Moses, the Fish and the resurrection of Jesus (surah al-Kahf)

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- AristideSarrac
- Member
- offline
Moses, the Fish and the resurrection of Jesus (surah al-Kahf)
OP - June 09, 2016, 10:06 AM

Dear all,

I recently found an interesting topic on the story of Moses and al-Khadir in surah 18. The verse 61 talks about a fish. According to Geneviève Gobillot, this fish, supposedly dead, " which took its course through the sea", symbolyzes Jesus.
In her opinion, "le lecteur du Coran est invité à comprendre que le poisson apparemment mort qui reprend vie, c’est Jésus, et que Moïse est à la recherche de Jésus. La Terre promise que Moïse ne verra pas, c’est la résurrection".
Indeed, in early christianity, the Fish (Ichtus) symbolized Jesus.
This interpretation is ingenious and plausible, since surah 18 was probably composed by christian authors using well-known christian stories as the Seven Sleepers.
What do you think about Gobillot's theory ?

Best regards
- Ursus
- Godless heathen
- Member
- offline
Moses, the Fish and the resurrection of Jesus (surah al-Kahf)
Reply #1 - June 09, 2016, 10:25 AM

Welcome

It is customary at such occasions to present people with a parrot:

I think, that when someone has "a theory about what something symbolizes", then that is what it is. No more, no less.
Until it is substantiated, it is just "a theory". If it is substantiated and solves other hitherto unbreakable problems, then "ingenious" may apply.

Since the koran draws heavily on jewish and christian mythology, it is in no way unlikely, but does it change anything substantial?

That there is a "fish" mentioned, does not automatically make it christian.

The early christians did use the fish as a secret handshake, but fish are pretty common, in nature as well as mythology.
Just because the satanists like goats, any reference to a goat in the bible does not make it a hidden reference to bronze age satanism.
- Zaotar
- Pub Regular
- offline
Moses, the Fish and the resurrection of Jesus (surah al-Kahf)
Reply #2 - June 09, 2016, 12:24 PM

Welcome!

That theory is not really correct in my mind. The reference to the resurrected fish is derived from the Syriac Alexander legends, which in turn are derived from the story of Gilgamesh searching for the waters of immortality. Tesei talks about it here.

http://www.almuslih.org/Library/Tesei,%20T%20-%20Some%20Cosmological%20Notions%20from%20Late%20Antiquity.pdf

In the Alexander legends, his cook takes a dead fish and searches for the waters of immortality by putting it in water from various springs/rivers. When the fish comes alive and escapes, then he has found the waters of immortality.

The fish is not itself a symbol of Christ, although in Syriac theology Christ makes man immortal by distributing the "Medicine of Life," the Syriac phrase for the Eucharist, bringing them into paradise. So the idea of a river flowing from paradise (the land of Christ) that carries immortality with it is very much a background of how Syriac Christianity envisioned the world, and which the Qur'an inherits.

What is significant about the Qur'anic version is that Alexander has been quite deliberately replaced with Moses. And this is very typical of quranic typology, which takes older Christian typology and deliberately renders it in pre-Christian form centered on Moses.
- AristideSarrac
- Member
- offline
Moses, the Fish and the resurrection of Jesus (surah al-Kahf)
Reply #3 - June 09, 2016, 04:22 PM

Thanks for your answers !

As you said, seeing the Fish as a symbole for Jesus is just a theory. Yet, in the context, this theory seems very likely, since Moses seeks and announces Jesus (one can read it as a typology).
What you say about Alexander and Moses is very interesting. I read somewhere that could be a mistake. Indeed, Alexander is identified as Dhul-Qarnayn. Yet, in some hebrew text or representation of Moses, this one has also two horns.
- Zaotar
- Pub Regular
- offline
Moses, the Fish and the resurrection of Jesus (surah al-Kahf)
Reply #4 - June 09, 2016, 05:08 PM

That isn't how the Qur'anic story goes though. Moses and his 'young man' (the cook from the Alexander version) are searching for the water of immortality. They already have the fish, they aren't searching for it. Then Moses happens to be hungry, and asks for the fish, and the young man tells him it had already left, swimming off. So Moses realizes that where it swam off from must have been where the waters of paradise were coming out. So he rushes back.

Jacob of Serugh gave a pre-Islamic sermon about the Alexander fish story. Since the fish doesn't symbolize Christ even when the story was told in Syriac Christian literature, I have a hard time seeing how it would be intended as a symbol of Christ when the story was retold in the Qur'an. Here is the Syriac precursor of the Qur'anic story, from Jacob's sermon:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Budge/172-173.htm

Now the replacement of Alexander ('horned' in Syriac literature) by Moses (also horned), as you say, does strike me as a fascinating typological argument. In the Syriac Alexander legends, Alexander is an eschatological figure who prefigures the ideal Christian emperor that ushers in God's reign. Why does Moses get written over Alexander in the Qur'an versions? Actually Moses gets written over everything in quranic typology, including Jesus. A blanket of Moses-ization is applied. War is declared against Christian typology, consciously, which is rewritten to exalt Moses and his typological successor, the quranic messenger.
- AristideSarrac
- Member
- offline
Moses, the Fish and the resurrection of Jesus (surah al-Kahf)
Reply #5 - June 09, 2016, 05:44 PM

I agree with your statements on Jesus and the fish. Gobillot's theory is not impossible, but actually weak.
Nevertheless, you argue that typology in the Quran is used in anti-christian perspective, Jesus being "remplaced" by Moise.

Yet, Q3:59 makes a typology between Adam and Jesus. Jesus is the new Adam. This statement is well-know in Syriac Christian literature (see St Ephrem).
Moreover, Jesus appears in the Quran as the Messiah, the Word of God etc.. In my opinion, quran was written by christian "heterodox" authors...

And what about the identity of the "quranic messenger" ?
- Zaotar
- Pub Regular
- offline
Moses, the Fish and the resurrection of Jesus (surah al-Kahf)
Reply #6 - June 09, 2016, 06:22 PM

I think the Qur'an reflects a sort of conscious deviation away from Christian precedent and typology. I am not sure if I would go so far as to say its authors were 'Christian,' so much as they were rewriting Christianity into new forms.

Q 3:59 does make a typology between Adam and Jesus, but I read it as saying that they are both created 'near' God because they are created in a sort of sinless divine form by a divine command ... not born like normal humans. That is definitely derived from Syriac Christianity, I agree.

Q 3:59 is often taken as arguing that both Adam and Jesus are created beings, refuting Christian belief that Jesus was the son of God. But that's not really what it is saying, I think. It is explaining why they are both created *near to God*, as special new creations.

The identity of the quranic messenger is an extremely complicated and difficult subject!
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Moses, the Fish and the resurrection of Jesus (surah al-Kahf)
Reply #7 - June 09, 2016, 07:19 PM

Quote from: Zaotar on June 09, 2016, 06:22 PM
................The identity of the quranic messenger is an extremely complicated and difficult subject!....

The reason for that appears to be simple., By the time Quran became book as we see now there must have been many Qurnic messengers adding to those so-called Meccan Quran or hadith qudsi., In that whole book if we remove those OT & NT stories, the only thing that is new in it is "Jesus Christ is NOT son of god..allah.." whatever the name folks say.,

Whole book is full of repeated statements and repeated stories of OT & NT to reinforce this new faith in to the new followers and put fear in to the minds of those who may question the new faith and the new messenger character that is made way after the alleged Muhammad PBUH .. whole life story of the central Character "Muhammad" made up of or depicted in Islam is very simple. In fact With the exception of early Islam, whole Chronological History of Islamis very simple

Quote
571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. ..
605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.

where did they get all that story and when ... ?? that is for Crime Branch Inspectors of Islamic History.. the so-called Academic Scholars that are TENURED as faculty members of some western universities .,

That CID work on early Islam is NOT for Non-tenured Academic Scholars.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- AristideSarrac
- Member
- offline
Moses, the Fish and the resurrection of Jesus (surah al-Kahf)
Reply #8 - June 10, 2016, 08:55 AM

In my opinion, typology between Adam and Jesus reflects a nestorian point of view.
Moreover, Quran almost always talks about Jesus as "the son of Mary", and rejects his sonship. Thus, Mary is not the bearer of God (Theotokos), but the bearer of the Messiah (Christokos).
1« Previous thread | Next thread »