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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Which is more realistic - leaving Islam or apostasy?
  • Reform - 4 (33.3%)
  • Apostasy - 8 (66.7%)
  • Total Voters: 12

 Topic: Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?

 (Read 8518 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     OP - May 31, 2016, 08:05 PM
    Title says it all. I'm interested in what Ex-Muslims here think.
  • Which is more realistic - leaving Islam or apostasy?
     Reply #1 - May 31, 2016, 08:06 PM
    Did you mean "reforming Islam" or apostasy?
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #2 - May 31, 2016, 08:11 PM
    Okay, obvious question: leaving Islam tends to imply apostasy, so - realistic for whom?
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #3 - May 31, 2016, 08:12 PM
    Damn! Yes!

    The question is:

    Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #4 - May 31, 2016, 08:12 PM
    For Muslims in general
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #5 - May 31, 2016, 08:27 PM
    Honestly, if anything non-literal and non-conformist is considered apostasy, as it is in a good majority of Muslim circles, then I think apostasy will be the first step. It's only after you break free of that mental barrier that people can begin to explore what a "reformed" Islam might look like for them individually.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #6 - May 31, 2016, 08:29 PM
    Good point Bilal. But the journey didn't stop with apostasy for me and I suspect it won't for many others. So the question still stands.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #7 - May 31, 2016, 08:36 PM
    I don't think Islam ever really leaves you. So, if whatever is left afterwards is considered "reformed" Islam, then yes, Islam can be reformed.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #8 - May 31, 2016, 08:42 PM
    Sadaqa allahu al-atheem
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #9 - May 31, 2016, 08:46 PM
    How does one reform an ideology? Well, one may opt out, or attempt to seize its reins, by persuasion or by force.

    Apostasy is something that an individual may do as an reflection of their true beliefs, even if the implications of apostasy may require one to live in hiding of one sort or another (probably highly dependent on where one is). It requires little but a conscience to accomplish, and - if not treated as an end stage by the apostate - may help modify religious fashions down the road (assuming, of course, that the current vogue for Salafi or hyper-Salafi modes is just that).

    Whereas Reform (capitalisation deliberate) implies modifying power structures - or, at the very least, the people at their apex, and somewhat implies that one's interests are best served by at least a veneer of continuity. Conventional wisdom* might suggest that a campaign of Reform would best be run by movements with sufficient political support, with all that implies - a leadership, an ideological core of supporters, and mass support as led by da'ies or similar figures; the question of 'where' also rears its head here, as the necessity of infiltration and/or cooptation of the bodies wielding armed force may be necessary, depending on local political circumstances and how quietist one chooses to be.

    But perhaps I've misunderstood the question.


    *This sounds to me suspiciously reminiscent of the way that the leadership of the MB in Egypt conducted its business in the 1970s and 1980s.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #10 - May 31, 2016, 08:54 PM
    You don't think people power can change things from bottom up?

    In my experience there is a great desire amongst ordinary Muslims.

    They just need more people to shout: , “The emperor is naked!"

    Critical point is rapidly approaching imho
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #11 - May 31, 2016, 08:54 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 31, 2016, 08:42 PM
    Sadaqa allahu al-atheem


    You are the Mahdi of my reformed Islam, btw.  Smiley
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #12 - May 31, 2016, 08:55 PM
    You'd be surprised how many people I've found receptive to the idea of a fallible Qur'an.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #13 - May 31, 2016, 08:56 PM
    Quote from: ibn Bilal on May 31, 2016, 08:54 PM
    You are the Mahdi of my reformed Islam, btw.  Smiley


    Lol well for better or worse that's the drum I shall beat to my grave.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #14 - May 31, 2016, 09:02 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 31, 2016, 08:54 PM
    You don't think people power can change things from bottom up?


    That rather depends on how the top is organised, how the people on top got there, and what pressures they face in remaining there. It's all very well for people to claim that an emperor wears no clothes, but it can be very dangerous to assume that power vanishes in the face of laughter alone.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #15 - May 31, 2016, 09:06 PM
    Obviously you haven't absorbed the message in this song enough by rasool Allah Bob Dylan

    https://youtu.be/e7qQ6_RV4VQ
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #16 - May 31, 2016, 09:28 PM
     Smiley

    I'm afraid Shaitan got to me long before Sayyidina Bob did.

    https://youtu.be/zYMD_W_r3Fg
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #17 - May 31, 2016, 09:33 PM
    I don't believe in identity politics and as such don't believe in dichotomous identities such as Muslim vs. ex-Muslim. I know it sounds weird to a lot of people, but to me the opposite (i.e. the need to identify as one or the other) is just as weird. To me the question isn't whether it's to be a Muslim and change the religion from within or leave the religion altogether, but rather if it's possible to be both simultaneously. And the answer as I see it is yes. I feel I belong in Muslim spaces just as much as I belong in ex-Muslim spaces, and I feel I don't belong in Muslim spaces just as much as I don't belong in ex-Muslim spaces.

    I'm a Muslim or an ex-Muslim depending on what definition you use. Most ex-Muslims use the definition prescribed by conservative Muslims, but I think that gives conservative Muslims too much power and reinforces their position.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #18 - May 31, 2016, 10:00 PM
    Quote from: toor on May 31, 2016, 09:02 PM
    That rather depends on how the top is organised, how the people on top got there, and what pressures they face in remaining there. It's all very well for people to claim that an emperor wears no clothes, but it can be very dangerous to assume that power vanishes in the face of laughter alone.

    I second the contingency of it all as shown by Maulana toor above. I voted for apostasy, if I'm fully honest, for temperamental reasons. The technicolour or primary colours approach is too optimistic for me to to be true.

    In Heretic, Ayaan Hirsi Ali has engaged in an exercise of self-branding in order for her otherwise valid arguments to be even considered by her intended audience (Muslim people).

    How desperate can you get in trying to be heard in your reformative endeavours? And is there not a converse case here with Muhammad getting disheartened about not getting the ear of the great and influential of his day?

     إن الذين حقت عليهم كلمة ربك لا يؤمنون ولو جاءتهم كل آية حتى يروا العذاب الآليم -- سورة يونس

    This make-believe labeling on her part gets undermined by her repeated appearances on Fox News, amongst other platforms, denouncing Islam in the strongest possible ways she can muster. In Katie Hopkins' words on a similar theme when she was made a columnist on the Daily Mail; "they know what they're getting when they hired me [alright]!"

    Ayann is otherwise a heroine of mine but I find her dishonest branding stunt (that she's still a Muslim albeit a heretical one for the purpose of debating Muslims and getting a look in from them) to be a marketing gimmick which is really beneath her.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #19 - May 31, 2016, 10:10 PM
    I am genuinely Muslim. I tried ExMuslim. It doesn't fit. Islam was the religion lovingly wrapped around me along with my name, identity and place in this world.

    So I have earned the right to take control of it.

    And control of it I will take.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #20 - May 31, 2016, 10:43 PM
    Then my nasiha to you, sheikh, is not to concern yourself too much with actively trying to "reform" Islam. Instead, continue to be open and honest with the world about your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. Some will call you crazy. Others will call you wrong. Others, still, will recognize your sincerity as they see it in their own selves. That will be the driver of change.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #21 - May 31, 2016, 10:50 PM
    Thanks Bilal , well that's what I'm doing - being me - the stupid heart on the sleeve fool I've always been
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #22 - May 31, 2016, 10:56 PM
    Hassan. You are forgetting to put a third option. Apathetic towards religion.

    Thats people for whom Islam does not play a huge portion of their lives and is mainly a cultural thing.


    The only people who would be willing to identify as a reform muslim or ex muslim are people who have delved into the religion and gave islam some serious thought.

    The majority of the muslim world don't do that and just go along with whatever their parents taught them or their friends are doing.

    What will end up happening is that as critical thinking is promoted more in the muslim world and muslim communities people will still loosely identify as muslims but simply become less practicing and won't place much importance on theology.

    Thats how it worked with christians in the west.  There was no progressive christian movement that convinced them to take on more liberal positions such as womens and lgbt rights. They simply happened with more critical thinking and education while remaining "Christians" where christianity was reduced to a cultural practice like christmas.

    Now of course after most muslims have become apathetic they will move towards apostasy as the next step.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #23 - May 31, 2016, 11:04 PM
    Perhaps. But I don't think so
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #24 - May 31, 2016, 11:08 PM
    I think apostasy will become irrelevant and unnecessary once apathy becomes more common.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #25 - June 01, 2016, 03:22 AM
    Quote from: Absurdist on May 31, 2016, 09:33 PM
    And the answer as I see it is yes. I feel I belong in Muslim spaces just as much as I belong in ex-Muslim spaces, and I feel I don't belong in Muslim spaces just as much as I don't belong in ex-Muslim spaces.


    I think this works, because until now those two spaces have been entirely distinct and do not overlap. To the point where even the existence of ex-Muslims is denied in Muslim spaces.

    Once Muslims begin to be forced to confront reality then I think the problem of handing over the definition to conservative Muslims can be addressed, but until then it seems functionally impossible to meaningfully interact within Islam for an ex-Muslim.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #26 - June 01, 2016, 03:37 AM
    Quote from: Absurdist on May 31, 2016, 11:08 PM
    I think apostasy will become irrelevant and unnecessary once apathy becomes more common.

     

    Exactly.
     
    That point is not too far off for muslim communities in the west.  I can see most western muslims becoming apathetic in the next forty to fifty years.

    As for muslims in South Asia and the Middle East I can't see their secular movements going mainstream if the countries in question are politically unstable.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #27 - June 01, 2016, 03:47 AM
    Quote from: ibn Bilal on May 31, 2016, 08:27 PM
    Honestly, if anything non-literal and non-conformist is considered apostasy, as it is in a good majority of Muslim circles, then I think apostasy will be the first step. It's only after you break free of that mental barrier that people can begin to explore what a "reformed" Islam might look like for them individually.

     


    The main issue I have with non literal interpretations of Islam is that they just won't hold up to criticism from islamic clerics.

    The only way to gain the upper-hand over them is to criticize religion directly.  Attempting to use non literal progressive islam to defeat orthodox islam is like trying to win a boxing match while wearing a straight jacket.

    I mean its not a coincidence that the exmuslim movement has surpassed the progressive muslim movement in size despite the fact that progressive muslim orgs have existed since before the exmuslim scene started exploding.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #28 - June 01, 2016, 03:52 AM
    Quote from: ibn Bilal on May 31, 2016, 08:36 PM
    I don't think Islam ever really leaves you. So, if whatever is left afterwards is considered "reformed" Islam, then yes, Islam can be reformed.

       

    Thats true for people who leave later in life and have had their adulthood molded by islam.   

    Many if not most exmuslims leave in their twenties or earlier so Islam can be considered one of those weird phases you go through in your youth.

     
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #29 - June 01, 2016, 06:24 AM
    Quote from: asbie on June 01, 2016, 03:22 AM
    Once Muslims begin to be forced to confront reality then I think the problem of handing over the definition to conservative Muslims can be addressed, but until then it seems functionally impossible to meaningfully interact within Islam for an ex-Muslim.

    We have completely different experiences.

    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on June 01, 2016, 03:52 AM
    Thats true for people who leave later in life and have had their adulthood molded by islam.   

    Many if not most exmuslims leave in their twenties or earlier so Islam can be considered one of those weird phases you go through in your youth.

    I stopped praying at 12, left Islam at 16, moved out at 18. Islam never left me. Nor do I want it to.
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