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 Topic: I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...

 (Read 12614 times)
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  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     OP - June 28, 2016, 02:24 AM

    From my recent observations, I have seen that a high number of ex-Muslims are anti-theists/theism. True, there are ex-Christians, ex-Jews, etc, which may take a similar approach. But, personally speaking, I have seen a higher amount on the ex-Muslim side, in contrast to any other group that I have had a dialogue/s with. Of course, my observations aren't quite stratified, so it would not be an accurate representation. However, if this is, or is not true, I still want to know what is the reason making you ex-Muslims feel this way? Thanks.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #1 - June 28, 2016, 04:02 AM

    Don't worry. There are far easier instances from which to accuse you of ignorance.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #2 - June 28, 2016, 05:29 AM

    I knew that comment was somehow going to appear in this thread.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #3 - June 28, 2016, 07:01 AM

    From my recent observations, I have seen that a high number of ex-Muslims are anti-theists/theism. True, there are ex-Christians, ex-Jews, etc, which may take a similar approach. But, personally speaking, I have seen a higher amount on the ex-Muslim side, in contrast to any other group that I have had a dialogue/s with. Of course, my observations aren't quite stratified, so it would not be an accurate representation. However, if this is, or is not true, I still want to know what is the reason making you ex-Muslims feel this way? Thanks.


    There are many reasons but 2 come to my mind:

    - Islam is by far the worst and the most restrictive. Have so much impact on you and it does so much damage, once you are out you don't want to hear of any GOD(Islamic or non Islamic). Ex Christians, ex Jews have way less reasons to hate the GOD.

    - Islam requires submission where the other two not, thus Muslims are engaged way more with their religion, they are more aware(and have more knowledge) of their own religion, so they are more aware of the bullshit of their religion. Christianity not being so restrictive, most Christians don't even read about their religion(people are lazy when about reading in general, even more when it comes to boring religious texts). The vast majority knows nothing about the bullshit from the old testament. They have heard that Jesus forgive so they can be easily seculars, agnostics, atheists and Christians in the same time.

    In conclusion, it is because how evil the GOD of Islam is.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #4 - June 28, 2016, 10:05 AM

    ..................

    In conclusion, it is because how evil the GOD of Islam is.

    hello nbhb.,  could you describe  GOD of Islam., and compare that to GOD of Christianity and GOD of Judaism  in one post here ...  Don't write your own understanding of faiths., but you must give reference verses from their religious books.

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #5 - June 28, 2016, 10:09 AM

    From my recent observations, I have seen that a high number of ex-Muslims are anti-theists/theism UNLIKE people that are born in other faiths. . ............

    Adding those highlighted  words in to your post.,  What do you think is the reason for that dear A Muslim?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #6 - June 28, 2016, 12:16 PM

    There are many reasons but 2 come to my mind:

    - Islam is by far the worst and the most restrictive. Have so much impact on you and it does so much damage, once you are out you don't want to hear of any GOD(Islamic or non Islamic). Ex Christians, ex Jews have way less reasons to hate the GOD.

    - Islam requires submission where the other two not, thus Muslims are engaged way more with their religion, they are more aware(and have more knowledge) of their own religion, so they are more aware of the bullshit of their religion. Christianity not being so restrictive, most Christians don't even read about their religion(people are lazy when about reading in general, even more when it comes to boring religious texts). The vast majority knows nothing about the bullshit from the old testament. They have heard that Jesus forgive so they can be easily seculars, agnostics, atheists and Christians in the same time.

    In conclusion, it is because how evil the GOD of Islam is.


    I think you nailed it pretty good there.

    I come from a mainstream Christianity, and it is very relaxed.


    If you are "average", religion has very little to say.
    You will probably baptize, have confirmation (the kids attend mass 10 times as part of the preperation... but they have to be ordered to do it), marry and get buried from the church. You may also go to church on christmas eve. (I never did):

    If you are "devout above average", you attend church on Sunday (an hour, pretty boring).
    You may also pray on your own, but not according to any prescribed schedule.
    ..... and then you will babble about "christian values", that you cant really explain what these are.... BUT THEY ARE IMPORTANT!

    If you are a fanatic/fundamentalist you may start worrying about:
    - homosexuals/abortion/sexual morale/not flaunting too much cleavage
    - daily prayer
    - how exclusive your own version of the superstition is
    - how WRONG the other versions are
    - that "having fun" in general is sinful
    (- that the rest of society considers you to be idiots... but they'll burn in hell someday, that ought to teach them!)

    Shunning and threats are only seen in the most extremist and sectarian versions. And forcing a marriage on someone is illegal.
    Leaving the faith is not a problem, it is along the way of "we are sorry to see you go, but it is your decision"
    Some of the priests are really whining, because their power and fat wages are threatened, but not more than that.
    And they would really love to have more power!
    (But whenever they try to take more power, they are beaten back.)

    Basically, christianity is bloody annoying, but we've used a couple of hundred years to beat it into a state of "reasonably house trained".
    Staying with the dog analogy:
    It won't bite and it only rarely craps on the carpet (in which case, it is beaten with a rolled up newspaper until it resumes decent behaviour).

    Islam on the other hand, has a few challenges and a nasty totalitarian streak.
    I would go absolutely crazy, if an old text and a bunch of bearded baboons (to use Yeez' favorite expression) had a deciding vote in:
    - how I sleep
    - that I should have genital cutting performed on infants
    - how I eat
    - what I eat
    - that iron age mentality (based on bronze age goat-herders) is wonderfull
    - how I dress
    - my sex-life
    - how I take a crap
    - that half the population are lesser beings
    - that I should break my day up five times, to perform a silly and loud ritual
    - that I should have one month of eating disorder every year
    - constant fixation on sex and temptation
    - that I should value religion over my family
    - that I should fear Hell and eternal damnation every step of the day
    - that I should mention god aaaaaall the time
    - ritualized OCD with little prayers for anything imaginable, which foot to put first, what to say when eating and so on
    - paranoia with regards to shirk (Puts a new level to shirking)
    - blatant flashing of religion
    - considering a lump of rock magic
    - insist that Mo was "perfect" in any way
    - insist that the text is "perfect" in any way
    - waste my time learning a dead language, should I wish to have any weight discussing the text.... But it would still be pretty incomprehensible, and the baboons would tell me, that I was reading it "wrong".
    - genuinely have to fear violence or shunning, should I criticize any of the above mentioned stupidity or wish to live a secular life.
    - sharing the belief with some of the meanest, most violent and misogynistic idiots alive today, and actually be scared to criticize them (and see their sympathizers walk around in society).
    - a general culture of fear, shame and threats.


    Any other religion can deliver (and delivers) the same level of craziness at times. And most of them share some elements of the same stupidity.

    But it sets Islam apart, that so many people are doing it constantly and takes it so seriously.


    "A good mainstream moslem" takes more "nutter points" than most of the "somewhat extreme" christians do.




    I'm deeply sorry! That ended up being quite a rant, an it was caused by just thinking about having to live like some of the people I know!





  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #7 - June 28, 2016, 12:48 PM

    hello nbhb.,  could you describe  GOD of Islam., and compare that to GOD of Christianity and GOD of Judaism  in one post here ...  Don't write your own understanding of faiths., but you must give reference verses from their religious books.

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Yeeze you know very well what I mean by god of x religion. And I also trust you agree with my reasons. You don't strike me as someone who thinks all Abrahamic religions are equally as bad.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #8 - June 28, 2016, 12:57 PM

    Yeeze you know very well what I mean by god of x religion. And I also trust you agree with my reasons.

    Off course nbhb ., I agree that you are a reasonable guy very reasonable guy., i am sure you have same opinion about  me.
     
    Quote
    You don't strike me as someone who thinks all Abrahamic religions are equally as bad.

     
    Well that is a well known fact and any one who reads me  will immediately come to that conclusion., Not only that I will say and one must realize within Islam ..living in Islam all the way until their death in ripe  old age  different Muslim folks understand their Islam, their Muhammad  and their  god differently ., So That was NOT the question you faced dear nbhb..  

    Question again was.. let me paste same words here gain .
    Quote
    hello nbhb.,  could you describe  GOD of Islam., and compare that to GOD of Christianity and GOD of Judaism  in one post here ...  Don't write your own understanding of faiths., but you must give reference verses from their religious books.

    Please realize the forum is NOT for "you answering me  and I questioning  you or me answering you   and you questioning  me" .. WE ARE WRITING POSTS HERE FOR THE SAKE OF READERS.,  to make them understand  what actually we mean  when we discuss these religious scriptures/ discourses.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #9 - June 28, 2016, 02:10 PM

    Well, if you paid attention to our "feelings" in our introduction threads, and elsewhere, you would not be asking this question.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #10 - June 28, 2016, 02:24 PM

    Not only that I will say and one must realize within Islam ..living in Islam all the way until their death in ripe  old age  different Muslim folks understand their Islam, their Muhammad  and their  god differently.

    So, why does this matters? It's the same for other faiths.

    Please realize the forum is NOT for "you answering me  and I questioning  you or me answering you   and you questioning  me" .. WE ARE WRITING POSTS HERE FOR THE SAKE OF READERS.,  to make them understand  what actually we mean  when we discuss these religious scriptures/ discourses.

    Why are you doing this to me Yeeze? I'm too lazy for this and even worst, I'm using the phone now...

    The fact that the Qurans is considered to be the word of God and as a Muslim you have to condone so many bad things. But maybe the worst is that this God "chose" a guy with such a bad CV to be the perfect example of mankind. You have to be damn evil to do that.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #11 - June 28, 2016, 02:26 PM

    Well, if you paid attention to our "feelings" in our introduction threads, and elsewhere, you would not be asking this question.

    Hu! what ? me? real feelings?  you go   read  .. and don't  tell me that  ... go read your own ...  finmad

    we have no real feelings to people .  we have no feelings to this dunya  we have only feelings to Allah and after life .. . people,  this life, this earth all are transient.,., you people were never real Muslims  finmad

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #12 - June 28, 2016, 02:28 PM

    ................
    Why are you doing this to me Yeeze? I'm to lazy for this and even worst, I'm using the phone now..................


    now I am really mad .,  you people don't respond to important posts by phone.. stupid phone  stupid science and stupid inventions  finmad finmad

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #13 - June 28, 2016, 02:58 PM

    I'm an ex muslim, I am personally not anti theist, I'm anti religious. My definition of religion is that it is an organized group, and claims to be the "universal truth". My issue with these is that they inspire hatred against those who do not agree with them, because they do not allow the freedom to think. They tell you what to think, and if you do not agree, you merit the worst punishment imaginable. In that sense, they create deep rifts between people.

    I think you can understand that I'm speaking about most modern day religion (Islam in specific is the one I know most about. As little as I know about christianity, my understanding is that it is very similar in this regard).

    Theism in and of itself is not a problem to me. I don't have a strict opinion on whether or not there is a god. I have a problem with ideologies such as Islam because of the problems they cause. They create an "other" that people feel like they are against. They create all sorts of useless rules that a person must abide by, and an impossible standard of what is considered a good person.



    I think that one of the reason that ex muslims feel this way occasionally (don't know about ex other religions) is because Islam is a highly restrictive religion. In Islam, you are required to submit, and not question god's will. Not only that, but all the hatred against apostates and non muslims in general in some muslim communities does not help. It actually does a lot to foster bitterness in some people.

    I feel like I'm ranting, but hopefully this will shed some light into the matter, at least from my perspective.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #14 - June 28, 2016, 03:19 PM

    Hu! what ? me? real feelings?  you go   read  .. and don't  tell me that  ... go read your own ...  finmad

    we have no real feelings to people .  we have no feelings to this dunya  we have only feelings to Allah and after life .. . people,  this life, this earth all are transient.,., you people were never real Muslims  finmad


    Back off illiterati. I wasn't talking to you.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #15 - June 28, 2016, 04:45 PM

    Back off illiterati. I wasn't talking to you.

    you are NooT??   really??   Huh?   Ok Illuminati .. then  stop stocking me and A Muslim..   ..lol..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #16 - June 28, 2016, 05:43 PM

    There are many reasons but 2 come to my mind:

    - Islam is by far the worst and the most restrictive. Have so much impact on you and it does so much damage, once you are out you don't want to hear of any GOD(Islamic or non Islamic). Ex Christians, ex Jews have way less reasons to hate the GOD.

    - Islam requires submission where the other two not, thus Muslims are engaged way more with their religion, they are more aware(and have more knowledge) of their own religion, so they are more aware of the bullshit of their religion. Christianity not being so restrictive, most Christians don't even read about their religion(people are lazy when about reading in general, even more when it comes to boring religious texts). The vast majority knows nothing about the bullshit from the old testament. They have heard that Jesus forgive so they can be easily seculars, agnostics, atheists and Christians in the same time.

    In conclusion, it is because how evil the GOD of Islam is.

    I think you nailed it pretty good there.

    I come from a mainstream Christianity, and it is very relaxed.


    If you are "average", religion has very little to say.
    You will probably baptize, have confirmation (the kids attend mass 10 times as part of the preperation... but they have to be ordered to do it), marry and get buried from the church. You may also go to church on christmas eve. (I never did):

    If you are "devout above average", you attend church on Sunday (an hour, pretty boring).
    You may also pray on your own, but not according to any prescribed schedule.
    ..... and then you will babble about "christian values", that you cant really explain what these are.... BUT THEY ARE IMPORTANT!

    If you are a fanatic/fundamentalist you may start worrying about:
    - homosexuals/abortion/sexual morale/not flaunting too much cleavage
    - daily prayer
    - how exclusive your own version of the superstition is
    - how WRONG the other versions are
    - that "having fun" in general is sinful
    (- that the rest of society considers you to be idiots... but they'll burn in hell someday, that ought to teach them!)

    Shunning and threats are only seen in the most extremist and sectarian versions. And forcing a marriage on someone is illegal.
    Leaving the faith is not a problem, it is along the way of "we are sorry to see you go, but it is your decision"
    Some of the priests are really whining, because their power and fat wages are threatened, but not more than that.
    And they would really love to have more power!
    (But whenever they try to take more power, they are beaten back.)

    Basically, christianity is bloody annoying, but we've used a couple of hundred years to beat it into a state of "reasonably house trained".
    Staying with the dog analogy:
    It won't bite and it only rarely craps on the carpet (in which case, it is beaten with a rolled up newspaper until it resumes decent behaviour).

    Islam on the other hand, has a few challenges and a nasty totalitarian streak.
    I would go absolutely crazy, if an old text and a bunch of bearded baboons (to use Yeez' favorite expression) had a deciding vote in:
    - how I sleep
    - that I should have genital cutting performed on infants
    - how I eat
    - what I eat
    - that iron age mentality (based on bronze age goat-herders) is wonderfull
    - how I dress
    - my sex-life
    - how I take a crap
    - that half the population are lesser beings
    - that I should break my day up five times, to perform a silly and loud ritual
    - that I should have one month of eating disorder every year
    - constant fixation on sex and temptation
    - that I should value religion over my family
    - that I should fear Hell and eternal damnation every step of the day
    - that I should mention god aaaaaall the time
    - ritualized OCD with little prayers for anything imaginable, which foot to put first, what to say when eating and so on
    - paranoia with regards to shirk (Puts a new level to shirking)
    - blatant flashing of religion
    - considering a lump of rock magic
    - insist that Mo was "perfect" in any way
    - insist that the text is "perfect" in any way
    - waste my time learning a dead language, should I wish to have any weight discussing the text.... But it would still be pretty incomprehensible, and the baboons would tell me, that I was reading it "wrong".
    - genuinely have to fear violence or shunning, should I criticize any of the above mentioned stupidity or wish to live a secular life.
    - sharing the belief with some of the meanest, most violent and misogynistic idiots alive today, and actually be scared to criticize them (and see their sympathizers walk around in society).
    - a general culture of fear, shame and threats.


    Any other religion can deliver (and delivers) the same level of craziness at times. And most of them share some elements of the same stupidity.

    But it sets Islam apart, that so many people are doing it constantly and takes it so seriously.


    "A good mainstream moslem" takes more "nutter points" than most of the "somewhat extreme" christians do.


    These two posts hit the nail on the head. I live in the US, most of my friends either are Christian or used to be Christian. With most Christian families, it's pretty easy to be a non-practicing Christian (or even to come right out and say you don't believe in god/religion). But in Islamic communities, a non-practicing Muslim is the target of shame, whispers, anger--in some countries, death. A Muslim who leaves the faith must really think about it first, since it's not part of the background of their life--it's in the forefront, right in their face all the time.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #17 - June 28, 2016, 06:27 PM

    Thanks for your perspectives.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #18 - June 28, 2016, 07:05 PM

    The reasons we come off as anti-theists is that

    a) you're inevitably going to end up with mostly the anti-theists responding to your questions about God.
    b) even the non-believers who are not anti-theists are going to sound anti-theistic when you drag them into a discussion about God.

    So, basically, you're punching us and asking us why we're being so violent when we punch you back.

    I really couldn't give half a crap about your belief in God.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #19 - June 28, 2016, 07:19 PM

    .............

    ............ punching......................... we're being so violent .......... punch ............
    .

    No..No..nooo no punching no violence please .,  Hello dear A Muslim., forget and forgive what people are saying here.,

    In fact "I FULLY SUPPORT THEISTS AND THEISM "  but buck stops at "golden rule" for all sides ............

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #20 - June 28, 2016, 07:20 PM

    Why don't you then stop spending countless of hours on the Internet talking about the same, ''belief'' that you seem to so undoubtedly dislike? Just a thought.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #21 - June 28, 2016, 07:21 PM

    No..No..nooo no punching no violence please .,  Hello dear A Muslim., forget and forgive what people are saying here.,

    In fact "I FULLY SUPPORT THEISTS AND THEISM "  but buck stops "golden rule" for all sides ............

    I would guess that you are being sarcastic. If not, then good man.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #22 - June 28, 2016, 07:21 PM

    Why don't you then stop spending countless of hours on the Internet talking about the same, ''belief'' that you seem to so undoubtedly dislike? Just a thought.

     Cheesy Cheesy

    ...said the Muslim who's on the ex-Muslim forum.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #23 - June 28, 2016, 07:24 PM

    Why don't you then stop spending countless of hours on the Internet talking about the same, ''belief'' that you seem to so undoubtedly dislike? Just a thought.

     Who?? Absurdist??    ibn Bilal??  me??
    I would guess that you are being sarcastic. If not, then good man.


    No..No..I am not., I am very serious on what I said A Muslim..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #24 - June 28, 2016, 07:33 PM

    yeezevee, that was towards Absurdist. However, it may also be directed to anyone else that does the same.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #25 - June 28, 2016, 07:35 PM

    Cheesy Cheesy

    ...said the Muslim who's on the ex-Muslim forum.

    I like my beliefs. There is a difference. Don't equate the two.

    If there was a halal chicken burger, I would eat it. If there was a haram burger, (full of bacon) I would not eat it - but stay away from it. Does this make sense?

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #26 - June 28, 2016, 07:37 PM

    So why do you not stay away from this forum? It's all haram. Stay away.
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #27 - June 28, 2016, 07:38 PM

    If there was a halal chicken burger, I would eat it. If there was a haram burger, (full of bacon) I would not eat it - but stay away from it. Does this make sense?

    Why not eat a haram burger?

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #28 - June 28, 2016, 07:42 PM



    Phwoar

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • I don't want to seem ignorant in saying this...
     Reply #29 - June 28, 2016, 07:46 PM

    Wow they even plaited the bacon!  cool2
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