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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Do you think Britain should leave the EU?  (Voting closed: March 18, 2016, 08:18 PM)
  • Yes - 9 (42.9%)
  • No - 12 (57.1%)
  • Undecided - 0 (0%)
  • Total Voters: 21

 Topic: Brexit - yes or no?

 (Read 39628 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 5 6 78 9 ... 13 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #180 - June 25, 2016, 07:03 PM

    Actually, discussions on funding allocation would still have to take place as I'm sure any country that is a member of the EU that seeks to 'expand' it's territory or have a unification will need to negotiate and seek some sort of approval from the EU. If you know differently then cite the source or direct me to it...


    The EU will facilitate Irish reunification the same way they did with German reunification, only being much smaller it will be a lot less time consuming and much cheaper.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #181 - June 25, 2016, 07:05 PM

    The referendum was over due as both the Maastricht Treaty and Lisbon Treaty(ies) changed the relationship with the EU from a largely economic one which we voted into in 1975 to a political one in recent years.


    well I am not really really  sure about that dear Jedi.,  the tone of the Briexit leaders  seems to be Immigration and Islam-centric

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #182 - June 25, 2016, 07:07 PM

    I like you just fine but I don't like your reading comprehension much.  His name is Martin McGuiness and he called for a referendum on a united Ireland, not an independent Northern Ireland.  The day a Sinn Féin member calls for an independent Northern Ireland will be the day Vladimir Putin skips around Moscow shouting I'm gay and I'm proud.  


    I think I'd let you cool down. you seem to be getting a little warm under the collar. Anyway, read that article. Reunification with Ireland is as good as 'independence' anyway from Britain - semantics. Maybe Putin is secretly gay and showboating on a horse right now.

    Who was that Alec Guinness...oh yes Obi Wan Kenobi. I have Star Wars in brain!

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #183 - June 25, 2016, 07:08 PM

    well I am not really really  sure about that dear Jedi.,  the tone of the Briexit leaders  seems to be Immigration and Islam-centric


    Of course....all leavers is RACIST and to vote leave is to be ISLAMO-PHOBIC.

    It's a scientific fact,

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #184 - June 25, 2016, 07:10 PM

    No Jedi, just no.  A united Ireland is a very different thing to an independent Northern Ireland.   And in any discussion of EU membership the distinction between the two makes a lot of difference - its why your first post didn't make any sense.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #185 - June 25, 2016, 07:11 PM

    Of course....all leavers is RACIST and to vote leave is to be ISLAMO-PHOBIC.

    It's a scientific fact,


    No..no..noooooooooooo., I didn't say that Jedi

    I was talking about the tone of BriExit Leaders and its supporters from other part of the world..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #186 - June 25, 2016, 07:27 PM

    No Jedi, just no.  A united Ireland is a very different thing to an independent Northern Ireland.   And in any discussion of EU membership the distinction between the two makes a lot of difference - its why your first post didn't make any sense.


    My first post had nothing to do with Northern Ireland.

    I know that Cheetah as you've made palpably clear. There was no suggestion that Northern Ireland would be an independent country distinct from the Republic of Ireland rather that it the Brexit vote gave impetus for Sinn Feinn from breaking away from the UK as the Northern Irish voted to Remain. That border poll would be every interesting.


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #187 - June 25, 2016, 07:27 PM

    No..no..noooooooooooo., I didn't say that Jedi

    I was talking about the tone of BriExit Leaders and its supporters from other part of the world..


    Perhaps watching different debates.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #188 - June 25, 2016, 07:31 PM

    My first post had nothing to do with Northern Ireland.
    I know that Cheetah as you've made palpably clear. There was no suggestion that Northern Ireland would be an independent country distinct from the Republic of Ireland rather that it the Brexit vote gave impetus for Sinn Feinn from breaking away from the UK as the Northern Irish voted to Remain. That border poll would be every interesting.


    Your first post did actually put NI in the same camp as Scotland and talk about it as if it was going independent.  However, you seem to have grasped the reality that Scottish independence and an Irish border poll are two very different things, so I won't argue the point any more.

    (Still amused, btw, at the thoughts of Martin McGuinness in Star Wars.   wacko )

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #189 - June 25, 2016, 07:31 PM

    The only ones we elect are the MEPs are there power is just to vote and negotiate. That is all. The power to propose or repeal is with the un-elected commissioners.

    This is not AT ALL like the UK Parliament. Every 5 years we vote - we know who the MPs. There are no back flips or gymnastics that need to be performed. Legislation that is proposed is based of the mandate the existing government has.

    Your MP has a constituency link with you and has an obligation to hold surgeries as well as being held to account by the local council, the national government and ultimately an ombudsman.  It is also in the interests of the MP to appeal to the people. There's no getting voted in a region and then running off to Brussels for four years to hide and be unaccountable. The checks and balances on MPs are far greater and you can change your MP after 5 years.

    The figure you cite is deflated, in recent years as much as 50% if not more has been directives by the EU. There have been 72 instances (at least) in which EU directives were not in Britain's interest and voted against but we had to accept them anyway. On some occasions British members of the Council of Europe voted against UKs self-interests.

    The EU is incredibly bureaucratic - it takes ages to make decisions as it's negotiation after negotiation and red tape after red tape. The 2010 coalition was loathed for not delviering on party policies as too many compromises had to be made - now imagine that on the scale of a super-state hich is what the EU fancies itself as.


    Sort of like the way the Scots voted against a referendum which was against their interests but could still be forced to leave the EU against their will, no?

    It would be closer to 50% if you counted every directive and regulation passed by the EU but the fact remains that many of them don't even affect the UK. And then one must take into account that the smaller EU-influenced legislation will not have the same effect as the larger ones like the Welfare Reform and Work Bill.

    With Cameron's resignation we are going to end up with an unelected Prime Minister, who will have another 3 and a half years to run the country before the next election. So it really does not appear that everything is sweet and democratic without the EU.

    Should the EU be more democratic? Yes. Should MEPs be given more power in decision-making? Of course. But many, including myself have benefited as a result of being EU citizens. The response should have been a push for changes within the institution, not a referendum to leave when so many people knew so little about the EU to begin with.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #190 - June 25, 2016, 07:35 PM

    Gets popcorn this has really heated up!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #191 - June 25, 2016, 07:35 PM

    No Jedi, just no.  A united Ireland is a very different thing to an independent Northern Ireland.   And in any discussion of EU membership the distinction between the two makes a lot of difference - its why your first post didn't make any sense.


    Ireland is on the top of my list of countries to relocate to at the moment. One of my best friends lives in Dublin and I have been to visit her quite a few times. It is a very nice country.

    With the way things are going now, I would not blame the Northern Irish public in the slightest if they choose a united Ireland over the United Kingdom.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #192 - June 25, 2016, 07:42 PM

    Of course....all leavers is RACIST and to vote leave is to be ISLAMO-PHOBIC.

    It's a scientific fact,


    Not all of them, of course. I have Socialist, anti-racist friends who voted Leave because they thing that the EU is an obstacle to a working class revolution, for an instance.

    Nevertheless, the right-wing really did dominate the Brexit campaign and its leaders such as Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Michael Gove used quite a few xenophobic undertones. I do wonder how successful the campaign would have been if it was led by the Left instead.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #193 - June 25, 2016, 07:45 PM

    I think NI's position might become untenable in the UK if there is to be a hard border between the Republic and the North and trade tariffs.  They export about 40% of their produce to us so their private sector is going to be banjaxed, and I don't think the UK exchequer is going to be in a position to pick up the slack and subsidise them like they used to.  

    AGirlwithDoubts - I hope you do come to Ireland if you decide to relocate.  Our economy is growing at the moment so plenty of jobs going, especially in Dublin plus we're under populated, so we could do with some immigrants  Smiley, not to mention enticing home the Irish who left after the banking crash.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #194 - June 25, 2016, 07:54 PM


    Should the EU be more democratic? Yes. Should MEPs be given more power in decision-making? Of course. But many, including myself have benefited as a result of being EU citizens. The response should have been a push for changes within the institution, not a referendum to leave when so many people knew so little about the EU to begin with.



    Of course that's what we would've liked - a return to national sovereignty whilst still maintaining close ties with EU as a member not a distant relative that only calls round on the holidays. But as there going to be reform. Pres. Juncker probably put the nail in the coffin. Reform in the EU is very, very unlikely as power has been shifting towards the EU and never away from it at all. Trust me, there have been very powerful Eurosceptic groups from teh Far Marie LaPen to our socialist euro-sceptic Jeremy Corbyn arguing for reform but conceding that the EU is a buffer state of its own and allegedly holds vulnerable countries like Greece to ransom.

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-corbyn-is-making-a-big-speech-saying-we-should-remain-in-the-eu-heres-all-the-times-he-said-the-eu-was-bad-2016-4

    If I believed it could be reformed an made legitimate, transparent, open to scrutiny and all the legislature/executive held accountable then I would have voted remain.

     



    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/682361/EU-referendum-Brussels-Jean-Claude-Juncker-David-Cameron-no-more-reform-Remain

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #195 - June 25, 2016, 08:09 PM

    It does potentially make a very big difference though for the three million or so citizens of other EU countries living in Britain (I'm leaving out the Irish here as I'm assuming they'll be protected by agreements that pre-date the EU). Also for the million plus Brits living elsewhere in the EU.


    Yeah that could be a serious problem. I guess I can't get an EASA licence in UK then. Yikes

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #196 - June 25, 2016, 08:10 PM

    well you guys should go for elections again


    Demonstrators against Brexit  results  

    Over one million sign UK petition for second EU vote

    I don't care what you guys do but give me Visa...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #197 - June 25, 2016, 09:57 PM

    I think NI's position might become untenable in the UK if there is to be a hard border between the Republic and the North and trade tariffs.  They export about 40% of their produce to us so their private sector is going to be banjaxed, and I don't think the UK exchequer is going to be in a position to pick up the slack and subsidise them like they used to.  

    AGirlwithDoubts - I hope you do come to Ireland if you decide to relocate.  Our economy is growing at the moment so plenty of jobs going, especially in Dublin plus we're under populated, so we could do with some immigrants  Smiley, not to mention enticing home the Irish who left after the banking crash.


    Why, thanks Smiley. My experiences with Irish folk have been more positive than they have been with the English so far. Now after this referendum I just feel down in the dumps and unwanted. It wasn't even the outcome that was the worst part (though that still devastated me), rather it was how the campaign opened my eyes to the way intolerance and bigotry are on the rise over here.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #198 - June 26, 2016, 12:11 AM

    There's an argument doing the rounds on FB saying that David Cameron detonated a suicide vest of sorts by abdicating responsibility for triggering Article 50 to his successor. And on the face of it, it seems logical enough: if any Brexit-minded successor fails to trigger Article 50, they're done for; if the contenders (Gove, Johnson) don't run, they're willingly becoming spent forces; if they do trigger Article 50, the clusterfuck we've seen predicted with the loss of Northern Ireland and Scotland will become a reality on their watch, as will a massive recession and the penalties accruing from various broken trade agreements.

    Neither Gove nor Johnson, it is said, so far have felt compelled to suggest that Article 50 should be triggered immediately, and both are notably quiet right now; the suggestion is that triggering Article 50 is such an irreversible step, that would cause such widespread destruction to the UK as we know it, that neither of them would want to have it happen on their watch. While the idea of having Brexit's leaders make the admission that they can't follow through on what they campaigned for is bound to raise a smile, this scenario strikes me as somewhat incomplete.

    For one thing, I'm predicting* an increased visibility of the far right as a grassroots political force in the immediate future. They are emboldened now in a way that hasn't been seen in a very long time, if the breaking reports of the carnival of racist arseholes we've all seen in the past 24 hours are even half true. UKIP may have acted as a lightning rod of sorts for English nationalist types in the past few years, but even if the kippers don't turn into marginally more electable English Democrats, their work - as far as enabling a critical mass of the English far right is concerned - is more or less done. This brings me to the other question; whether there will be people so committed to Brexit ideologically that, despite the shitstorm so far, they decide to push on anyway. I'm not convinced that the prospective leadership of the Tory party is able to weigh posterity against pragmatism and *not* decide to go for broke; this, as far as I'm concerned, will be the one remaining hurdle that, once crossed, will make UKIP (or its successors, assuming that they don't merge back into the Tory party) a party political force no longer confined to the (acceptable) fringes of British politics (although they will have to lose Farage sooner rather than later if this happens).

    This is my nightmare scenario: ten years after a Brexit, Westminister (now the Parliament of England and Wales) is constituted by a Tory party forming the centre-left, UKIP forming the centre-right, with actual fascists on the fringes of both. In the intervening period, Labour. so riven with schism between those who thought it would be more relevant if it turned into UKIP-lite and those desperately trying to cling to left-wing principle, saw UKIP eat its lunch, so to speak, years before. Right now, I'm not feeling terribly optimistic that such a scenario is impossible.

    * I'm sincerely hoping to be very, very wrong about everything after the asterisk.
  • Re: Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #199 - June 26, 2016, 12:22 AM

    If you mean will the Troubles come back, the answer is no.  The Troubles were caused by specific circumstances that existed in the 1960s and 70s and those things don't exist now.  The "Irish Question " has entered fully into the political sphere, same as the Scottish Question and nationalists in both countries will react the same to this - by demanding referendums.

    There are of course the die hards on both sides who can't accept that its not 1969 anymore, but they number about six men and a dog on each side and are riddled with special branch informers.  They'll cause the odd outrage here and there but nothing that will raise NI's crime statistics much, and they're too politically thick to be effected by Brexit either way anyway.

    Reason I asked is that some Irish journos were saying stuff like this: The English have placed a bomb under the Irish peace process.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #200 - June 26, 2016, 12:25 AM

    * I'm sincerely hoping to be very, very wrong about everything after the asterisk.

    Oh it gets better. The *exiting stuff spreads across Europe, and your nightmare vision of England and Wales is repeated across the entire continent. In much the same way that something fairly trivial precipitated WW1 due to a concatenation of stupidity.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #201 - June 26, 2016, 12:28 AM

    I didn't want to raise that prospect, but I'm not generally optimistic about that either. Poland and Hungary already have far right governments, and Austria very nearly elected such a President; France and Holland are countries to watch right now.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #202 - June 26, 2016, 12:45 AM

    Reason I asked is that some Irish journos were saying stuff like this: The English have placed a bomb under the Irish peace process.


    Ignore Fintan O'Toole, he's a dick.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #203 - June 26, 2016, 05:23 AM

    I love the doomsday scenarios. Keep them coming please....

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #204 - June 26, 2016, 06:03 AM

    I didn't want to raise that prospect, but I'm not generally optimistic about that either. Poland and Hungary already have far right governments, and Austria very nearly elected such a President; France and Holland are countries to watch right now.


    The ruling parties in Hungary and Poland are conservatives, not far right.  

    But you're right to fear that scenario, Europe's right is moving to the far right and left to the right and even to the far right. Only the politicians are lagging behind. And you are not solving the problem by calling people racists or xenophobes. They are not going anywhere unless tougher immigration policies are  implemented.  For both types from inside and outside EU. People should get what they want, even if it is wrong. Only this could stop this process.

    Although once Pandora box was opened, I'm afraid it will be to late anyway.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #205 - June 26, 2016, 08:14 AM

    It's funny what you worry about often does not happen, but then some other sh*t comes at you from left field (or in this case right) out of the blue.

    When I was young it was the fear of Communism taking over (it collapsed), the unbridgeable gap between first and third worlds (nobody told the Chinese), out of control population growth (global average now down to 2 children per woman) , mass starvation (food surplus now because of green revolution and GM crops), and of course nuclear war (despite North Korea, the risk is minimal).

    Now the main concerns have been climate change and the rise of fundamentalist religion. They are still issues, but solar power costs have been falling so fast they will soon out compete fossil fuels, even at current low prices, and the current hero of Londoners is a moderate Muslim.

    Then Brexit. It is not just a disaster for the UK economically and politically, it emboldens the far right in France, Denmark, and the Netherlands, all of which face calls for referenda on EU membership. Worse still, it emboldens Trump supporters in the USA. Welcome to global fascism mark 2. It seems that bad ideas never die.

  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #206 - June 26, 2016, 10:25 AM

    NO fascism mark 2. In any case not for Europe or US. True for KSA, Iran, Gaza.

    Neither today's european far right is fascism nor the far left is the communism as it once was and neither they will be. There are/were far right and far left parties associated or taking part in the governments of Denmark and Greece.

    Still the far right rise and the damage it can make have been both underestimated by politicians across Europe. What happened last Thursday should be a big wake up call for both EU and UK.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #207 - June 26, 2016, 10:42 AM

    Austria very narrowly escaped neo-Fascism so yes, I would not rule out the possibility.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #208 - June 26, 2016, 10:53 AM

    I love the doomsday scenarios. Keep them coming please....


    If you really are as bloody-mindedly complacent as you make out, good for you.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #209 - June 26, 2016, 11:13 AM

    It wouldn't surprise me if some fudge is reached on the lines of joining the EEA like Norway.  Brexiters will be massively disappointed of course because they will still have freedom of movement.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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