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Theme Changer

 Topic: Challenge

 (Read 27577 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 ... 8 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Challenge
     Reply #60 - June 26, 2016, 05:35 PM

    Every time I see your posts, I have the urge to read my Camus books.

    Do it!
  • Challenge
     Reply #61 - June 26, 2016, 06:07 PM

    Every time I see your posts, I have the urge to read my Camus books.



    Ditto.

    The picture was familiar, but I had to do a reverse picture search to catch it.
  • Challenge
     Reply #62 - June 26, 2016, 08:37 PM

    Now that people started throwing some proper reasons he is not chatty anymore, kind of like God, God doesn't want to talk anymore when we have advanced in technology and don't believe hearsay anymore.

    A Muslim the pinnacle of the argument is this. You believe in Islam and Quran and Allah and maybe Hadith I don't know.
    Because you are the one making the claim in your head that these things are true, don't you think you need to prove they are true.

    It is like if I told you there is a teacup orbiting saturn, as the person making the claim I need to provide the evidence, I can not ask you to bring the greatest evidence of no teapot, no, I need to provide the greatest evidence FOR THE TEAPOT.

    So when people ask you to provide your evidence for Islam, they are not deflecting your question, they are rephrasing it because you are asking the wrong question.

    Why do you believe in Islam is more important.

    Most of us don't believe because we find contradictions to science in the quran, or morality issues; but that is not of prime importance. What is more important is that after reading the quran we have not been convinced of Islam or Allah. We have no experience with divinity, so we don't know what to look for, as a result we do not know what would prove the existence of ANY god; therefore any argument you make is invalid because you have no previous experience with Divinity so you don't know what to look for anymore than we do and it can not confirm that which we do not have any experience or understanding of. As a result it is YOU who needs to prove God not us disproving him. Good luck proving him because I will ask you over and over again how you know that is the proof of Divinity because for as long we do not know what divinity is before reading a "holy" book, your argument is nullified before the discussion starts.

    Good Luck  Narcissist

    As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
  • Challenge
     Reply #63 - June 26, 2016, 09:34 PM

    Most of these Muslims becoming ex-Muslims on this forum have very, 'emotional' reasons in their threads. I don't care about that.


    You know, it's funny. I remember this stage quite distinctly. When I first consciously found myself overwhelmed by suppressing my doubts about Islam, I expressly remember going through the arguments again in my head and trying my best to sort out and dismiss the ones I felt were based on my own emotion.

    Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, Muhammad's capture of Safiyya, Muhammad's massacre of the Jewish tribe, Muhammad's attacks on unarmed civilian enterprises, etc. I tried telling myself that my revulsion to these sorts of things were emotional, and that Allah must have known better. So I stuck to the historical, scientific, and literary arguments against Islam.

    Then, something clicked. I realized that no matter what I came across that did not make sense, no matter what I knew that simply did not match  with my own sense of morality, I was actually being controlled by my own emotion: fear.

    Fear of the violence, eternal bodily harm and physical pain that the Quran threatens its detractors with page after page. That fear was paralyzing. As I continued reading through the Quran with a fresh set of eyes, I realized this was the only case it made for itself: be afraid.


    I began thinking what I would actually believe if I weren't so hindered by my own fear. Then, I realized that even my "emotional" arguments against Islam were sound, it was just that my fear was overriding any other emotion, to the point that I would not allow myself to feel anything else.

    I was doing something I see you doing now,  defending a 54 year old marrying a 6 year old because I was afraid. Probably just like you are now, I'd interject, "but he waited until she was 9 to have sex with her!" As if that made it any better, and as if I truly believed that 6 was an acceptable age to enter into a sacred, lifelong union, or that a nine year old playing with dolls should ever be bedded by a man in his 50s.

    That fear is a powerful thing.

    Islam feeds on it. It embeds it deep into your psyche. It even has a  name for it and considers it a praiseworthy thing. Someone who is pious is someone who is afraid. Khawf. Taqwa. Rahb. It's a means to  mental slavery. Al-ubudiyyah. It's crazy that even the terms themselves don't hide what's actually going on.

    Breaking through that fear is indeed a mighty task.

    But if you can, I'd like to propose a little exercise. Close your eyes, focus your mind and your breathing,  and get in touch with your inner self. What questions would you ask if you were not hindered by fear? If you were not afraid, what things would you actually believe? What things about Islam would actually trouble YOU? What would you truly want to be doing with your life if there was no Jahannam?

    Are you happy with knowing that the only thing holding you back is  your own fear?

    Get over that fear and you can begin to feel your other emotions too. They are a part of what make you human.
  • Challenge
     Reply #64 - June 26, 2016, 10:02 PM

    Dude, you're going at way too high of a level for him, man. But beautiful, nonetheless.  Afro

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Challenge
     Reply #65 - June 26, 2016, 10:07 PM

    No one joins this forum unless they on some level think our opinions are at least valid enough to engage with.
  • Challenge
     Reply #66 - June 26, 2016, 10:30 PM

    I honestly don't know why you guys even entertain him. He's clearly being disruptive and has nothing better to do than to give "dawah" on his holier than thou pedestal.

    Your replies reify his duties to God; whom does not exist. Irrelevant to him however!
  • Challenge
     Reply #67 - June 26, 2016, 10:43 PM

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I tend to engage in discussions when I feel like it. I don't intend to change the world or even anyone's opinion. It's mostly mental masturbation.

    So yeah, joke's on him. His religion is my mental masturbation material. Although it gets boring after a while. Like vanilla porn in missionary.
  • Challenge
     Reply #68 - June 26, 2016, 10:58 PM

    Lmao
  • Challenge
     Reply #69 - June 27, 2016, 01:12 AM

    boy i give little space  and time and B Muslim comes up with raging statements .. let me answer one by one..
     
    what are you talking A Muslim?  
    what shame and what anti-Islamic claims are you talking about?
    what are  anti-Islamic claims of this forum any way?
    where did you read them?give me link I will help understand them.
    well Muslims believe lots of things ..some good some bad ...like any other faith heads of  any faith .,  So  what is the big deal about that A Muslim?

    So what if Muslim believe other religions are corrupted?  and what corruption other faiths have??  and  who corrupted and when?  without such details you are not on solid ground and it is is very hand waving statement..
    You become what? I was already under the impression that you are an Apostate Muslim ?

    what does "A" Muslim mean?.,
    does it not stand for  Apostate Muslim?  or is it Agnostic Muslim ?

    A Muslim you are confusing me .,  and you want an answer for strongest evidence/s against Islam.  right ?

    I told you i will give you answer if you are really a  "A Muslim" Not a 'B Muslim".,  We don't deal with and we don't care about   B grade Muslims dear A Muslim

    So you prove me that you are a  "A Muslim"   you know I already said this
    So you accept that then i will answer your question  A Muslim...   So you must accept that " you do  care about other faiths and other faith heads" ., With that you can start your questions again..



    ''anti-Islamic claims are you talking about?'' - Such as: ''Your Prophet was a paedophile!'', ''Your religion allows you to rape slaves in War'', etc.
    ''where did you read them?give me link I will help understand them.'' - They're all over the forums.

    ''So what if Muslim believe other religions are corrupted?  and what corruption other faiths have??  and  who corrupted and when?  without such details you are not on solid ground and it is is very hand waving statement.. '' - If we believe that the other religions are corrupted, then we obviously don't go to their scripture when discussing about Islam. Here are a number of reasons for Christianity and Judaism: http://www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm http://www.answering-christianity.com/bible.htm http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdul-rahman_klimaszewski/biblical_inconsistencies.htm http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm http://www.answering-christianity.com/bible_scientific_absurdities.htm http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac6.htm#links http://www.answering-christianity.com/sake.htm http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/15_clear_chronological_contradictions_in_the_bible.htm http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/bible_contradictions.htm http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/historical_errors_in_the_gospels-3.htm https://wardoons.wordpress.com/debate/ https://answeringchristian.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/scientific-errors-in-the-bible/#comment-7934 http://www.timesofisrael.com/controversy-lurks-as-scholars-suss-out-original-biblical-text/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slq6KA5alGw



    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #70 - June 27, 2016, 01:13 AM

    Try this on for size. I left because I no longer believe in a god. Never will again. I don't need to disprove or aegue about your religion because it is a moot point with me. Why don't  I believe? I just do not which is the same response people have for saying that they believe in a god. All reasons for either case can be argued for or against, so what it really comes down to is "a feeling".

    By the way, just as you do not care about our feelings then I don't care about yours. Fuck off.

    You left Islam because you lost faith in the belief of the existence of a creator? Fair.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #71 - June 27, 2016, 01:15 AM

    But you can try with this one:
    "Islam is a totalitarian religion* and the basic rext has remained unaltered since the iron age"


    *it tells you how to sleep, how to wash, what to eat, how to dress, how to have sex (and with whom). It is permeated by a fixation on sex, reducing women to livestock that must be covered up and not be left on their own, lest they stray or get stolen, and it reduces men to mindless horny animals, that must rape anything female not covered up in three black cloth sacks.
    (Black thick clothing under tropical temperatures.... How is that for "stupid"?)

    Fantastic, isn't it? Islam is a Dīn/Deen, or, 'Complete way of life'.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #72 - June 27, 2016, 01:18 AM

    People leave islam because they don't think it's true. Obviously it's an emotional time. As for your challenge, how many arguments do you want?

    Here's one off the top of my head. Moses is the most mentioned prophet in the quran, yet there's no proof Moses ever existed. In fact there's evidence supporting the idea the biblical/quranic figure of Moses was taken from earlier stories.

    Right... There's also no proof that a man called Bob didn't exist a thousand years ago. Do you know how I know that? Duh... I can't substantiate the evidence that he did! Really?

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #73 - June 27, 2016, 01:19 AM

    There is no god. Therefore Islam is pointless.

    God definitely does exist. If not, give me your alternatives. If you take a creator out of the picture, explain the origins of the Universe - from the beginning.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #74 - June 27, 2016, 01:22 AM

    by some of you."

    Wink. Towards your other claims: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O6pWswxprM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv7KBkBuAeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPLPN-VMX8Y

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #75 - June 27, 2016, 01:38 AM

    good good let me rephrase your post a bit for clarity

    yeezevee: ''anti-Islamic claims are you talking about?'' -


     A Muslim: Such as:

    1). ''Your Prophet was a paedophile!'',

    2).'Your religion allows you to rape slaves in War'', etc.

    ''where did you read them?give me link I will help understand them.'' - They're all over the forums.

    .. Good., good.,   A Muslim you have two points there for me to explain that forum members  might have accused Prophet of Islam., and  the other I specifically asked was   this one
    Quote

    So you came up with that  well known apologetic website with colored text in support of Islam A Muslim .,  That is OK., but don't you want to write in your own words?  anyways let me take on those  one by one of those links again.,I have done that before at FFI and here and there in this forum. but we can redo that again... So keep reading ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Challenge
     Reply #76 - June 27, 2016, 01:51 AM

    Fantastic, isn't it? Islam is a Dīn/Deen, or, 'Complete way of life'.


    What do you find in that quoted text to be "fantastic"? Are you really meaning to tell me that even beyond being told how to live one's life, the implications it makes about human nature and acceptable human behavior are "fantastic"?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Challenge
     Reply #77 - June 27, 2016, 02:02 AM

    I am Muslim, but I don't believe the Qur'an is the word of God. My strongest evidence for that is that there is no reason to believe it is.

    You haven't rationally deduced the existence of a God, or force, that created the entire Universe?

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #78 - June 27, 2016, 02:03 AM

    It treats myths and mythical figures as real, aka Moses and the Exodus.

    Also you are probably bound to Islam due to emotions just like everyone else is. Religions tended to do that since all fail when it comes to demonstrating their claims.

    How are they, ''myths''? I must add, the Biblical account of the Exodus is NOT the same as the Qur'anic account.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #79 - June 27, 2016, 02:04 AM

    good good let me rephrase your post a bit for clarity.. Good., good.,   A Muslim you have two points there for me to explain that forum members  might have accused Prophet of Islam., and  the other I specifically asked was   this oneSo you came up with that  well known apologetic website with colored text in support of Islam A Muslim .,  That is OK., but don't you want to write in your own words?  anyways let me take on those  one by one of those links again.,I have done that before at FFI and here and there in this forum. but we can redo that again... So keep reading ..

    What do you find in that quoted text to be "fantastic"? Are you really meaning to tell me that even beyond being told how to live one's life, the implications it makes about human nature and acceptable human behavior are "fantastic"?

    Fantastic.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #80 - June 27, 2016, 02:06 AM

    Fantastic, isn't it? Islam is a Dīn/Deen, or, 'Complete way of life'.


    I can't say that I am happy that you confirm the totalitarian nature, but I am not surprised that you do.

    You will be in my thoughts when I take my morning crap today.
    Especially because the porcelain throne is positioned  so I crap towards the sunrise and whatever else is in that direction
  • Challenge
     Reply #81 - June 27, 2016, 02:10 AM

    good good let me rephrase your post a bit for clarity.. Good., good.,   A Muslim you have two points there for me to explain that forum members  might have accused Prophet of Islam., and  the other I specifically asked was   this oneSo you came up with that  well known apologetic website with colored text in support of Islam A Muslim .,  That is OK., but don't you want to write in your own words?  anyways let me take on those  one by one of those links again.,I have done that before at FFI and here and there in this forum. but we can redo that again... So keep reading ..

    Why should I waste my time rephrasing words when it's already done for me? No thanks.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #82 - June 27, 2016, 02:16 AM

    Now that people started throwing some proper reasons he is not chatty anymore, kind of like God, God doesn't want to talk anymore when we have advanced in technology and don't believe hearsay anymore.

    Most of us don't believe because we find contradictions to science in the quran, or morality issues; but that is not of prime importance. What is more important is that after reading the quran we have not been convinced of Islam or Allah. We have no experience with divinity, so we don't know what to look for, as a result we do not know what would prove the existence of ANY god; therefore any argument you make is invalid because you have no previous experience with Divinity so you don't know what to look for anymore than we do and it can not confirm that which we do not have any experience or understanding of. As a result it is YOU who needs to prove God not us disproving him. Good luck proving him because I will ask you over and over again how you know that is the proof of Divinity because for as long we do not know what divinity is before reading a "holy" book, your argument is nullified before the discussion starts.

    Good Luck  Narcissist

    No. I hope you have remembered: IT'S RAMADAN! I have a family. I take them to the Masjid for the Taraweeh prayers. Please, don't get too comfortable.

    Please list these: ''contradictions to science'', ''morality issues'' that you may have. You call yourself an 'atheist', which are supposed to be the *cough* intelligent and enlightened ones, but you don't even look at the evidence at hand and present them. How embarrassing.


    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #83 - June 27, 2016, 03:23 AM

    Read my message again Shit brains.

    I said what is MORE IMPORTANT IS FOR YOU TO PROVE THE DIVINITY OF THE QURAN.

    Like I said before Scientific Inaccuracies are LESS IMPORTANT, because even if we discuss the science in the Quran, even if you could convince me there is no error, I could not become a muslim.
    This is because the most important issue you need to rectify is how to establish Divine Origin.

    If you could prove Divine origins of the quran I would be willing to discuss Scientific errors, until YOU PROVE THE QURAN CAME FROM GOD, any other discussion is fruitless.

    Once again WE HAVE NO EXPERIENCE OR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IS DIVINE BECAUSE WE ARE STUCK IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD. How will you prove Divinity, You believe Quran is from God, I am saying "I DON'T KNOW WHAT GOD IS, CAN YOU DESCRIBE GOD WITHOUT LENDING TO ISLAM AND USING EVIDENCE? THEN CAN YOU PROVE THE QURAN CAME FROM GOD"?

    Listen up Muslim instead of snickering why don't you show us how smart you are, you are among the few muslims brave enough to traverse this forum so you must have full conviction in your belief and you must think you are intelligent enough to convince us, so why don't we see what you can do,
    Lest you are not willing to look at your beliefs from an unbiased view and objectively ask yourself how you can prove it is from God when you do not know what God is. Don't use circular logic, don't tell me the Quran tells you what God is therefore it must be true. Suppose you are not muslim and you pick up the quran and read it, how would you establish it is from divine origin when you have never experienced Divinity, I do not know therefore god is facetious.

    Unless, you are not allowed to think this deep because the fucking devil is whispering in your ear "fucking kid grow up", do you believe in your faith that much that you are willing to scrutinize it yourself and see if you can even prove it to yourself?

    If not, we know who the intelligent one is, and that would indicate it is not you.

    Do you want to know why I left Islam, I believed it wholeheartedly and like you defended it around non-muslims, unlike you I did not make fun of anyone. I really believed the Quran was miraculous and could not be fallible, I believed in Islam so much I was not scared to scrutinize it from an unbiased view because I KNEW that I would Prove Islam true to myself. I knew the more I questioned the more sure I would be. Well I did question it and tried to see if the Quran could even prove the divine origin of itself, I was shocked that it did not rest on any argument even remotely sound.

    I lowered my mental barriers and was willing to look at it from an object lens, that is why I consider myself intelligent, are you willing to do yourself the honour of looking at this faith from an unbiased view,, or are you too shaky in your imaan that you may leave the fold of Islam, or do you not care and only maintain Islam because you were born to it.

    If you consider yourself at all intelligent and worth any of our time, tell us, are you willing to look at your Book as a skeptic not taking any sides and just following the evidence? If so, then PROVE DIVINITY, and don't tell me the Quran is divine because no one has produced a verse like it. That is an incredibly subjective test, and no way to determine if it is like the Quran, also Newton WROTE THE FIRST BOOK ON THE MOTION OF OBJECTS AND INVENTED FUCKING CALCULUS ON HIS OWN TO SOLVE HIS PHYSICS EQUATIONS. HE DID THIS ALL BEFORE TURNING 30. Does that make him divine because no one else to this day has been able to accomplish such a task in Science by age 30? Of course not, just because something has not been replicated does not prove divinity.

    Also we do not know the limits of the Human brain, something happening rarely does not prove divinity, at best it shows someone was smart. And dont you dare ask me how Muhammad could be smart if he was illiterate, at that time people didn't read tons of books to become knowledgeable or intelligent, movement of ideas happened aurally.

    PROVE DIVINITY, AND HOW DO YOU KNOW SUCH EVIDENCE INDICATES DIVINITY? WE HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED DIVINITY SO WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR.

    Let's see if you REALLY believe in your religion  Wink

    As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
  • Challenge
     Reply #84 - June 27, 2016, 03:34 AM

    I'll edit this post into a reply later, (it's late here).

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Challenge
     Reply #85 - June 27, 2016, 03:40 AM

    Sure no problem, look bro, if you want to have an intellectual discussion you need to be ready to have one, if you really consider what we are saying the discussion can continue, if not people will just start ignoring you.
    Good luck on your quest to find the truth, a Quest we are all on and will stay on for our entire lives whether we like it or not  Afro

    As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
  • Challenge
     Reply #86 - June 27, 2016, 03:43 AM

    Do it!

    Haha. I am currently in the process of reading. Taking a break.


    Ditto.

    The picture was familiar, but I had to do a reverse picture search to catch it.


    Ah. I have been obsessed with Camus since I was a teenager.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Re: Challenge
     Reply #87 - June 27, 2016, 05:29 AM

    God definitely does exist. If not, give me your alternatives. If you take a creator out of the picture, explain the origins of the Universe - from the beginning.

    Seven thousand years ago, you might have gazed at the volcano and said, "The God of the Mountain definitely does exist. If you take the God of the Mountain out of the picture, explain the eruption and the cloud of smoke and the earthquakes." But today, we understand plate tectonics and the flow of magma beneath the earth's crust.

    Six thousand years ago, you might have waded through the aftermath of a tsunami and said, "The God of the Sea definitely does exist. Without the Sea God, explain a wave of such epic and wrathful proportion." But today, we understand the role of undersea quakes and plate movement in creating giant waves.

    Five thousand years ago, you might have taken shelter from a tempest and said, "The God of the Sky definitely exists. What alternative exists to explain the darkening of the sky, the terrible flashes of lightning, the angry echoes of thunder, the horrific funnel-shaped cloud that obliterates everything in its path?" But today, we understand meteorology, cold fronts, low pressure systems, tornadoes.

    Four thousand years ago, you might have looked upon an eclipse and said, "The God of the Moon definitely exists. If not, what is the alternative? What else could cause the moon to blot out the sun?" But today, we understand the orbital dynamics of objects in our solar system.

    Three thousand years ago, you might have said, "The God of Nature definitely exists. If you take the God of Nature out of the picture, explain the origin of all these plants and animals. From the beginning." But today, we understand evolution.

    Two thousand years ago, you might have said, "The God of Earth definitely exists. Who else could have created the planet Earth?" But today, we understand how our solar system formed following the Big Bang.

    Today, you say, "The God of the Universe definitely exists. If you take a creator out of the picture, explain the origins of the Universe - from the beginning."

    Just because we don't have the answer now, it doesn't mean God is the answer, and it doesn't mean we will never have the answer. It's OK to not know.
  • Challenge
     Reply #88 - June 27, 2016, 05:37 AM

    If the universe needs a creator, then so does God. And God has to be more complex than the universe for him to create the universe, which means his creation was much less likely.
  • Challenge
     Reply #89 - June 27, 2016, 05:47 AM

    ^They do not ascribe to that, they are saying that everything needs a cause, but this can not go on infinitely so that is why they say there is a prime mover (God).
    However we can reverse this argument on them and say we do not need a prime mover because quantum mechanics allows us to create matter and consequently universes out of nothing (The universe is the prime mover and this does not violate any laws of physics and logic is based off the laws of physics and it has been proven that this is in harmony with the laws of physics as such it is perfectly logical and you can not say this is illogical, if you do, then you just lack the understanding of logic).

    As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
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