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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Do you think Britain should leave the EU?  (Voting closed: March 18, 2016, 08:18 PM)
  • Yes - 9 (42.9%)
  • No - 12 (57.1%)
  • Undecided - 0 (0%)
  • Total Voters: 21

 Topic: Brexit - yes or no?

 (Read 39647 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 3 4 56 7 ... 13 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #120 - June 24, 2016, 09:54 PM
    I just skimmed this thread, and it sounds like y'all got Trumped. Same sentiments. Just disgusting. I am so sorry y'all have to deal with idiocy over there. I had hoped it was confined to Trump supporters.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #121 - June 24, 2016, 10:08 PM
    I believe we (humans) put far to much value in the average person's knowledge and opinions thus set ourselves up for disappointment. This is one of those times that we hope people vote based on reason and knowledge of the situation rather than from a basis of a group that causes "trouble" within a greater issue that they ignore.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #122 - June 24, 2016, 10:26 PM
    I wonder who will take over from Cameron as PM?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #123 - June 24, 2016, 10:37 PM
    Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on June 24, 2016, 07:40 PM
    I'm absolutely devastated with the result today. Just yesterday I was motivated and optimistic for my future, today I'm desperate to leave the country as soon as possible, and I'm angry. I'm angry at a generation that was given so many opportunities and privileges, yet chose the rob mine of much of what we had left. I'm angry at the young people who didn't bother to vote because they didn't care enough to prevent the country from falling into ruin. As long as they can still go to a club on a Friday night and get absolutely pissed, nothing else matters.


    I'm agree with you.

    Too bad for England, if UK believes that he has the luxury to dispense of the European Union and the country will be better off without, that's his problem, good luck...

    And then vote for a so-called impact on the NHS and immigration is pretty naive, France and Germany have a much better welfare system than England, nevertheless these countries receive more refugees.

    Last I heard, it is our taxes which finance our health care system and social welfare, if there is a problem, that's not our poor immigrants that should be blamed, but rather the current situation, the lack of dynamism and growth as well as the hypocrisy of our policies who have failed to respond and solve the real challenges.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #124 - June 24, 2016, 11:09 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 24, 2016, 10:26 PM
    I wonder who will take over from Cameron as PM?


    I'd rather Gove than Boris. Boris is too self absorbed and opportunistic and no ethical standards - just whatever will win is his ethics imho.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #125 - June 24, 2016, 11:31 PM
    Choosing between Gove and Johnson strikes me as akin to choosing which of one's own bollocks one would rather have shot off.

    Not that May's going to be an improvement on either.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #126 - June 24, 2016, 11:34 PM
    Quote from: Ergo on June 24, 2016, 10:37 PM
    I'm agree with you.

    Too bad for England, if UK believes that he has the luxury to dispense of the European Union and the country will be better off without, that's his problem, good luck...

    And then vote for a so-called impact on the NHS and immigration is pretty naive, France and Germany have a much better welfare system than England, nevertheless these countries receive more refugees.

    Last I heard, it is our taxes which finance our health care system and social welfare, if there is a problem, that's not our poor immigrants that should be blamed, but rather the current situation, the lack of dynamism and growth as well as the hypocrisy of our policies who have failed to respond and solve the real challenges.


    Much of it was easily manipulated people believing lies. "Make Britain Great again", what does that even mean? Not at all long before the EU this country was an empire. If they think that they could possibly go back to those good old days then they're delusional.

    The cuts to the NHS had absolutely nothing to do with the EU and there are more immigrants worldwide leaving from the UK than most countries, should they all be sent back here?

    You're absolutely right; what on Earth were they thinking? I am shocked and disgusted that the public put our future in the hands of the likes of Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, and for what? To show that they can "make their voices heard" with a lousy protest vote? It's a gamble that we won't come out from Scot-free.

    Already Scotland is in talks for a second Independence referendum, there are calls for Northern Ireland to follow suit and the pound has fallen through the floor. My dad lost hundreds of pounds on the morning of the referendum while travelling because he had to exchange currency.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #127 - June 25, 2016, 12:04 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 24, 2016, 11:22 AM
    Now its time to start planning for a border poll in Northern Ireland and a second indy ref in Scotland.  Both those places voted to stay in the EU, no reason why they should be dragged out by England and Wales.

    So any ideas about what's likely to happen in Ireland now? Most importantly, is there any likelihood of instability*?

    *Euphemism alert.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #128 - June 25, 2016, 12:08 AM
    Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on June 24, 2016, 11:34 PM
    Already Scotland is in talks for a second Independence referendum, there are calls for Northern Ireland to follow suit and the pound has fallen through the floor. My dad lost hundreds of pounds on the morning of the referendum while travelling because he had to exchange currency.

    The pound is likely to lose its special status in a big way, because the City of London has just lost the ability to sell financial services to the rest of Europe without restrictions. IOW, that segment of the UK economy (and it's a big one) is now effectively non-existent. That money is highly likely to move to Europe instead. So, AFAIK can tell from what the pundits are saying, the likely economic effect can be visualised as "let's nuke the City and see what happens".
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #129 - June 25, 2016, 12:31 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 25, 2016, 12:04 AM
    So any ideas about what's likely to happen in Ireland now? Most importantly, is there any likelihood of instability*?

    *Euphemism alert.


    If you mean will the Troubles come back, the answer is no.  The Troubles were caused by specific circumstances that existed in the 1960s and 70s and those things don't exist now.  The "Irish Question " has entered fully into the political sphere, same as the Scottish Question and nationalists in both countries will react the same to this - by demanding referendums.

    There are of course the die hards on both sides who can't accept that its not 1969 anymore, but they number about six men and a dog on each side and are riddled with special branch informers.  They'll cause the odd outrage here and there but nothing that will raise NI's crime statistics much, and they're too politically thick to be effected by Brexit either way anyway.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #130 - June 25, 2016, 06:18 AM
    Wow! I come back home and the UK has voted to leave the EU.

    The contempt for the democratic process I hear from many of my friends and family is outrageous. The remain side are sounding like whingeing cry-babies declaring that the world is about to end. Worst of all that the only reason the most voted leave was due to immigration and are thus racist. Whilst immigration was an issue there were many that made it an issue of principle, focused on the democratic deficit within the institution of of the EU, the soft economic sanctions which has blighted much of Welsh farming as well as instability within Europe itself, the cost of membership coupled with the 'gravy train' to Brussels. That doesn't even touch upon the various EU regulations and directives that are so bizarre and pointless they erode the EU's legitimacy further.

    The campaign wasn't so much defined by a desire to close itself from Europe but to open itself to the rest of the world. Now, the experts are predicting apocalyptic future for Britain thus learning nothing from the Project Fear portion of the remain campaign. 
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #131 - June 25, 2016, 07:18 AM
    Quote
    The contempt for the democratic process I hear from many of my friends and family is outrageous. The remain side are sounding like whingeing cry-babies declaring that the world is about to end.

    Shocking, isn't it?

    Quote
    Worst of all that [the remain side think] the only reason the most voted leave was due to immigration and are thus racist.

     
    I've added the bit in brackets for clarity as I think this follows on from the previous sentence. If I got it right, then yes I feel quite offended but not taking it personally. I really thought we were made of stronger stuff.

    Quote
    Whilst immigration was an issue there were many that made it an issue of principle, focused on the democratic deficit within the institution of of the EU, the soft economic sanctions which has blighted much of Welsh farming as well as instability within Europe itself, the cost of membership coupled with the 'gravy train' to Brussels. That doesn't even touch upon the various EU regulations and directives that are so bizarre and pointless they erode the EU's legitimacy further.

    THIS is why the majority of the majority voted to leave. NOT because of racism. And as an aside, "we want our Britain back" isn't only about immigration, it's about regaining control of our country. Yes, part of that is border control (we are a small island, with rapidly expanding cities, after all), but it's also about laws, regulations, and all the ridiculous hoops to jump through that stifle our SMEs (small to medium enterprises). Clever rhetoric though, means that both groups are included in the same message. And it worked.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #132 - June 25, 2016, 07:28 AM
    Quote from: jrg on June 25, 2016, 07:18 AM
    Shocking, isn't it?
     
    I've added the bit in brackets for clarity as I think this follows on from the previous sentence. If I got it right, then yes I feel quite offended but not taking it personally. I really thought we were made of stronger stuff.
    THIS is why the majority of the majority voted to leave. NOT because of racism. And as an aside, "we want our Britain back" isn't only about immigration, it's about regaining control of our country. Yes, part of that is border control (we are a small island, with rapidly expanding cities, after all), but it's also about laws, regulations, and all the ridiculous hoops to jump through that stifle our SMEs (small to medium enterprises). Clever rhetoric though, means that both groups are included in the same message. And it worked.


    And you know this how?

    Do you personally know the majority of the majority?

    Honestly, as much as Jedi may have educated reasons for understanding the leave camp, you are taking a big fucking leap of faith to assume the majority of the majority carry enough of an education/understanding, that there reasons were motivated by anything less than the racism stirred up by the leave campaign. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #133 - June 25, 2016, 07:33 AM
    I'm aware that people voted Leave for a variety of reasons but that does not change the fact that a significant portion of the campaign used immigration and played flirted with xenophobia to target masses. We are right to be concerned with the way this country is moving further and further to the Right and the growing hateful rhetoric over the past decade which makes some of us lose hope of a future here.

    The EU was by no means perfect but when one weighs out the benefits and the detriments of EU membership, it was certainly a good thing. It is no more "undemocratic" than our own parliament (it is less so, in fact) and there were also many regulations and directives in place that changed the country for the better. For an example, the UK vehemently opposed the prospect of paid holidays but had to implement it nevertheless due to an EU directive.

    The membership fee is not what it was bigged up to be when you count what the UK treasury and private sector receives from the EU weekly. It actually amounts to less than half of what it is said to be.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #134 - June 25, 2016, 07:51 AM
    A real world example of how EU's one size fits all approach, doesn't work for the UK: I work in the transport industry. I took my driving test about 6 months after the law changed on the biggest vehicles you can drive on a standard car license. Had I taken my test before the law changed, I could drive up to 7.5 ton wagons. Now, I can only drive up to 3.5 ton.

    As a consequence of this law change, we now have a severe shortage of small lorry drivers. This poses two problems:
       1. goods have to go on different vehicles. This often will be 2 or 3 vans instead of something bigger, because the destinations are inaccessible by vehicles over 7.5T (weak bridges, narrow roads, residential areas). It doesn't take a genius to work out that sending 1 truck's goods on a handful of smaller vehicles costs more (adding to consumer prices), and adds yet more diesel fumes to our air.
       2. We also have a severe shortage of HGV drivers, because the natural path was to work for a haulage company, drive a 7.5 tonner, then progress to Class 2 and Class 1 (rigid sticks and artics). And then the driver can go on to other specialist areas like moffet (the forklift you see on the back of a lorry), hiab (lorry with a built in crane), skelly (container trailers) etc etc. But there's little motivation now, because it's expensive to train, and it's a big step from a Sprinter or Transit van to an 18T truck.

    Another real world reason to leave the EU is that I'm convinced it wouldn't have been long (matter of years) before the tachograph laws are applied to 3.5T (or lighter) vans, like I drive. That would have serious ramifications on the UK transport industry. You know all those plain white Sprinters you see hurtling up and down the motorways? The nuisance white van man who's always in such a hurry and pushes out and pushes in and "shouldn't be allowed in the road"? Well just remember, next time something you order is a few hours late for collection, or something is delivered in a plain white van by some obscure company you've never heard of, when you thought TNT were doing the job, it could be because a cage or pallet was put on the wrong trailer. That cage/pallet containing your item, is now headed to a delivery hub 200 miles away, instead of 25 miles away. How is this mistake fixed? Can't turn that artic around and take that cage off because routes are meticulously timed to fit around tachograph laws, rest breaks, daily/weekly driving hours etc. So instead, a white van is sent in to get it to where it's supposed to be, fast. If the tachograph laws are applied to vans, quite simply, more vans would be needed, more drovers needed, more space at motorway services and more laybys needed because it wouldn't only be trucks vying for that precious spot so you can have your legally required break. All of this of course, would have lead to further consumer price increases.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #135 - June 25, 2016, 07:54 AM
    Quote
    The EU was by no means perfect but when one weighs out the benefits and the detriments of EU membership, it was certainly a good thing. It is no more "undemocratic" than our own parliament (it is less so, in fact) and there were also many regulations and directives in place that changed the country for the better. For an example, the UK vehemently opposed the prospect of paid holidays but had to implement it nevertheless due to an EU directive.


    What wow Where are you getting your sources from?

    The EU is WAY less democratic than  the UK Parliament. Palpably so..it's the main reason I voted to leave. The MEPs that are elected (on a slight mandate) are paid extraordinary amounts of money to go to Brussels and work in blocks - super-transnational party organisations - and compromise/negotiate on a whole host of issues. So, if you voted for an MEP on a specific issue that MEP will have to scour through the EP and find like-minded groups in order to create enough of a 'block' and unfortunately for us these blocks are formed along ideological lines and not just single-issues. Thus, the issues that the MEP stood ill be heavily diluted as you can imagine that different MEPs who may have similar issues will look for different solutions that are tailor made to their country.

    Second problem, MEPs virtually have no power whatsoever. They can voice their discontent (sometimes); they can advise and debate but they have no power to propose legislation or repeal it. It the commission that has all the power. It is not for nothing that in 1993 Jeremy Corbyn had severe reservations regarding the Maastricht Treay going so far as to condemn it and the 'dictatorship from Brussels' is eroding Parliamentary sovereignty. There is an un-elected executive, un-elected legislature and proposals to further not just political power but introduce a 'soft' army. The EU is largely unaccountable, notoriously difficult to scrutinise and lacks democratic legitimacy. For all the failings of the UK Parliament, it is a shining beacon compared to the EU.

    There are ways to live together, co-operate, trade and unite as brothers and sisters without signing up to a contract or signing away sovereign rights.

    Quote
    The membership fee is not what it was bigged up to be when you count what the UK treasury and private sector receives from the EU weekly. It actually amounts to less than half of what it is said to be.


    Genuinely interested. Please explain as I understand it of the £18 billion we put in we get £5 billion back (which Thatcher had to fight for) and £4.5 billion in subsidies. The rest is reinvested in the EU and trickled down in unknown accounts that are seldom if ever revealed. The accounts of the EU have never been totally transparent.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #136 - June 25, 2016, 07:54 AM
    7.5T being the small post office lorries, argos and curry's home delivery lorries, removal trucks, breakdown trucks, etc.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #137 - June 25, 2016, 08:02 AM
    Me too, I'd be interested to know why, was it because they were worse for the environment, or the danger on road to other drivers?  or just a way of making more money? 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #138 - June 25, 2016, 08:07 AM
    Quote from: Jedi on June 25, 2016, 07:54 AM
    What wow Where are you getting your sources from?

    The EU is WAY less democratic than  the UK Parliament. Palpably so..it's the main reason I voted to leave. The MEPs that are elected (on a slight mandate) are paid extraordinary amounts of money to go to Brussels and work in blocks - super-transnational party organisations - and compromise/negotiate on a whole host of issues. So, if you voted for an MEP on a specific issue that MEP will have to scour through the EP and find like-minded groups in order to create enough of a 'block' and unfortunately for us these blocks are formed along ideological lines and not just single-issues. Thus, the issues that the MEP stood ill be heavily diluted as you can imagine that different MEPs who may have similar issues will look for different solutions that are tailor made to their country.

    Second problem, MEPs virtually have no power whatsoever. They can voice their discontent (sometimes); they can advise and debate but they have no power to propose legislation or repeal it. It the commission that has all the power. It is not for nothing that in 1993 Jeremy Corbyn had severe reservations regarding the Maastricht Treay going so far as to condemn it and the 'dictatorship from Brussels' is eroding Parliamentary sovereignty. There is an un-elected executive, un-elected legislature and proposals to further not just political power but introduce a 'soft' army. The EU is largely unaccountable, notoriously difficult to scrutinise and lacks democratic legitimacy. For all the failings of the UK Parliament, it is a shining beacon compared to the EU.

    There are ways to live together, co-operate, trade and unite as brothers and sisters without signing up to a contract or signing away sovereign rights.

    Genuinely interested. Please explain as I understand it of the £18 billion we put in we get £5 billion back (which Thatcher had to fight for) and £4.5 billion in subsidies. The rest is reinvested in the EU and trickled down in unknown accounts that are seldom if ever revealed. The accounts of the EU have never been totally transparent.


    See Jedi, yours is the only leave voice I hear that doesn't base his reason for voting leave, on the immigration issue.  My facebook/real life experiences of this conversation are only ever about immigrants and especially the risk of ISIS coming in with refugees.  Not one single person has been able to articulate a reason beyond that.

    Except maybe the idea that jobs, houses, and the NHS are all of the sudden going to magically improve/appear because they immigrants can't use them.

    No way are your reasons, the same things that motivated them.

    So yes, I am angry.  I am not angry over the leaving of Europe, I am angry over the atmosphere that motivated it. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #139 - June 25, 2016, 08:09 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 25, 2016, 07:28 AM
    And you know this how?

    Do you personally know the majority of the majority?

    Honestly, as much as Jedi may have educated reasons for understanding the leave camp, you are taking a big fucking leap of faith to assume the majority of the majority carry enough of an education/understanding, that there reasons were motivated by anything less than the racism stirred up by the leave campaign.  

    Perhaps it's a big leap of faith, and I know there are some really intensely racist people here. But there are always, sadly, racists in every country and from every background, but they're a minority. I've spoken to many people when I'm on site collecting or delivering something, and the people I talk to share my reasons for leaving. These are working people, in safety boots and a hi viz, operating machines, running production lines, driving forklifts, who I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong) are the ones being labelled racists. That label is unfair. Of course, some have views on immigration that I'd never agree with, but the vast majority I've spoken to are those who put in an honest day's work, yet feel they have no say in where this country is going.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #140 - June 25, 2016, 08:11 AM
    The EU was good for promoting environmental causes BUT we were part of the G7/8, the Kyoto Protocols and various UN committees that set targets to reduce carbon emissions and invest in alt energy.

    Again, I believe that we are better united - I just wish that the European project did not expand into the behemoth it became and self exploded. Clearly, Pres. Juanker's comments about Cameron getting all he ever could out of Britain in January was a blow for the remain campaign as we ere promised real, actual reforms.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #141 - June 25, 2016, 08:14 AM
    Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on June 25, 2016, 07:33 AM
    For an example, the UK vehemently opposed the prospect of paid holidays but had to implement it nevertheless due to an EU directive.

    Bad example to use for anyone who's self employed/freelance/running a business that's not established enough to pay themselves much of an income.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #142 - June 25, 2016, 08:36 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 25, 2016, 08:02 AM
    Me too, I'd be interested to know why, was it because they were worse for the environment, or the danger on road to other drivers?  or just a way of making more money? 

    Berbs I think it was to do with safety, in relation to hire vehicles. It's bad enough someone who's never driven anything bigger than a family saloon getting in a 23' van and not changing their driving style (eg remembering when overtaking that they need to leave more space before pulling back in).

    But this is what I mean by a one size fits all approach. It'd make so much more sense to regulate what vehicles can be hired out,or to have some form of training akin to the CBT for small motorcycles. This is a real issue. Most British truck drivers are in their 40s/50s even 60s, and won't be driving much longer. And a lot get out early because driving trucks is like being a robot now. A lot move to 3.5T vans because there's no tacho to worry about and you don't have to keep to 56 mph.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #143 - June 25, 2016, 08:43 AM
    It's also why you'll see trucks pushing their way through motorway roadworks, undertaking idiots who sit in the middle lane doing 49 mph. It may only save them 5 or 10 minutes on their 4 hour journey but that can be the difference between making a delivery, and having to stop 2 miles away because they're out of driving time and have the tacho recording everything they do.

    I'll stop now. Just giving a bit of insight into something I've come to know a bit about Smiley

    Edit: and that MPs and MEPs wouldn't have a clue about. Not realistically anyway.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #144 - June 25, 2016, 08:49 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 25, 2016, 08:07 AM
    See Jedi, yours is the only leave voice I hear that doesn't base his reason for voting leave, on the immigration issue.  My facebook/real life experiences of this conversation are only ever about immigrants and especially the risk of ISIS coming in with refugees.  Not one single person has been able to articulate a reason beyond that.

    Except maybe the idea that jobs, houses, and the NHS are all of the sudden going to magically improve/appear because they immigrants can't use them.

    No way are your reasons, the same things that motivated them.

    So yes, I am angry.  I am not angry over the leaving of Europe, I am angry over the atmosphere that motivated it. 


    I actually wrote something to this effect on my Face Book post. Not to say that it is directed at you at all.


    'Racists', 'morons' and 'ignorant f*****s' are some of the words that I have heard and read to describe people who, for a variety of reasons, have voted to leave. Not to mention some utter disregard and disrespect to our elders who are being 'blamed' for hurtling Britain towards its seemingly inevitable doom. We all live in a democracy. We all have the right to vote and express it in whatever way we wish. This is a historic referendum result with significant repercussions for us all. We may have lost an opportunity to further integrate into the EU but let's not lose our integrity or character. Let's not reduce ourselves to pettiness or become bitter about a result that did not go our way. To disrespect how someone voted is to avoid looking at the issues that affect some of the most (perhaps perceived) alienated, disenfranchised and 'under class' within our society who are, have been and will be for our short-term future affected by our membership of the EU. Let's not alienate them, ourselves, and entrench differences further by throwing mud, making generalizations or preparing for a post-apocalyptic Britain. We are all friends, we are family, we are British citizens, above all, we are brothers and sisters in humanity. I'm proud that the turnout was so high. I'm proud that so many of us are invested in our politics (though for some that may be a single-issue). Let's look out for one another and keep things in perspective. Now time to stock up on those Magic Stars I keep hearing the kids bang on about...
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #145 - June 25, 2016, 09:20 AM
    Quote from: Jedi on June 25, 2016, 08:49 AM
    I actually wrote something to this effect on my Face Book post. Not to say that it is directed at you at all.


    'Racists', 'morons' and 'ignorant f*****s' are some of the words that I have heard and read to describe people who, for a variety of reasons, have voted to leave. Not to mention some utter disregard and disrespect to our elders who are being 'blamed' for hurtling Britain towards its seemingly inevitable doom. We all live in a democracy. We all have the right to vote and express it in whatever way we wish. This is a historic referendum result with significant repercussions for us all. We may have lost an opportunity to further integrate into the EU but let's not lose our integrity or character. Let's not reduce ourselves to pettiness or become bitter about a result that did not go our way. To disrespect how someone voted is to avoid looking at the issues that affect some of the most (perhaps perceived) alienated, disenfranchised and 'under class' within our society who are, have been and will be for our short-term future affected by our membership of the EU. Let's not alienate them, ourselves, and entrench differences further by throwing mud, making generalizations or preparing for a post-apocalyptic Britain. We are all friends, we are family, we are British citizens, above all, we are brothers and sisters in humanity. I'm proud that the turnout was so high. I'm proud that so many of us are invested in our politics (though for some that may be a single-issue). Let's look out for one another and keep things in perspective. Now time to stock up on those Magic Stars I keep hearing the kids bang on about...


    Well, as I said, sadly the leave voters I know didn't have any reason other than immigration/xenophobia. 

    My family in yorkshire, all voted leave, and all did it to stop foreigners who have 'stolen Britain', and obviously to stop things like halal meat in schools.   Roll Eyes

    My friend's parents did it purely because they wanted to stop immigration, and reduce the amount of Muslims in their area.

    Other people I have met over the years, again, all swayed by the immigration vote.

    It was hard for me to wake up on 'independence day' and see anything other than a reaction to the hoardes of job stealing cockroaches coming in from abroad.

    I also don't need a reminder that this is a democracy.  (well, in as much as first past the post can be)  I didn't join the protests, and I haven't signed the petition.  It's done now, the people have spoken...very close call, but it is the way it is. 

    But if your reasons for voting leave were more complex than just stopping foreign people stealing stuff they aren't actually stealing, then this is actually my attitude:

    Attached image is missing * 13494857_10153604519967321_3797956212561977226_n.jpg (65.41 KB, 640x640 - viewed 213 times.)
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #146 - June 25, 2016, 09:22 AM
    To add, I don't think you were trying to remind me personally that this is a democracy, so that sentence isn't directed at you, more that I am explaining I do respect that my side were outvoted.  Grin
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #147 - June 25, 2016, 09:38 AM
     Aaaaaaw

    far away hug

    The very stupid are just as entitled to vote as the everyday stupid. Even though, this hallal business is not an EU concern. God! I was in bed with the enemy??
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #148 - June 25, 2016, 12:35 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on June 25, 2016, 07:54 AM
    What wow Where are you getting your sources from?

    The EU is WAY less democratic than  the UK Parliament. Palpably so..it's the main reason I voted to leave. The MEPs that are elected (on a slight mandate) are paid extraordinary amounts of money to go to Brussels and work in blocks - super-transnational party organisations - and compromise/negotiate on a whole host of issues. So, if you voted for an MEP on a specific issue that MEP will have to scour through the EP and find like-minded groups in order to create enough of a 'block' and unfortunately for us these blocks are formed along ideological lines and not just single-issues. Thus, the issues that the MEP stood ill be heavily diluted as you can imagine that different MEPs who may have similar issues will look for different solutions that are tailor made to their country.

    Second problem, MEPs virtually have no power whatsoever. They can voice their discontent (sometimes); they can advise and debate but they have no power to propose legislation or repeal it. It the commission that has all the power. It is not for nothing that in 1993 Jeremy Corbyn had severe reservations regarding the Maastricht Treay going so far as to condemn it and the 'dictatorship from Brussels' is eroding Parliamentary sovereignty. There is an un-elected executive, un-elected legislature and proposals to further not just political power but introduce a 'soft' army. The EU is largely unaccountable, notoriously difficult to scrutinise and lacks democratic legitimacy. For all the failings of the UK Parliament, it is a shining beacon compared to the EU.

    There are ways to live together, co-operate, trade and unite as brothers and sisters without signing up to a contract or signing away sovereign rights.

    Genuinely interested. Please explain as I understand it of the £18 billion we put in we get £5 billion back (which Thatcher had to fight for) and £4.5 billion in subsidies. The rest is reinvested in the EU and trickled down in unknown accounts that are seldom if ever revealed. The accounts of the EU have never been totally transparent.


    Not exactly; the European Commission does draft laws and monitor them, much like our unelected policy makers. That being said it does not pass laws, it therefore does not have complete power with regards to lawmaking. The Council of Ministers and the European Parliament has to agree by majority before any bill is passed.

    Moreover around 13% of our Acts and Statutes have been influenced by EU law; the institution is far from an all-encompassing bureaucracy that prevents countries from primarily deciding for themselves how they are to be run.  Besides, out of that 13%, the UK was on the side of the majority vote 87% of the time.

    If your local MP represents a party which has policies and values that you oppose, you are every bit as powerless  at influencing an Act of Parliament as you usually are at influencing an EU legislation. For an example: the Conservative Party only needs a majority of seats in Parliament in order to be virtually unstoppable. Other the general elections and referendum's such as the recent "Brexit" one, the common folk usually do not have a say in the running of this country.

    There are but with the anti-immigration rhetoric spreading throughout the country, do you think the public wants to "live together" and be brothers and sisters? To me the right to live and work in any EU member state and be given the same privileges and  opportunities that citizens of that state enjoyed is invaluable.

    I do understand where you'r coming from; like I said the EU was by no means perfect, but I strongly believe that it was a good thing that just required some reformations from within.

     
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #149 - June 25, 2016, 12:38 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 25, 2016, 08:07 AM
    See Jedi, yours is the only leave voice I hear that doesn't base his reason for voting leave, on the immigration issue.  My facebook/real life experiences of this conversation are only ever about immigrants and especially the risk of ISIS coming in with refugees.  Not one single person has been able to articulate a reason beyond that.

    Except maybe the idea that jobs, houses, and the NHS are all of the sudden going to magically improve/appear because they immigrants can't use them.

    No way are your reasons, the same things that motivated them.

    So yes, I am angry.  I am not angry over the leaving of Europe, I am angry over the atmosphere that motivated it. 


    Very true; almost everyone else who I've spoken to who was voting Leave cited immigration as the sole or primary reason why. There are certainly people who had better reasons for wanting to end our relationship with Europe but I wouldn't be at all surprised if immigration was the reason in the majority of cases.
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