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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Do you think Britain should leave the EU?  (Voting closed: March 18, 2016, 08:18 PM)
  • Yes - 9 (42.9%)
  • No - 12 (57.1%)
  • Undecided - 0 (0%)
  • Total Voters: 21

 Topic: Brexit - yes or no?

 (Read 39632 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 9 10 1112 13 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #300 - June 29, 2016, 08:53 PM

    And it's night time and you're blind. Hard to see so see with your heart.  Huh? Ne Age mumbo jumbo.


    I was talking about your profile pic. Jedi are not New Age but from a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #301 - June 29, 2016, 09:21 PM

       

    I wasn't being aggressive lol   Cry      far away hug

     far away hug sorry I misinterpreted your post, suki. Let's be friends Smiley
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #302 - June 29, 2016, 09:39 PM

    Good point and I like it.

    I'll second that.

    SilentMancunian, I like your perspective. Did you study politics by any chance?
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #303 - June 30, 2016, 01:01 AM

    I was talking about your profile pic. Jedi are not New Age but from a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away


    I enjoyed reading this three way between you guys.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Re: Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #304 - June 30, 2016, 01:22 AM

    If I had to correct you whenever you're wrong we'd be here all day.

    But dude, you are here all day.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #305 - June 30, 2016, 02:36 AM

    I seem to be in a minority here, having dared to vote leave. I'm feeling like I have to justify my opinions. And I do not like the implication that I'm somehow to blame for any or all of these attacks, just because of how I voted.


    I know exactly how that feels, I spent Iftar with friends from high school today and they were talking about Brexit. An hour or so later, I got bored listening to their little group think session and decided to let them know that I never voted but was in favour of Leave, which I have been for a few years. All of a sudden the atmosphere changed and it was like I had just revealed to them that I'm not a Muslim. I had to explain everything from the economy to immigration, it just didn't seem plausible to them that a person can vote leave on the basis of immigration policies and not be a racist.

    Maybe if I didn't have years of practice of having explain the universe from an atheistic perspective I would of just got frustrated and walked out, there was 8 of them vs me. But like with a lot of Muslims from the same environment, that have identical views of religion, they had exactly the same simplistic view of Brexit and hadn't took much consideration in making their decision. Eventually, being the devil that I am, I managed to make them see that Brexit can be the rational choice for a person even when their biggest concern is immigration.

    I'll second that.

    SilentMancunian, I like your perspective. Did you study politics by any chance?


    No, I studied Mechanical Engineering at university. I have spent a lot of time discussing politics ever since I became more open about being an atheist and have read a lot of Non Fiction books, but never any formal education in Politics.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #306 - June 30, 2016, 06:15 AM

    Quote
    I got bored listening to their little group think session and decided to let them know that I never voted but was in favour of Leave, which I have been for a few years. All of a sudden the atmosphere changed and it was like I had just revealed to them that I'm not a Muslim. I had to explain everything from the economy to immigration, it just didn't seem plausible to them that a person can vote leave on the basis of immigration policies and not be a racist.


    Ok. That explains a lot about the motive behind your argument.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #307 - June 30, 2016, 02:47 PM

    Ok. That explains a lot about the motive behind your argument.

    This is my first post in the thread, you most likely didn't see it.
    Racism was definitely a major factor in getting some people to Vote Leave. If it wasn't, Farage wouldn't of done the Breaking Point poster of Syrian Refugees and Turkey wouldn't of been such a key issue despite the fact it is not part of the EU. To claim race was not an issue when it came to immigration is disingenuous.

    I don't think the majority of people who voted Leave were racist or xenophobic, even if Immigration was the deciding factor, there are many issues that the EU open border policy free movement did create especially among the lower social classes. If Vote Leave genuinely focused on societal issues I would of voted for them, but the fear of the other was certainly the best way for them to rally the troops, therefore I abstained.

    It is funny that so many people actually believed the Neoliberal Gove, Farage and BoJo actually care for the working class and the NHS. The white underclass/working class will always be ignored by the establishment. Maybe they will learn that it was Westminister who were fucking them all along rather than Brussels.

    There was certainly a Progressive argument to Leave the EU but that certainly wasn't very vocal in the referendum.


    My main issue with the EU is the vacuum of unaccountability that it creates by allowing Government/Media to blame the EU/Immigrants whenever there are problems in our society, rather that the feckless politicians that we have.

    Yesterday, when my friends were talking about Brexit, it was as if the country had just voted in UKIP/BNP to run the country. UKIP doesn't have a say in what happens next, only the Conservative party does, so the mass hysteria that many people in cities like Manchester are going through is over the top. One of the guys, he is the son of a Labour Councillor, tried to blame Corbyn for Britain leaving the EU which was the thing that made me break silence since it just neglects everything that has gone on in this country prior to the vote.

    The Lord Ashcroft Poll, which was conducted on the day of the referendum, clearly shows how disconnected major cities are from the rest of the country. Many people seem to have a distorted view of what British society is and how people could of been affected in a negative way by being in the EU.

    It feels like I'm on the verge of a rant so I'm going to end it with this. There is a religious element to Brexit debates that seems reminiscent of leaving Islam. If you are part of the demographic who are most likely to vote Remain (young, university educated and from an immigrant background) and you decide the best option is to Vote Leave, it feels like you have turned against your own kind and are now a social pariah who should be equated with the most extreme people on the Leave side.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #308 - June 30, 2016, 06:05 PM

    I was talking about your profile pic. Jedi are not New Age but from a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away


    Family Guy: 'A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away....but somehow in the future.   dance

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #309 - June 30, 2016, 06:08 PM


    Yesterday, when my friends were talking about Brexit, it was as if the country had just voted in UKIP/BNP to run the country. UKIP doesn't have a say in what happens next, only the Conservative party does, so the mass hysteria that many people in cities like Manchester are going through is over the top. One of the guys, he is the son of a Labour Councillor, tried to blame Corbyn for Britain leaving the EU which was the thing that made me break silence since it just neglects everything that has gone on in this country prior to the vote.



    UKIP and BNP have had better representation and electoral victories within the EP elections than they have ever had. This compounded by the fact that the parties then sit in a transnational groups along ideological lines.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #310 - June 30, 2016, 06:20 PM

    Boris Johnson: Downfall
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?ebc=ANyPxKo2_2OMqrimNmqPjmu6ZLiq1W3iOYp_LY8mQhQe3M5PufsHwlrZtp5E3tlhzZfGUf3vev6d&v=-a6HNXtdvVQ
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #311 - June 30, 2016, 06:54 PM

    I enjoyed reading this three way between you guys.


    Hah I was just trying to lighten the mood.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #312 - June 30, 2016, 07:08 PM



    Hilarious Cheesy!

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #313 - June 30, 2016, 07:29 PM

    UKIP and BNP have had better representation and electoral victories within the EP elections than they have ever had. This compounded by the fact that the parties then sit in a transnational groups along ideological lines.


    That is true, the far right in the UK and Europe is at it strongest than it has ever been. But, the UK EP elections have a lower turnout (under 40%) and uses the proportional representation system so the results in those elections will never be replicated in general elections. The proportion of the vote in other elections for UKIP is a lot lower, ranging from around 13% to 21% in local elections.

    UKIP started gaining momentum in 2004 (they were mainly a protest vote), around the time UK open the borders ahead of schedule to Eastern European migrants. Considering that the UK government estimated around 15,000 increase in net migration which ended up being over 300,000 just shows how incompetent politicians are. Without the massive increase in numbers, and if Labour dealt with the issue in the right manner rather than making anyone who talked about immigration seem bigoted or racist, then surely we wouldn't be in the mess we are in right now.

    At the moment UKIP does not have any control in Westminister, Douglas Carswell being their only MP, so they certainly do not have much of a platform to make demands on the direction the country will go in post-Brexit.

    We will only find out how popular the far right is at the next election as UKIP has historically been a single-issue party and now that they have achieved their goal there is no guarantee that they will maintain their voter base. However, there is no guarantee that the Conservative will keep there voter base, due to the type of campaign Vote Leave ran, so the next election certainly should clarify what state the country is actually in.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #314 - June 30, 2016, 07:36 PM

    It is a common assumption that this is the case and I would not be surprised but how would one measure this? How to gather the evidence to verify such a claim. Of course, the news coming indicates that there are racist incidents following the EU referendum. BUT are they being reported now when they were not subject to newspaper headlines before as it makes for an interesting post-Brexit story? What are the statistics of racism post and pre-Brexit? Did the racists that are accused or shown even vote to Leave? Do they know how to vote?/ Lots of questions. Please link me to an article where there is a direct link - causation - I need to use it for a class. I'm looking too and will share these awful stories.

    But, facts - that's what we need rather than assumptions and guesses and stories that highlight issues now that existed even then.

    Here's a Guardian report that gives some figures: Police log fivefold rise in race-hate complaints since Brexit result
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #315 - June 30, 2016, 10:36 PM

    Yes, one worries about religious fundamentalism.

    But now we have retro nationalism mutating into fascism, and on the other side a retro Marxist and his rent-a-mob.

    and not a cross or crescent in sight (except as the victims of xenophobic and racist attacks)
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #316 - July 02, 2016, 09:51 AM

    Quote
    But now we have retro nationalism mutating into fascism, and on the other side a retro Marxist and his rent-a-mob.


    This is overstating a bit. In fact a lot.

    To say that the 'spike' in reported hate crimes is evidentiary of fascism or the desire to control immigration levels (not a single leading leave campaigner argued for 0 immigration), connect and trade with the wider world and champion a return to democracy as fascistic in any way is ridiculous. 

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #317 - July 02, 2016, 07:14 PM

    I voted remain for economic reasons, disappointed at the result but trying to practice acceptance.

    If it galvanises the younger millennial generation to become more engaged  (too late?) then that is a good outcome.

    To be fair I like many only knew the tip of the iceberg in terms of the facts for and against so I mainly went with my gut (I like having a job, hate bigots and i think being a member made us more likely to work together on climate change which is good).

    I'm trying to avoid the news nowadays, may consider joining the Green Party...
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #318 - July 02, 2016, 07:48 PM

    I actually don't see many good reason for the Brexit. I know it was more kind of a protest election against the EU, which I can totally understand. However, just leaving the EU is not a good idea.

    In the end what were the reasons for leaving the EU?
    Reason: don't pay money to the EU
    Counterargument: you still have to pay if you want to be a member of the EEA.

    Reason: more control immigration
    Counterargument: you can not prevent free movement if you want to be a member of the EEA

    Reason: don't have to follow the regulations and rules of the EU.
    Counterargument: you still have to follow them just with the huge disadvantage that you can no longer contribute on them.

    Reason: more security against terrorist
    Counterargument: One of the aims of the EU is to increase coordination and exchange between security forces (e.g. Europol). This will get more complicated and bureaucratic if a country is not member of the EU.
     
    Further problems with leaving the EU:
    - London loses its position as finance centre of Europe, if it's no longer member of the EU. Already some finance institutes are considering to move to Frankfurt. Holland wants to create the new EU finance center in Paris.
    - No more Erasmus. Erasmus is really a great program to easily study an exchange semester in any EU country. I used Erasmus to study one semester in Denmark and it was awesome!
    - Britain has to negotiate trade agreements with 70 countries, which was done by the EU before. And really doubt that the deals will be better without the EU.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #319 - July 03, 2016, 09:39 AM

    Another report on racism since the referendum: Mama, will you be deported?’: Brexit vote triggers eruption of racism
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #320 - July 03, 2016, 12:09 PM

    I actually don't see many good reason for the Brexit. I know it was more kind of a protest election against the EU, which I can totally understand. However, just leaving the EU is not a good idea.

    In the end what were the reasons for leaving the EU?
    Reason: don't pay money to the EU
    Counterargument: you still have to pay if you want to be a member of the EEA.

    Reason: more control immigration
    Counterargument: you can not prevent free movement if you want to be a member of the EEA

    Reason: don't have to follow the regulations and rules of the EU.
    Counterargument: you still have to follow them just with the huge disadvantage that you can no longer contribute on them.

    Reason: more security against terrorist
    Counterargument: One of the aims of the EU is to increase coordination and exchange between security forces (e.g. Europol). This will get more complicated and bureaucratic if a country is not member of the EU.
     
    Further problems with leaving the EU:
    - London loses its position as finance centre of Europe, if it's no longer member of the EU. Already some finance institutes are considering to move to Frankfurt. Holland wants to create the new EU finance center in Paris.
    - No more Erasmus. Erasmus is really a great program to easily study an exchange semester in any EU country. I used Erasmus to study one semester in Denmark and it was awesome!
    - Britain has to negotiate trade agreements with 70 countries, which was done by the EU before. And really doubt that the deals will be better without the EU.


    You're arguments have been countered previously, easily so in fact.

    It's like saying, you don't subscribe to Lootcrate but you still have to pay for Pop figures. Well, yeah....At least you have the option to negotiate and get what you want without garbage you don't.

    We trade with many countries without having freedom of movement impose upon us.

    Our direct/democratic contribution to the EU was minimal. Though, we will have to wait to see ho this plays out.

    Terrorism. fear mongering.

    Good. Erasmus I'm sure was great. Unless, other European countries spit their dummies out, this may still continue.

    Most of this is conjecture. It has some merit...but wait before declaring Britain a pariah and a third world country. We still have the masses of racists to contend with in this country.



    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #321 - July 03, 2016, 07:54 PM

    Question: Was there a set percentage of leave votes required for the referendum to pass? Like 60 or 65%?
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #322 - July 03, 2016, 10:15 PM

    No, they just had to get 50%.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #323 - July 04, 2016, 08:28 AM

    "That is true, the far right in the UK and Europe is at it strongest than it has ever been. "


       EVER ?!!!

     I think my grandparents might have had something to say about that statement


  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #324 - July 04, 2016, 10:13 AM

    It is a common assumption that this is the case and I would not be surprised but how would one measure this? How to gather the evidence to verify such a claim. Of course, the news coming indicates that there are racist incidents following the EU referendum. BUT are they being reported now when they were not subject to newspaper headlines before as it makes for an interesting post-Brexit story? What are the statistics of racism post and pre-Brexit? Did the racists that are accused or shown even vote to Leave? Do they know how to vote?/ Lots of questions. Please link me to an article where there is a direct link - causation - I need to use it for a class. I'm looking too and will share these awful stories.

    But, facts - that's what we need rather than assumptions and guesses and stories that highlight issues now that existed even then.


    I think there are a lot of factors in the increase of hate crimes, or reporting of them, but I do believe that there is an increase IMHO.

    It is usually the case that particular media rhetoric and public discussion can reignite particular types of anger.  Post 9/11, a lot of anger and hate, I was chased down the road with my 4 year old son in tow, whilst pregnant with my next child, because any Muslim would do to punish for what had happened.

    Same when the EDL were all over the news, and anger towards Muslims was a regular thing being discussed, again I was threatened by racist, who wanted to bottle me in my face, just for being brown.

    And now, now I would say the same thing is happening.  My son is constantly being called a terrorist at school.  He's actually having quite a tough time at the moment because of the constant insults even though he isn't a Muslim either.

    This was particularly worse for him last week, where even the school finally witnessed it happening, in which one child at his school said 'soon you'll be gone, and your family too'. 

    I think perhaps it's similar to mob mentality, you can get a crowd riled up in an unreasonable way.  You have constant news showing us what Trump is saying, quite racist tones to some of the Leave posters, which never showed you white EU immigrants coming over here in swarms.

    So yea, I mean it just seems to me that realistically it adds up, that the increase in media stories focusing on immigrants and Muslims, would have a knock on effect in generating more hate, or at least making overt hate that was there already.

    But I also think another factor that needs to be considered, is that for many of us, especially those of us who believe that a lot of leave voters wanted to leave due to racism (and honestly Jedi, I am still not seeing many comments from people who have other reasons, like you did, the large majority are quite vitriolic in their hate for non-whites and non-brits), are also now hyper aware of it.  We feel nervous, on edge, afraid of what is coming next.  It's as if we were told we weren't welcome.

    Then you do have to consider that the reporting of the rise in hate crime, made people aware of who to contact to report hate crime, which in turn would increase reporting in it.

    I think it would be difficult to truly narrow down any one causative factor on this one, since they all tie into each other. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #325 - July 04, 2016, 01:47 PM

    "That is true, the far right in the UK and Europe is at it strongest than it has ever been. "


       EVER ?!!!

     I think my grandparents might have had something to say about that statement




    Ok, maybe not ever. But, since the WW2, there hasn't really been as much support for the Far Right as there is now in the UK.

    The UK National Front, in the 70's/80's was certainly a lot more terrifying than the current bunch of Far Right groups, but in term of numbers, there wasn't as much support which lead to it never really making any gains in mainstream politics like UKIP/BNP have done.

    However, saying that, UKIP is not your typical Far Right group. It certainly uses the Far Right populist rhetoric on occasion, but, in terms of the variety of supporters it has, it probably shouldn't be put in the same category as National Front/BNP. Well at least not yet.

    If groups like Britain First start gaining more support, actually support not Likes on Facebook, then the country will be in a lot of trouble. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

    I think it was the Conservatives under Thatcher who curtailed the Far Right by using Right Wing populist rhetoric the eat up its supporters, whether they can do that again without drifting even further to the Right remains to be seen. The use of Right Wing populism by the current batch of Tories has only emboldened the Far Right so far, so I wouldn't be too optimistic about the chances of the next PM who is certainly going to be worse than Cameron.

  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #326 - July 04, 2016, 05:32 PM

    You're arguments have been countered previously, easily so in fact.

    It's like saying, you don't subscribe to Lootcrate but you still have to pay for Pop figures. Well, yeah....At least you have the option to negotiate and get what you want without garbage you don't.

    We trade with many countries without having freedom of movement impose upon us.



    Well, that's what they told you. Britain will just cherry-pick the Pop figures they want from the EU without a subscription. But Merkel and the other European leaders made it pretty clear: no-cherry-picking, no prenegotiations. In the end you will pay for the Pop figures the EU is ready to give you and that won't be the best. And France and Germany are already looking at your favourite Pop figures to attract them away from you:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/02/paris-opens-doors-to-city-of-london-businesses-looking-to-reloca/

    Yes you trade with many countries, but the EU is the most your most important partner and your direct neighbour. Inside the EU Britain had a much better negotiating power than without the EU.
  • Re: Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #327 - July 04, 2016, 07:55 PM

    No, they just had to get 50%.


    Just wondering if it was similar to the laws up here.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #328 - July 05, 2016, 08:27 AM

    Hashtag for EU citizens living in Britain: #IamNotABargainingChip
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #329 - July 05, 2016, 12:12 PM

    Well if nothing else, as an American, color my anti-English sentiment as rising.

    Limeys are free to do the same if we end up electing Trump.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
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