressing issue of Pakistan being a failed state that has a stockpile of nuclear weapons. His argument is that being a failed state in proximity to jihadist power bases, including these in its own territory, makes it a likely source of nuclear weapons. However the same argument can be made for radical anti-communists during the collapse of the Soviet Union.



  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #31 - August 22, 2016, 04:54 PM

    Of course - it's not just Sam Harris that has that problem. Many Pakistanis are frightened that if the terrorists get hold of any nuclear device via coup that they may detonate a bomb - in Pakistan no less!

    I suppose I understand his thinking - if you are up against an extremist organisation -  that prizes martyrdom - and views the West or any other country that opposes it as expendable then you'd want to nuke them before they get to use the ultimate WMD. I doubt that Sam was advocating bombing of a nuclear power for the sake of it. I understand, though do not advocate it.

    Perhaps I'm biased as I have many loved ones in Pakistan.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #32 - August 22, 2016, 06:48 PM

    Huh? Why is bombing Pakistan worse than any other country? Is it the policy of mutual destruction?


    No, no... Because in the case of ISIS you could be sure they'll use it if they have it, so let's say you'll have more legitimacy.
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #33 - August 22, 2016, 07:04 PM

    I suppose I understand his thinking - if you are up against an extremist organisation -  that prizes martyrdom - and views the West or any other country that opposes it as expendable then you'd want to nuke them before they get to use the ultimate WMD. I doubt that Sam was advocating bombing of a nuclear power for the sake of it. I understand, though do not advocate it.


    Doesn't work as simple as that. If you are striking first they have all the time to strike back until your nuke hits the target. So you will be nuked and you're the one who started all this shit.
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #34 - August 23, 2016, 12:05 AM

    Of course - it's not just Sam Harris that has that problem. Many Pakistanis are frightened that if the terrorists get hold of any nuclear device via coup that they may detonate a bomb - in Pakistan no less!

    I suppose I understand his thinking - if you are up against an extremist organisation -  that prizes martyrdom - and views the West or any other country that opposes it as expendable then you'd want to nuke them before they get to use the ultimate WMD. I doubt that Sam was advocating bombing of a nuclear power for the sake of it. I understand, though do not advocate it.

    Perhaps I'm biased as I have many loved ones in Pakistan.


    I take issue with the vagueness surrounding WMD that feeds hysteria.
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #35 - August 23, 2016, 12:26 AM

    Doesn't work as simple as that. If you are striking first they have all the time to strike back until your nuke hits the target. So you will be nuked and you're the one who started all this shit.


    This is pure speculation

    Why would a first-strike have a sizable delay allowing for a response? A single Stealth Bomber could strike a low tech target without the target even realizing it. After all the plane was designed to bypass high-tech defense and detection at high altitude to launch atomic weapons. Jihadist can't even get basic radar system together....

  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #36 - August 23, 2016, 02:16 AM

    The part that I don't get is why you need a nuke to destroy another nuke.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #37 - August 23, 2016, 07:30 AM

    Some humanitarian interventions are a lot less discriminating than others.
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #38 - August 23, 2016, 08:33 AM

    I take issue with the vagueness surrounding WMD that feeds hysteria.


    Is the a fallout from the Chilcot Inquiry?

    The legacy of Tony Blair and his 45 minute claim?

    The invasion of Iraq 2003?


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #39 - August 23, 2016, 01:19 PM

    This is pure speculation

    Why would a first-strike have a sizable delay allowing for a response? A single Stealth Bomber could strike a low tech target without the target even realizing it. After all the plane was designed to bypass high-tech defense and detection at high altitude to launch atomic weapons. Jihadist can't even get basic radar system together....



    Letting Jihadi aside, what about Pakistani military? They do have radars...

    And as asbie says, why nukes?
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #40 - August 23, 2016, 01:19 PM

     Cheesy  how did the folder discussion that is about  these two guys  Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli  end up with nukes and nuking  each other ?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #41 - August 23, 2016, 01:27 PM

    Letting Jihadi aside, what about Pakistani military? They do have radars...

    And as asbie says, why nukes?


    let me ask you couple of  question here dear nbhb.,  Suppose Saddam Hussein had nukes  or  Muammar al-Qaddafi  had nukes and nuke buttons in their hands  .,

    1). Don't you agree with me that  western leaders who eliminated them would have thought 10 times before they attacked those countries?? ..

    2). So ..so  Pakistani military and people and some leaders  also think that  Nukes are saving Pakistan "the country".,  Would it be wrong for Pakistanis to think that way?  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #42 - August 23, 2016, 01:36 PM

    1) Yes, I do.
    2) It is not wrong for them to think that way. It doesn't mean that what they think is correct.

  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #43 - August 23, 2016, 01:50 PM

    1) Yes, I do.
    2) It is not wrong for them to think that way. .....................

     
     well that answers your post here  why nukes ?
    Letting Jihadi aside, what about Pakistani military? They do have radars...

    And as asbie says, why nukes?

     
     having nukes is military game ..they bring people to negotiation tables  instead of attacking each other for silly faiths or stupid reasons   such as WMD..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #44 - August 23, 2016, 02:13 PM

    Yeezee, asbie question's and mine as well was not why to have nukes. It was why you need a nuke to destroy another nuke. Why not using a conventional powerful bomb?
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #45 - August 23, 2016, 02:26 PM

    Yeezee, asbie question's and mine as well was not why to have nukes. It was why you need a nuke to destroy another nuke. Why not using a conventional powerful bomb?

     Well using  a conventional powerful bomb to  destroy  nuke will create a potential explosion and worst radiation pollution 

      easier thing to do is dismantle the nuke dilute the Uranium from 90% or so to some 4% and burn it in Nuclear power plant to make electricity

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #46 - August 23, 2016, 02:31 PM

    That would be easier indeed.
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #47 - August 23, 2016, 07:52 PM

    The part that I don't get is why you need a nuke to destroy another nuke.


    Besides destroying the target itself? Well an atomic weapon releases enough heat to melt and fuse the components of the detonator making the weapon a dud. However this is usually applicable to strikes on hardened military silos that can withstand the blast structurally. Outside a hardened military target it makes little sense unless the military has a vague idea of a target location within a 34 mile radius at most as this is the extreme range of detonation of the largest payload for ICBMs America claimed it has. Again this is overkill. If the payload is smaller so is the radius of the weapon's effect thus target location must be more precise. So on and so on. Payload drops, precision increases, etc. Now if there is a target location the military can ring the area with anti-missile systems which would intercept the missile before it is armed.

    Harris does not seem to even have a basic understanding of military weapons or even basic tactics. His commenting on it is absurd at best, ignorance at worst.
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #48 - August 23, 2016, 08:00 PM

    Is the a fallout from the Chilcot Inquiry?

    The legacy of Tony Blair and his 45 minute claim?

    The invasion of Iraq 2003?




    None. It is based on a person that has zero education even as an amateur regarding atomic weapons, the effects, uses, types, mobility/stationary, counter-systems, location, defenses, etc. feeding people a point of view. The people he is feeding have no greater of a grasp of the above than he does. At worst many are projections Cold War propaganda recycled for the "War on Terrorism" narrative.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #49 - August 23, 2016, 08:03 PM

    Cheesy  how did the folder discussion that is about  these two guys  Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli  end up with nukes and nuking  each other ?


    One of the source behind the OP dialogue is about Harris and his nuclear strike comment.
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #50 - August 23, 2016, 08:37 PM

    Well using  a conventional powerful bomb to  destroy  nuke will create a potential explosion and worst radiation pollution 


    Only if the blast is fast and powerful enough to breach containment for materials to reach critical mass. Otherwise there is no nuclear blast at all.  Atomic weapons have a specific design in order to reach critical mass otherwise you would be able to make an atomic weapon out of any conventional explosives, design and material.  Radiation from materials would be threatening if these reached our food supply and are consumed. This assuming containment is breach and these material are displaced in a large range rather in close proximity to the weapon. The radiation can not penetrate our skin hence why there are nuclear weapon stations that are manned and in close proximity to rural and urban settlements.

    Again this is why I argue Harris comment is absurd since it is enabling people to speculate regarding a topic they have no clue about. Yeez and nhbh have already created scenarios that are divorced from reality. Others will have done so as well. Think how this speculation will feed those that already think using an atomic weapon is not only necessary but reasonable. Keep in mind a lot of Americans are taught that nuking Japan saved lives... Back in reality the use of these weapons was to force a surrender before the Soviets entered the war against Japan thus would have a piece of a cake as well. Think how such thinking will effect policy when a demagogue brings it up in an election.




  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #51 - August 23, 2016, 08:51 PM

    Only if the blast is fast and powerful enough to breach containment for materials to reach critical mass. Otherwise there is no nuclear blast at all.  Atomic weapons have a specific design in order to reach critical mass otherwise you would be able to make an atomic weapon out of any conventional explosives, design and material.  Radiation from materials would be threatening if these reached our food supply and are consumed. This assuming containment is breach and these material are displaced in a large range rather in close proximity to the weapon.
    The radiation can not penetrate our skin ................

    Again this is why I argue Harris comment is absurd since it is enabling people to speculate regarding a topic they have no clue about. 
    Yeez
    and nhbh have already created scenarios that are divorced from reality. Others will have done so as well. Think how this speculation will feed those that already think using an atomic weapon is not only necessary but reasonable. Keep in mind a lot of Americans are taught that nuking Japan saved lives... Back in reality the use of these weapons was to force a surrender before the Soviets entered the war against Japan thus would have a piece of a cake as well. Think how such thinking will effect policy when a demagogue brings it up in an election.
     


    well all that is OK except I am not sure about  "yeez and that statement of yours"   I crossed out  dear bogart   and let me add these  links  of CEMB that are relevant w. r . t  Sam Harris and the bomb  

    Quote


    and please realize what Sam Harris says is NOT word of allah god and he should be questioned , criticized and educated  on what he says

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #52 - August 23, 2016, 09:37 PM

    Well you have both created scenarios that do not bare any relation to reality of atomic warfare.

    Sure Sam is not Allah. However people, including himself, still think this first strike nonsense has merit and still attempt to defense it. At times off-cuff remarks display a perception people hold that is not covered up by well written or rehearsed dialogue
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #53 - August 23, 2016, 09:47 PM

    Well you have both created scenarios that do not bare any relation to reality of atomic warfare.

    well I gave all links of folders I wrote about Sam ..give me the link  of a post on that please.,  May be you are reading from  my posts more than what I intended to express or expressed ..
    Quote
    Sure Sam is not Allah. However people, including himself, still think this first strike nonsense   has merit.

      well you should  ask that to Sam Harris https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/ask-me-anything-3    and it will be more useful to change his views  on that ., I actually  wrote to him saying that he should spend more of his time on "brain/neural research  and faith"   than stupid faiths

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #54 - August 23, 2016, 10:04 PM

    Keep in mind a lot of Americans are taught that nuking Japan saved lives...


    The same way I save a lot of money when I clean out my wallet at the mall.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #55 - August 24, 2016, 12:35 PM

    ....... I save a lot of money when I clean out my wallet at the mall...

      you have to have something in wallet to clean out asbie., I know you guys in AMRIKA have nothing in your wallet  except some plastic cards and guns.,  You better search you bed and sofa  where you might have saved lots of money  Cheesy

    But this first Nuclear strike Policy or Pre-emptive nuclear strike  is  the idea of those who play games  with wars and nukes ..Wiki says
    Quote
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-emptive_nuclear_strike

    In nuclear strategy, a first strike is a preemptive surprise attack employing overwhelming force. First strike capability is a country's ability to defeat another nuclear power by destroying its arsenal to the point where the attacking country can survive the weakened retaliation while the opposing side is left unable to continue war. The preferred methodology is to attack the opponent's strategic nuclear weapon facilities (missile silos, submarine bases, bomber airfields), command and control sites, and storage depots first. The strategy is called counterforce.

    So that survival strategy   of   baboonism/baboonalogy   depends upon  how many nukes  these warmongering  nations have and how many they are hiding from each other ..

    Quote
    During the Cold War period, both superpowers, NATO and the Eastern Bloc, built massive nuclear arsenals, aimed, to a large extent, at each other. However, they were never used, as after a time, leaders on both sides of the Iron Curtain realized that global thermonuclear war would not be in either power's interest, as it would probably lead to the destruction of both sides, and possibly nuclear winter or other extinction level events.


    Quote
    Of the nuclear powers, only the People's Republic of China and India have declarative, unqualified, unconditional no-first-use policies.

    In 1982, at a special session of the General Assembly of United Nations, the USSR pledged not to use nuclear weapons first, regardless of whether its opponents possessed nuclear weapons or not.

    Quote
    This pledge was later abandoned by post-Soviet Russia to compensate the overwhelming conventional weapon superiority enjoyed by NATO. The United States has a partial, qualified no-first-use policy, stating that they will not use nuclear weapons against states that do not possess nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction

    .

    well god/gods are not in-charge of those policies and  nuke buttons  and  all those policies can be changed at any time. some of the recent news on that is

    No first use’ nuclear weapons policy a dangerous Obama idea  ..washingtontimes.com

    Once Again: Why a ‘No First Use’ Nuclear Policy Is a Very Bad Idea

    So what did Sam Harris say on Nukes?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7T7barZEeU

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #56 - August 24, 2016, 12:51 PM

    Quote


    please watch the 2nd tube carefully..  and give your opinions. .specially you bogart..

    i will add more links..  again no one is unquestionable and that  also goes to Sam Harris..   So read his book,  watch his interviews and question him..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GSobo5sk4s

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #57 - August 24, 2016, 01:15 PM

    Sam Harris on his controversies  from his own pen  

    Quote
    June 21, 2014

    A few of the subjects I explore in my work have inspired an unusual amount of controversy. Some of this results from real differences of opinion or honest confusion, but much of it is due to the fact that certain of my detractors deliberately misrepresent my views. The purpose of this article is to address the most consequential of these distortions.

    A general point about the mechanics of defamation: It is impossible to effectively defend oneself against unethical critics. If nothing else, the law of entropy is on their side, because it will always be easier to make a mess than to clean it up. It is, for instance, easier to call a person a “racist,” a “bigot,” a “misogynist,” etc. than it is for one’s target to prove that he isn’t any of these things. In fact, the very act of defending himself against such accusations quickly becomes debasing. Whether or not the original charges can be made to stick, the victim immediately seems thin-skinned and overly concerned about his reputation. And, rebutted or not, the original charges will be repeated in blogs and comment threads, and many readers will assume that where there’s smoke, there must be fire.

    Such defamation is made all the easier if one writes and speaks on extremely controversial topics and with a philosopher’s penchant for describing the corner cases—the ticking time bomb, the perfect weapon, the magic wand, the mind-reading machine, etc.—in search of conceptual clarity. It literally becomes child’s play to find quotations that make the author look morally suspect, even depraved.

    Whenever I respond to unscrupulous attacks on my work, I inevitably hear from hundreds of smart, supportive readers who say that I needn’t have bothered. In fact, many write to say that any response is counterproductive, because it only draws more attention to the original attack and sullies me by association. These readers think that I should be above caring about, or even noticing, treatment of this kind. Perhaps. I actually do take this line, sometimes for months or years, if for no other reason than that it allows me to get on with more interesting work. But there are now whole websites—Salon, The Guardian, Alternet, etc.—that seem to have made it a policy to maliciously distort my views. I have commented before on the general futility of responding to attacks of this kind. Nevertheless, the purpose of this article is to address the most important misunderstandings of my work. (Parts of these responses have been previously published.) I encourage readers to direct people to this page whenever these issues surface in blog posts and comment threads. And if you come across any charge that you think I really must answer, feel free to let me know through the contact form on this website.

    My views on Islam
     
    My criticism of faith-based religion focuses on what I consider to be bad ideas, held for bad reasons, leading to bad behavior. Because I am concerned about the logical and behavioral consequences of specific beliefs, I do not treat all religions the same. Not all religious doctrines are mistaken to the same degree, intellectually or ethically, and it is dishonest and ultimately dangerous to pretend otherwise. People in every tradition can be seen making the same errors, of course—e.g. relying on faith instead of evidence in matters of great personal and public concern—but the doctrines and authorities in which they place their faith run the gamut from the quaint to the psychopathic. For instance, a dogmatic belief in the spiritual and ethical necessity of complete nonviolence lies at the very core of Jainism, whereas an equally dogmatic commitment to using violence to defend one’s faith, both from within and without, is similarly central to the doctrine of Islam. These beliefs, though held for identical reasons (faith) and in varying degrees by individual practitioners of these religions, could not be more different. And this difference has consequences in the real world. (Let that be the first barrier to entry into this conversation: If you will not concede this point, you will not understand anything I say about Islam. Unfortunately, many of my most voluble critics cannot clear this bar—and no amount of quotation from the Koran, the hadith, the ravings of modern Islamists, or from the plaints of their victims, makes a bit of difference.)

    Facts of this kind demand that we make distinctions among faiths that many confused or dishonest people will interpret as a sign of bigotry. For instance, I have said on more than one occasion that Mormonism is objectively less credible than Christianity, because Mormons are committed to believing nearly all the implausible things that Christians believe plus many additional implausible things. It is mathematically true to say that whatever probability one assigns to Jesus’ returning to earth to judge the living and the dead, one must assign a lesser probability to his doing so from Jackson County, Missouri. The glare of history is likewise unkind to Mormonism, for we simply know much more about Joseph Smith than we do about the twelve Apostles, and we have very good reasons to believe that he was a gifted con man. It is not a sign of bigotry against Mormons as people to honestly discuss these things. And I believe that atheists, secularists, and humanists do the world no favors by insisting that all religions be criticized in precisely the same terms and to the same degree.

    Because I consider Islam to be especially belligerent and inimical to the norms of civil discourse, my views are often described as “racist” by my critics. It is said that I am suffering a terrible case of “Islamophobia.” Worse, I am spreading this disease to others and using a veneer of philosophical atheism and scientific skepticism to justify the political oppression, torture, and murder of innocent Muslims around the world. I am a “neo-con goon,” a “war monger,” and a friend to “fascists.” In other words, I have blood on my hands.

    It is hard to know where to start untangling these pernicious memes, but let’s begin with the charge of racism. My criticism of the logical and behavioral consequences of certain ideas (e.g. martyrdom, jihad, blasphemy, honor, etc.) impugns white converts to Islam—like Adam Gadahn—every bit as much as it does Arabs like Ayman al-Zawahiri. If anything, I tend to be more critical of converts, whatever the color of their skin, because they were not brainwashed into the faith from birth. I am also in the habit of making invidious comparisons between Islam and other religions, such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. Must I point out that most Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains are not white like me? One would hope there is no such need—but the work of several prominent writers suggests that the need is pressing.

    It is on the topic of Islam that my critics have truly mastered the art of selective quotation. Here is how the trick is done: Murtaza Hussain writes an abysmally dishonest article on the Al Jazeera website accusing me of a genocidal hatred of Muslims. I am, we are told, a bloodthirsty racist—and my words prove it. Consider:

    Quote
    ...........Harris has stated that the correct policy with regard to Western Muslim populations is in fact that which is currently being pursued by contemporary fascist movements today. In Harris’ view: ‘The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists.’
    The author then helpfully links to an article about European fascists—in this case members of the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn Party in Greece—who have threatened to turn immigrants into soap and lampshades. How, the shocked reader is left to wonder, could I admire such people?


    But here are my words in their original context:

    Quote
    Increasingly, Americans will come to believe that the only people hard-headed enough to fight the religious lunatics of the Muslim world are the religious lunatics of the West. Indeed, it is telling that the people who speak with the greatest moral clarity about the current wars in the Middle East are members of the Christian right, whose infatuation with biblical prophecy is nearly as troubling as the ideology of our enemies. Religious dogmatism is now playing both sides of the board in a very dangerous game.

    While liberals should be the ones pointing the way beyond this Iron Age madness, they are rendering themselves increasingly irrelevant. Being generally reasonable and tolerant of diversity, liberals should be especially sensitive to the dangers of religious literalism. But they aren’t.

    The same failure of liberalism is evident in Western Europe, where the dogma of multiculturalism has left a secular Europe very slow to address the looming problem of religious extremism among its immigrants. The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists. To say that this does not bode well for liberalism is an understatement: It does not bode well for the future of civilization
    ..........

    The whole purpose of that essay (written in 2006) was to express my concern that the political correctness of the Left has made it taboo to even notice the menace of political Islam, leaving only right-wing fanatics to do the job. Such fanatics are, as I thought I made clear, the wrong people to do this, being nearly as bad as jihadists themselves. I was not praising fascists: I was arguing that liberal confusion and cowardice was empowering them.

    Perhaps the point is still not clear (can one ever be sure?). So, imagine: A copy of the Koran gets burned tomorrow—or is merely rumored to have been burned. What will happen if this act of desecration is widely publicized? Well, we can be sure that Muslims by the thousands, or even the tens of thousands, will riot—perhaps in a dozen countries. Scores of people may die as a result. Who can be counted upon to defend free speech in the face of this pious madness? Will the editorial page of The New York Times remind the world that free people should be free to burn the Koran, or any other book, without fear of being murdered? Probably not. But the secular Left will surely denounce the bigot who burned the book for his “religious insensitivity” and hold him largely (if not entirely) responsible for the resulting mayhem and loss of life. It will be left to crackpot pastors, white supremacists, and other jingoists on the far Right—and, of course, “Islamophobes” like me—to remind us that the First Amendment exists, that books don’t feel pain, and that the sensitivities of every other faith are regularly traduced without similar reprisals.

    Have I made the job of distorting my views easier than it needed to be? Undoubtedly. And in this particular case, a careful reader was kind enough to take the author’s feet out of my mouth on many other points. The problem, however, is that some critics have no scruples. When I called Glenn Greenwald’s attention to how he had misrepresented me by publicly endorsing Hussain’s article, he wrote a nearly identical article of his own on The Guardian website. Multiply this kind of malicious treatment a thousandfold, and you will understand why many writers, scientists, and public intellectuals who agree with me about Islam and about the failure of the Left have decided that it is simply too much trouble to make the case in public. The term “Islamophobia” is now being used as a kind of intellectual blood libel to protect intrinsically harmful ideas from criticism.

    Most religions produce a fair amount of needless suffering. Consider the pedophile-priest scandal in the Catholic Church, which is something I’ve written about before, I hope with sufficient outrage and derision. One can certainly argue, as I have, that Catholic teaching is partly to blame for these crimes against children. By making contraception and abortion taboo, the Church ensured that there would be many out-of-wedlock births among the faithful; by stigmatizing unwed mothers, it further guaranteed that many children would be abandoned to Church-run orphanages where they could be preyed upon by sexually unhealthy men lurking in the life of priestly celibacy. I don’t think any of this was consciously planned—it’s just a grotesque consequence of some very stupid doctrines. And yet the truth is that no direct link exists between Christian scripture and child rape. However, just imagine if the New Testament contained passages promising heaven to any priest who sodomized a child. And then imagine that more or less every journalist and politician denied that the resultant crimes against children had anything whatsoever to do with the “true” teachings of Christianity. That is the uncanny situation we find ourselves in with respect to Islam.

    As I wrote in my personal exchange with Greenwald, “Islamophobia” is a term of propaganda. Here is how he responded to me on the Guardian website:

    Quote
    Perhaps the most repellent claim Harris made to me was that Islamophobia is fictitious and non-existent, “a term of propaganda designed to protect Islam from the forces of secularism by conflating all criticism of it with racism and xenophobia”. How anyone can observe post-9/11 political discourse in the west and believe this is truly mystifying. The meaning of “Islamophobia” is every bit as clear as “anti-semitism” or “racism” or “sexism” and all sorts of familiar, related concepts. It signifies (1) irrational condemnations of all members of a group or the group itself based on the bad acts of specific individuals in that group; (2) a disproportionate fixation on that group for sins committed at least to an equal extent by many other groups, especially one’s own; and/or (3) sweeping claims about the members of that group unjustified by their actual individual acts and beliefs.


    This is extremely useful, being both clearly stated and clearly wrong. The meaning of “Islamophobia” is not at all like the meanings of those other terms. It is not easy to differentiate prejudice against Muslims from ordinary racism and xenophobia directed at Arabs, Pakistanis, Somalis, and other people who happen to be Muslim. There is no question that such bigotry exists, and it is as odious as Greenwald believes. But inventing a new term does not give us license to say that there is a new form of hatred in the world. How does the term “anti-Semitism” differ? Well, we have a 2000-year-old tradition of religiously inspired hatred against Jews, conceived as a distinct race of people, both by those who hate them and by Jews themselves. Anti-Semitism is, therefore, a specific form of racism that, as everyone knows, has taken many terrible turns over the years (and is now especially prevalent among Muslims, for reasons that can be explicitly traced not merely to recent conflicts over land in the Middle East, but to the doctrine of Islam). “Sexism,” generally speaking, is a bias against women, not because of any doctrines they might espouse, but because they were born without a Y chromosome. The meanings of these terms are clear, and each names a form of hatred and exclusion directed at people, as people, not because of their behavior or beliefs, but because of the mere circumstances of their birth.

    Islamophobia is something else entirely. It is, Greenwald tells us in his three points, an “irrational” and “disproportionate” and “unjustified” focus on Muslims. But the only way that Muslims can reasonably be said to exist as a group is in terms of their adherence to the doctrine of Islam. There is no race of Muslims. They are not united by any physical traits or a diaspora. Unlike Judaism, Islam is a vast, missionary faith. The only thing that defines the class of All Muslims—and the only thing that could make this group the possible target of anyone’s “irrational” fear, “disproportionate” focus, or “unjustified” criticism—is their adherence to a set of beliefs and the behaviors that these beliefs inspire.

    And, unlike a person’s racial characteristics or gender, beliefs can be argued for, tested, criticized, and changed. In fact, wherever the norms of rational conversation are allowed to do their work, beliefs must earn respect. More important, beliefs are claims about reality and about how human beings should live within it—so they necessarily lead to behavior, and to values, laws, and public institutions that affect the lives of all people, whether they share these beliefs or not. Beliefs end marriages and start wars.

    So “Islamophobia” must be—it really can only be—an irrational, disproportionate, and unjustified fear of certain people, regardless of their ethnicity or any other accidental trait, because of what they believe and to the degree to which they believe it. Thus the relevant question to ask is whether a special concern about people who are deeply committed to the actual doctrines of Islam, in the aftermath of September 11th, 2001, is irrational, disproportionate, and unjustified.

    Contrary to Greenwald’s assertion, my condemnation of Islam does not apply to “all members of a group or the group itself based on the bad acts of specific individuals in that group.” My condemnation applies to the doctrines of Islam and to the ways in which they reliably produce these “bad acts.” Unfortunately, in the case of Islam, the bad acts of the worst individuals—the jihadists, the murderers of apostates, and the men who treat their wives and daughters like chattel—are the best examples of the doctrine in practice. Those who adhere most strictly to the actual teachings of Islam, those who expound its timeless dogma most honestly, are precisely the people whom Greenwald and other obscurantists want us to believe least represent the faith.

    Well, this is a very easy difference of opinion to resolve: One need only study the doctrine of Islam—not merely as it existed in the 7th century, but as it exists today—and ask some very basic questions. What, for instance, is the penalty for apostasy? It isn’t spelled out clearly in the Koran—though verses 2:217 and 4:89 suggest that those who seek to lead others away from the faith must be killed. However, the general sanction is made abundantly clear in the hadith, and in the opinions of Muslim jurists and Muslim mobs everywhere. The year is 2014, and the penalty for apostasy, everywhere under Islam, is death. I have yet to meet an apologist for the religion, however evasive, who could lie about this fact with a straight face. (Perhaps Greenwald would like to be the first.) And I receive emails from former Muslims who are all too aware of what it means to be a former Muslim. Depending on where they live, these people run a real risk of being murdered, perhaps even by members of their own families, for having lost their faith.

    Is it really true that the sins for which I hold Islam accountable are “committed at least to an equal extent by many other groups, especially [my] own”? First, I have to say that so much moral confusion lies buried in this statement that it would take a very long essay to respond to all the charges implicit in it. What Greenwald surely means to convey is that the U.S. government is (in some sense that is not merely absurd) the worst terrorist organization on earth. I have argued against this general idea in many places, especially in my first book, The End of Faith, and I won’t repeat that argument here. I will say, however, that nothing about honestly discussing the doctrine of Islam requires that a person not notice all that might be wrong with U.S. foreign policy, capitalism, the vestiges of empire, or anything else that may be contributing to our ongoing conflicts in the Muslim world. Which is to say that even if Noam Chomsky were right about everything, the Islamic doctrines related to martyrdom, jihad, blasphemy, apostasy, the rights of women and homosexuals, etc. would still present huge problems for the emergence of a global civil society (and these are problems quite unlike those presented by similar tenets in other faiths, for reasons that I have explained at length elsewhere and touch on only briefly here). And any way in which I might be biased or blinded by “the religion of the state,” or any other form of cultural indoctrination, has absolutely no relevance to the plight of Shiites who have their mosques, weddings, and funerals bombed by Sunni extremists, or to victims of rape who are beaten, imprisoned, or even killed as “adulteresses” throughout the Muslim world. I hope it goes without saying that the Afghan girls who even now are risking their lives by merely learning to read would not be best compensated for their struggles by being handed copies of Chomsky’s books enumerating the sins of the West.

    Western conflict with the Muslim world has arisen, off and on, for centuries. Thomas Jefferson sued for peace with the Barbary Pirates who had enslaved something like 1.5 million Europeans and Americans between 16th and 18th centuries. As Christopher Hitchens once pointed out, the explicit justification for this piracy was the doctrine of Islam. In fact, this collision with Islam helped ensure the ratification of the U.S. Constitution, for it was argued that only a federation of states with a strong navy could stand against such a persistent threat. Consequently, one could argue that the American war on terror formally began in 1801 with the Barbary Wars—waged by the Jefferson and Madison administrations. This is one of the many ways to see that our troubles in the Muslim world are not purely a matter of our lust for oil, our support for dictators, or any aspect of U.S. foreign policy. As the much-maligned Samuel Huntington one said, “Islam has bloody borders.” It always has. But many people seem determined to deny this.

    Is it true, as Greenwald insists, that the religiously inspired affronts to reason and civility that I criticize among Muslims are “committed at least to an equal extent by many other groups”?

    Let’s take a trip to the real world. Consider: Anyone who wants to draw a cartoon, write a novel, or stage a Broadway play that denigrates Mormonism is free to do it. In the United States, this freedom is ostensibly guaranteed by the First Amendment—but that is not, in fact, what guarantees it. The freedom to poke fun at Mormonism is guaranteed by the fact that Mormons do not dispatch assassins to silence their critics or summon murderous hordes in response to satire. As I have pointed out before, when The Book of Mormon became the most celebrated musical of the year, the LDS Church protested by placing ads for the faith in Playbill. A wasted effort, perhaps: but this was a genuinely charming sign of good humor, given the alternatives. What are the alternatives? Can any reader of this page imagine the staging of a similar play about Islam in the United States, or anywhere else? No you cannot—unless you also imagine the creators of this play being hunted for the rest of their lives by religious maniacs. Yes, there are crazy people in every faith—and I often hear from them. But what is true of Mormonism is true of every other faith, with a single exception.  At this moment in history, there is only one religion that systematically stifles free expression with credible threats of violence. The truth is, we have already lost our First Amendment rights with respect to Islam—and because they brand any observation of this fact a symptom of Islamophobia, Muslim apologists like Greenwald are largely to blame.

    It is depressing to quote from one’s own work, but it is even more depressing to struggle to find new ways to say something that shouldn’t have needed saying in the first place. Here is how I put it in the immediate aftermath of the Innocence of Muslims debacle, in an article entitled “On the Freedom to Offend an Imaginary God”:

    Consider what is actually happening: Some percentage of the world’s Muslims—Five percent? Fifteen? Fifty? It’s not yet clear—are demanding that all non-Muslims conform to the strictures of Islamic law. And where they do not immediately resort to violence in their protests, they threaten it. Carrying a sign that reads “Behead Those Who Insult the Prophet” may still count as an example of peaceful protest, but it is also an assurance that infidel blood would be shed if the imbecile holding the placard only had more power. This grotesque promise is, of course, fulfilled in nearly every Muslim society. To make a film like Innocence of Muslims anywhere in the Middle East would be as sure a method of suicide as the laws of physics allow.

    What exactly was in the film? Who made it? What were their motives? Was Muhammad really depicted? Was that a Qur’an burning, or some other book? Questions of this kind are obscene. Here is where the line must be drawn and defended without apology: We are free to burn the Qur’an or any other book, and to criticize Muhammad or any other human being. Let no one forget it.

    At moments like this, we inevitably hear—from people who don’t know what it’s like to believe in paradise—that religion is just a way of channeling popular unrest. The true source of the problem can be found in the history of Western aggression in the region. It is our policies, rather than our freedoms, that they hate. I believe that the future of liberalism—and much else—depends on our overcoming this ruinous self-deception.  Religion only works as a pretext for political violence because many millions of people actually believe what they say they believe: that imaginary crimes like blasphemy and apostasy are killing offenses.

    I stand by these words and by everything else I have said or written about Islam. And I maintain that anyone who considers my views to be a symptom of irrational fear is ignorant, dishonest, or insane. (I recently suggested to Greenwald on Twitter that we settle our dispute by holding simultaneous cartoon contests. He could use his Guardian blog to solicit cartoons about Islam, and I’d use my website to run a similar contest for any other faith on earth. As will come as no surprise, the man immediately started sputtering non-sequiturs.)

    For several years now, whenever I have drawn a link between Islam and violence—especially the tactic of suicide bombing—my critics have urged me to consult the work of Robert A. Pape. Pape is the author of a very influential paper, “The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism,” (American Political Science Review 97, no. 3, 2003), and a subsequent book, Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism, in which he argues that suicidal terrorism is best understood as a strategic means to achieve certain well-defined nationalist goals and should not be considered a consequence of religious ideology. In March of 2012, Pape agreed to debate these issues with me on my blog. I announced our debate publicly and sent him my first volley by email. Then he disappeared. I have no idea what happened.

    I would have made it clear to Pape that I have never argued (and would never argue) that all conflicts are attributable to religion or that all suicide bombing is the product of Islam. I am well aware, for instance, that the Tamil Tigers were avowedly secular. Even in this case, however, it seems only decent to recall that they learned the tactic of suicide bombing from Hezbollah and eventually developed their own quasi-religious cult of martyr worship. One can’t really argue that they were a group of classically rational actors. And even here, in this most secular of cases, always used to exculpate Islam, we find the divisive role of religion—because it seems unreasonable to believe that a civil war would have erupted in Sri Lanka if the Tamils, who are nominal Hindus, had been Sinhalese Buddhists, like the government they were fighting. Again, nothing turns on this point, because I admit that not all terrorism need be religiously inspired.

    The general blindness of secular academics to the religious roots of Muslim violence is easily explained. As my friend Jerry Coyne once observed, when confronted with a transparently religious motive (e.g. “I will blow myself up to get into paradise”), secular scholars refuse to take it at face value; they always look for the “deeper” reasons—economic, political, or personal—behind it. However, when given economic, political, or personal motives (e.g. “I did it because they stole my family’s land, and I felt totally hopeless.”), these researchers always seem to take a person at his word. They never dig for the religious motive behind apparently terrestrial concerns. The game is rigged. This is how an anthropologist like Scott Atran can interview dozens of jihadists—each of whom rattles on about God and paradise—and come out thinking that the doctrine of Islam has nothing to do with terrorism.

    To describe the principal aims of a group like al Qaeda as “nationalistic,” as Pape does, is simply ludicrous. Al Qaeda’s goal is the establishment of a global caliphate. And even in those cases where a jihadist like Osama bin Laden seemed to voice concern about the fate of a nation, his grievances with its “occupiers” were primarily theological. Osama bin Laden objected to the presence of infidels in proximity to the holy sites on the Arabian Peninsula. And we were not “occupiers” of Saudi Arabia, in any case. We were there by the permission of the Saudi regime—a regime that bin Laden considered insufficiently Islamic. To say that members of al Qaeda have perpetrated terrorist atrocities against U.S. interests and innocent Muslims because of a “nationalistic” agenda is to just play a game with words.

    Pape’s narrow focus on suicide terrorism also allows him to ignore all the other barbarism in the Muslim world that has its origins in religion. Was the fatwa against Salman Rushdie the result of foreign occupation? The Danish cartoon controversy? The calls for blood over a poorly named teddy bear? The movement to hang atheist bloggers in Bangladesh? What about the internecine murders of apostates in Pakistan (accomplished, all too often, by suicide bombers)? The ubiquitous abuse of women? Are these problems also the result of western occupation? How do the perpetrators of these crimes explain their own behavior? It is always by reference to their most sacred concern: Islam.

    Many peoples have been conquered by foreign powers or otherwise mistreated and show no propensity for the type of violence that is commonplace among Muslims. Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation every bit as oppressive as any ever imposed on a Muslim country. At least one million Tibetans have died as a result, and their culture has been systematically eradicated. Even their language has been taken from them. Recently, they have begun to practice self-immolation in protest. The difference between self-immolation and blowing oneself up in a crowd of children, or at the entrance to a hospital, is impossible to overstate, and reveals a great difference in moral attitude between Vajrayana Buddhism and Islam. This is not to say that Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers couldn’t exist. Tibetans, generally speaking, are not pacifists—nor are most Buddhists elsewhere. In fact, during WWII, the Japanese Kamikaze pilots were influenced by the doctrine of Zen Buddhism. But there are important differences between Zen and Vajrayana that seem relevant here. Vajrayana emphasizes compassion in a way that Zen does not, and Zen generally maintains a more martial and more paradoxical view of ethics.

    My point, of course, is that beliefs matter. And it is not an accident that so many Muslims believe that jihad and martyrdom are the highest callings in human life, while many Tibetans believe that compassion and self-transcendence are. This is what Islam and Vajrayana Buddhism, respectively, teach.

    Am I saying that Islam is the worst religion across the board?  No. Again, one must always focus on the specific consequences of specific ideas. There is, for instance, no reason to mention Islam when criticizing religious opposition to embryonic stem-cell research, because the doctrine allows for it. This is not owing to some biological or ethical insight on the part of Muhammad, obviously. It is simply a happy accident that at least one hadith suggests that the human soul enters the embryo many weeks after conception (either at day 40, 80, or 120, depending on how one interprets it). It would be preposterous and unfair to equate Islam with Christianity when discussing religious impediments to this form of research.

    Finally, as I regularly emphasize when discussing Islam, no one is suffering under its doctrine more than Muslims themselves: Muslim jihadists primarily kill other Muslims. And the laws against apostasy, blasphemy, idolatry, and other forms of peaceful expression diminish the freedoms of Muslims far more than those of non-Muslims living in the West. Liberals like Greenwald, who are so eager to swing the flail of Islamophobia, display a sickening insensitivity to the plight of women, homosexuals, and freethinkers throughout the Muslim world. At this moment, millions of women and girls have been abandoned to illiteracy, compulsory marriage, and lives of slavery and abuse under the guise of “multiculturalism” and “religious sensitivity.” And the most liberal Muslim minds are forced into hiding. The best way to address this problem is by no means obvious. But lying about its cause, and defaming those who speak honestly in defense of a global civil society, seems a very unlikely path to a solution.

    For further discussion of the “Islamophobia” canard, see my exchange with Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Lifting the Veil of “Islamophobia”

    My position on profiling for the purpose of airline security
      
     
    I once wrote a short essay about airline security that provoked a ferocious backlash from readers. In publishing this piece, I’m afraid that I broke one of my cardinal rules of time (and sanity) management: Not everything worth saying is worth saying oneself. I learned this the hard way once before, in discussing the ethics of torture and collateral damage (see below), but this time the backlash was even more unpleasant and less rational.

    One line in my article raised a tsunami of contempt for me in liberal and secular circles:  ......


    well you can read that and more  and all of his defense on what he said and wrote at that link..

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #58 - August 24, 2016, 03:10 PM


    Also, Maajid Nawaz is a tool of the right who talks about jihad like it's a global conspiracy. {b}There's nothing wrong with calling out Muslims and ex-Muslims for being tools of the right.[/b}



    This,I have to come to accept the fact that within ex-muslim circle, that they are going to be right,centre and left,Conservative,Liberal and Libertarian or whatever. The only common denominator is that we reject God and Islam, that's just where it stops. Nothing further

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Maajid Nawaz vs Talib Kweli
     Reply #59 - August 24, 2016, 03:15 PM

    The part that I don't get is why you need a nuke to destroy another nuke.


    Tell me about it  Cheesy

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
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