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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Do you think Britain should leave the EU?  (Voting closed: March 18, 2016, 08:18 PM)
  • Yes - 9 (42.9%)
  • No - 12 (57.1%)
  • Undecided - 0 (0%)
  • Total Voters: 21

 Topic: Brexit - yes or no?

 (Read 39673 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 ... 13 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #60 - April 24, 2016, 08:08 PM

    It is about too much reference being made to immigration in the debate (to which Cheetah has validly drawn our attention in Feb) and it being bound up with the whole thing. That is something which would likely concern those low-skilled Europeans whom the contingency of people you mentioned above are likely to dislike and triumphantly look down on.

    If so, British politicians of all hues properly know that fully turning the British welfare system into a contributory system would instantaneously solve the problem with soi-disant EU welfare tourism.

    Instead of opting for this legal, fundamental and permanent solution to such a (real to some but perceived to others) problem, which would certainly be commenting a political suicide at home, Britain is effectively seeking welfare discrimination against EU citizens in the same way it succeeded, like the rest of EU countries, in exercising discrimination of this sort against non-EU citizens for the mere foreignness of these other nationals.

    It would solve one problem, but open up a bigger can of worms - namely, the question of what and whom British social welfare provision is for. In a contributory system, the jobless, the young and the immigrant will be entitled to little in the way of financial benefits, because they will not have been able to contribute. Great, in isolation; however, in a context where successive governments are in the business of cutting down not just direct welfare payments but driving those other parts of the welfare state that deal with benefits in kind into private hands - the NHS, schools, social housing, to name three - it becomes far easier to blame the jobless, the young and the immigrant for the obvious shortcomings of systems that have been deliberately set up to be "saved" by the private sector. To that extent, the welfare discrimination to which you refer is - in my not particularly original opinion - something of a sideshow, to be exploited for all it's worth.

    Britain knows it cannot be part of the EU and at the same time discriminate against EU citizens on things like universal welfare, but Britain seeks and will always seek preferential treatment (i.e. discrimination by another name) and try to maintain what the current government calls ‘a special status’ within this union of the otherwise equal. This is because of something that strikes me as obvious but it doesn’t seem politically tactful to make it explicit, and it is often hard to articulate without drawing charges of supremacy (or what David Miliband refers to in a recent Guardian article as “acting as though the world owes us a break”).

    This something is that the European Union is not made up of equal states in many, many respects and this basic negative statement is objectively true, regardless of the particular political leaning of its maker.

    To draw an analogy, it is ridiculous to suppose that America’s membership in the United Nations should compare to that of my country of origin, Chad, because they both subscribe to the same political entity. No. There’s more to it than that. Equally ridiculous is to suppose that Britain’s standing in the EU — its military power, its language, its technological advancements, its economy, currency and purchasing power, its political clout etc etc etc — should compare to that of, say, Romania, Portugal, Finland or Lithuania. The EU might be an equalised union but it is decidedly not one of equivalence. This might be the keenly felt, rarely articulated ratiocination behind it all.

    Thus, if it’s at all an issue, then it is Britain’s misfortune – as far as its annual EU budgetary contribution is concerned – to have the second biggest GDP in the union as well as being the fastest growing economy. Britain cannot agree to a contributory percentage and then get worked up about paying more into the EU budget as a result of it being more economically prosperous than most members or it being more than what it gets back in rebates.

    Better comparator nations for Britain would be France and Germany - although given their history as the traditional centre of the EU, this means that Britain has, historically, often been an outsider in one form or another (from its initial scepticism about the ECSC, de Gaulle wanting Britain kept out of the Common Market, and so on..). I don't know enough about French and German eurosceptic trends to comment on any differences there.

    The other relevant issue pertaining to EU immigration is of course that of Britain having higher wages in comparison to some EU countries, with the recent Living Wage, making it more attractive for workers from these countries to exercise their treaty right to come to work and live in Britain.

    So for Britain when it comes to EU immigration, it is either to discriminate and seek preferential treatment without facing any resistance from the EU and without changing the nature of its own welfare system OR making it unattractive for low-skilled EU workers to come and work in it by virtue of giving them lower wages without having that impact on its own British people. In your opinion, is there a way to square this circle?

    I don't know that there is a satisfactory one, but I suspect that going for lower-hanging fruit with this move, among others, is part of a policy of trying to achieve the next best thing - that is to say, capping the numbers of low-paid immigrants that they can discriminate against without getting in trouble with the EU.

    For the benefit of non-UK types: the National Living Wage - as opposed to the Living Wage - is £7.20 an hour if you're 25 and older. If one is on the lower-earning end of the job market, the zero-hours contract - by which there is no fixed number of working hours, and therefore no security of monthly earnings - is a reality; I don't see that an increased hourly rate is necessarily that much of an improvement.

    "Democracy came into the Western World to the tune of sweet, soft music. There was, at the start, no harsh bawling from below; there was only a dulcet twittering from above. Democratic man thus began as an ideal being, full of ineffable virtues and romantic wrongs – in brief, as Rousseau’s noble savage in smock and jerkin, brought out of the tropical wilds to shame the lords and masters of the civilised lands. The fact continues to have important consequences to this day. It remains impossible, as it was in the eighteenth century, to separate the democratic idea from the theory that there is a mystical merit, an esoteric and ineradicable rectitude, in the man at the bottom of the scale — that inferiority, by some strange magic, becomes a sort of superiority — nay, the superiority of superiorities. Everywhere on earth, save where in the enlightenment of the modern age is confessedly in transient eclipse, the movement is toward the completer and more enamoured enfranchisement of the lower orders. Down there, one hears, lies a deep, illimitable reservoir of righteousness and wisdom, unpolluted by the corruption of privilege. What baffles statesmen is to be solved by the people, instantly and by a sort of seraphic intuition. Their yearnings are pure; they alone are capable of a perfect patriotism; in them is the only hope of peace and happiness on this lugubrious ball. The cure for the evils of democracy is more democracy!"


    To return to Mark Ames for a moment, it might seem that Mencken's lesson has been understood and duly weaponised.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #61 - April 24, 2016, 08:40 PM

    If you're quoting the likes of Mencken after a night out, it obviously wasn't a good one.  Did you not see a good example of your fellow Man?   piggy


    No it really wasn’t. Got dragged to it by a mate who couldn’t scientifically drown his sorrows away from me. Though he paid for everything, including the cab fare home, I have a sneaking suspicion that we had gone Dutch. I haven't returned his calls all day long. (re ‘scientifically’, wouldn’t a psephologist say that the question in your poll is leading and leading towards a yes answer?)

    But on a serious long note, this immigration thing still looms so large in the ongoing debate. I have misgivings about having a referendum at all and that we are having one because David Cameron is trying to keep his party from imploding; when he was in opposition in 2009, Cameron did a U-turn on his cast-iron guarantee to holding a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty if he became a Prime Minister (that is, if the treaty was in the process of ratification when he became PM). This treaty created the post of a president and of a foreign minister of the European Union. It’s hard to not see this as the EU officially turning into a looser superstate.

    Came 2010, David Cameron was in No.10 Downing Street but found himself sharing power with an ideologically pro-EU party so that the question of an EU referendum was shelved and kicked into the long grass. He did make some reassuring noises about having a referendum should there be any significant change, such as the one just mentioned, to the nature of the EU as well as there being any risk of further enlargement of the union (i.e. immigration). That was that, or so it would have seemed. But the morphine wore off and the poltergeist of referendum was now criminally vivacious, again, because of 2013 English local electoral haemorrhages and victories largely made elsewhere by UKIP. This is not to say that when it came to Europe, Cameron did not have his own swivel-eyed loons.

    But further back in time, 2004 in particular, there was the Labour Party in power and it grossly underestimated the numbers of EU citizens, from the so-called A10 countries, who would immediately exercise their treaty right to come to Britain. They arrived in their hundreds of thousands because the Labour Government do not avail itself of the transitional restrictions on freedom of movement that the other prosperous European countries (Germany, Austria, France, Finland, Denmark, the Netherlands etc) had put in place for fear of mass migration.

    However, the transitional restrictions wisely placed by the other countries have practically created a situation where these new EU citizens could exercise their untrammelled freedom of movement by coming to Britain to work and live. (There were media reports that for a long period of time there were 17000 Polish people arriving each day in coaches at St Pancras International. Recently, “The Romanians Are Coming!” have been an apt xenophobic cry of alarm to start off the year 2014, like Channel 4 did, and even the usually balanced BBC was counting down the days to this expected immigration flood which, this time round, simply failed to materialise.) If this was a blunder, it was certainly made by the Labour government. Indeed, we could be excused to be cynical and question the belated sincerity and truthfulness of the New Labour figures, who have recently started publically admitting it was a mistake not to put in place the needed transitional restrictions. This is because some respectable critics on the Right have long been arguing that mass migration was intentional and wasn't a mistake. It was a hard-nosed political strategy for Labour to the end of socially engineering Britain.

    (We can talk about that until the cows come home. We can also talk about a similar bottleneck situation vis-a-vis recent mass migration into Europe that was created by Germany unilaterally opening its doors to the tune of hundreds of thousands of people in 2015. The on route southern EU countries were waving the migrants through just like the absence of transitional restrictions did to Britain — I’m, of course, leaving out from this rather simplified analysis the undoubted impact of the recent global economic downturn on other new EU citizens coming to Britain. The cynics say that Germany has an aging population and its workforce needed replenishment of the sort which the Syrian refugees, fortuitously, have come to fit. Those educated probably middle class people who were resourceful enough to make it to Germany would likely to be employment-ready within two to three years of proper orientation as well as linguistic training. The humanitarian side to the German initiative to generously take in refugees is a given but, like any other mass acceptance of immigrants, it cannot be the only motivation that persuasively excludes demographic planning and reconstruction. No, it cannot even for a nation that is still in the grips of collective expiation like Germany.)

    Going further, further back in time, could it really be that the people who avoided defeat in WW II — largely because of the reluctant and belated entrance of the US into the fight — have been told that they were the liberators of Europe? Their wartime leader might have been an architect of European trade and political unity (so much so that Churchill insisted on including Germany in the nascent project, a country without which, he opined, there couldn’t be a Europe) but that did not change, as far as these victors were concerned, the realities and the outcomes of the recent war.

    We won the war, it seems to these people, because we ‘was’ good. If pressed, we would rather hold dearly to our principle of ‘first among equals’ instead of bothering too much about what would that practically mean to those whose countries were occupied by Germany then the Soviet (sic) less than a century ago. We’ve earned our special status alright! And left alone, we wouldn’t in our reserved politeness make a song and dance about it, my dear Sir, would we now?

    Back to the future: May 2015, David Cameron unexpectedly won a small majority in the Commons that enabled him to form a Tory government and was immediately forced to deliver on his now long due EU referendum promise.

    The EU immigration thing has up to this point been advanced by Ukippers shouting “500 million people can potentially come to work and live in Britain”. Now there was Germany’s decision to take in nearly a million people to heat up the immigration debate in Britain. Further, there are currently about three million Syrians in Turkey waiting to come to Europe; immigrants fleeing war and ISIS that Turkey is reported to have been utilising to hasten two strategic things for itself a) getting more financial support, and b) becoming a member of the EU. Indeed, some people would argue that Turkey was almost waving through these and other immigrants going to Europe on purpose to achieve its two strategic goals (in the same manner Putin is said to have been intensifying his bombing campaign — is it over now?  — to inundate and overwhelm the EU with immigrants so that the EU plays a more constructive role about lifting the Crimea related international sanctions). Therefore, Turkey’s possible near-future accession to the EU is of moment to the EU immigration debate in Britain because Turkey’s population is 74 million which is larger than Britain’s.

    Meanwhile if David Cameron was honest about his ability and serious about renegotiating Britain’s relationship with in the EU in Feb 2016, he could have offered an immediate referendum on the facts as they currently are in order to secure an easy Brexit. That done, he could then have gone to Brussels with democratic mandate from the word GO. If your spouse started talking to you through solicitors, then mate, they are serious about ending your marriage to them.

    Having rejected the EU as it presently is in a non-binding referendum, Cameron's hand would be strengthened in the renegotiation to the point where if the EU is going to make Britain a deal then that is the only compelling way forward. (Nigel Farage, of all the foreigners, was in The Netherlands a few weeks ago, campaigning for the Dutch to reject the EU-Ukraine Partnership Deal. Not sure Farage had any influence over the Dutch people but they did vote to reject the deal for reasons which would be inappropriate to guess here. Farage thought that this Dutch referendum could have a knock-on effect in the same way the French and Dutch referenda in 2005, which resulted in rejecting the EU Constitution, had had and arguably eventuated in the Irish indefinitely postponing theirs. The Constitution was repackaged thereafter and it's been a spectacular sovereignty mission creep ever since.)

    But Cameron did not do that and did not go into the negotiation from a position of strength. Cameron, as recently as four months ago, kept posturing and talking about treaty change and EU reforms to the effect of over promising what could realistically be achieved in the renegotiation.

    In the leaflet the UK government sent ten days ago, there was no single reference to reducing EU immigration. Rather, the government suggests on its second page that one of the five points through which the UK has secured a special status in the EU is “there will be tough new restrictions on access to our welfare system for new EU migrants”. The other relevant point is “we will keep our own border controls” which of course was not secured through the renegotiation process but was made explicit in it, this in itself has got nothing to do reducing EU immigration, which what the man and the woman on the street seem to (unrealistically) want when they talk about "the services are stretched, the NHS can't cope, the country's full".

    I have focused on the political events pertaining to the EU immigration into Britain as though those political events could be isolated from their socio-economic dimensions. That is not reflective of the whole picture nor was it my intention when I began typing this post to widen its scope beyond politics (the post is from memory and isn’t fully fact checked). But based on our historical perception of Europe, it is easy to understand the difficulty the Home Secretary, Theresa May MP, was facing, on the Andrew Marr Show this morning, when she tried to say the unpalatable: that we in Britain cannot reduce our ties to the European Union to a trading partnership which at the one and same time excludes the free movement of labour. (Simples; kiss your teeth)

    Soyons logiques! The Home Secretary was arguing for the triumph of logic over rhetoric. Get over yourselves, people. Get over this other Eden, demi-paradise, This fortress built by Nature for herself, Against infection and the hand of war, This happy breed of men, this little world, This precious stone set in the silver sea Which serves it in the office of a wall, Or as a moat defensive to a house, Against the envy of less happier lands, This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

    ----------------------------
    Updated as usual.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #62 - April 24, 2016, 08:41 PM

    ^
    ^
    This is me thinking out loud on the progression of the debate thus far in relation to one aspect. So feel free to correct and give feedback, guys xx
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #63 - May 16, 2016, 11:13 AM

    A factchecking charity:

    https://fullfact.org/
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #64 - May 23, 2016, 11:42 PM

    I have thought long and hard about this, because I was tempted both ways.
    For leave:
    -   Sovereignty, a strong argument that the UK signed up for a common market, not a federal European state by stealth. The federal project  is running into the sand anyway. Other nations are fed up with it, and the UK is exempt from the worst two policies, the Euro and Schengen. In any case there is no such thing as absolute sovereignty these days, the UK is enmeshed in a whole host of international organisations such as NATO, WTO, OECD etc. as well as the EU. The 19C “splendid isolation” is long gone, and that did not work anyway (er, 1914 and 1939?)

    -   Immigration from EU. Immigrants don’t steal our jobs (lump of labour fallacy: there aren’t a fixed number of jobs) but it does put pressure on the housing market. The problem though is that we are not building enough houses, which is quite another issue, and letting foreigners buy them for speculation, problems within UK control. In any case, any post Brexit agreement with the EU will almost certainly at their insistence include some freedom of movement, that is what Switzerland and Norway had to agree to. There is no way that Turkey will be allowed to join the EU, there are plenty of east and central European countries that will block it.

    So neither of these main arguments stack up, IMHO.
    For remain:
    -   One cannot  estimate how much (Osborne’s numbers are plucked from the air) but I am convinced that there will be an economic cost that exceeds our net budget contribution to the EU, through a weaker pound, higher interest rates, and above all a fall in inward investment. We will also suffer because there are more barriers to trade outside the EU in services, which we are strong in, than for goods.
    -   We will have to follow EU standards anyway (major export market) just have no say in formulating them.
    -   Britain has far more clout as one of the big four in the world’s largest trading bloc than on its own.
    -   The whole Scots thing will reignite if they vote to remain and the UK overall votes to leave. “Little England” indeed.

    I now think that the arguments are overwhelmingly for remain.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #65 - June 15, 2016, 11:59 AM

    Is anyone watching this flotilla stand off on the Thames?   dance  Most hilarious thing I've seen in ages, and I'm not sure which one I want to fall into the water more, Nigel Farage or Bob Geldof. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #66 - June 15, 2016, 01:24 PM

    Both flotillas are now being chased by a boat from C4's The Last Leg.   Cheesy   I seriously hope they televise this, its funnier than Father Ted.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #67 - June 15, 2016, 04:45 PM

    Well, I dare say enough people are fed up of the circus already, so it's about time for some old-school farce.

    I have an unsettling feeling about the outcome of all this.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #68 - June 15, 2016, 05:55 PM

    I hope we leave the corruptible, I democratic and far too expensive EU.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #69 - June 15, 2016, 07:34 PM

    I'm beginning to think you will.  The last week or so seems to have been a disaster for the IN campaign.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #70 - June 15, 2016, 07:58 PM

    This was all foretold in the Quran in chapter number 56 verses 67-23.

    In the original pure Arabic of course.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #71 - June 15, 2016, 08:06 PM

    I have an unsettling feeling about the outcome of all this.


    As do I. Then again, I just find the English unsettling most of the time.  Tongue

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #72 - June 15, 2016, 08:56 PM

    They can be a bit unsettling at times....



     Tongue

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #73 - June 16, 2016, 04:22 PM

    In news that may or may not be related.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #74 - June 16, 2016, 04:40 PM



    When somebody murders an MP (pro EU) while screaming "Britain first", it is hard not to think that it is related.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #75 - June 16, 2016, 05:40 PM

    There's apparently been some question about whether the killer did scream "Britain first", as BBC seem to have scrubbed mention of same in their reporting (I think they mentioned it early on).
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #76 - June 16, 2016, 06:25 PM

    Irrelevant - arguments matter and not the actions or ravings of some lunatic.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #77 - June 16, 2016, 08:04 PM

    Arguments matter.


  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #78 - June 18, 2016, 08:15 AM

    True - unrestricted movement of EU citizens is a problem - more so with failing EU states and the lure of benefit packages.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #79 - June 23, 2016, 12:50 PM

    So , Referendum day is here ...   and I still don't know how to vote.
      I ALWAYS vote. As a working class woman (everyone knows about the Suffragettes but people forget that at the time of their victory only property owners could vote) lucky enough to be born in a country where I can vote , without having to walk for days and/or dodge people who would shoot me for exercising my democratic rights , I feel a deep moral obligation to vote.
     I'm also of the school of thought that if you don't bother to vote you've got no right to complain about the government.
          The more I listen to people who're passionate about this the more I want them all just to go away.
    On the one side you've got Farage , Galloway and a host of little englanders.
    On the other Cameron , big business and Eddie Izzard's histrionics. and then there's Obama's clumsy , arrogant and insulting intervention . What , you might not let us join TIPPS ? Good.
          I like the idea of being engaged with Europe , being able to hop over the channel without needing visas and having the European health Insurance scheme , being able to do business with the rest of the continent etc
        On the other hand , sovereignity is important. I think the UK should retain the right to make it's own laws. But for the past 30+ years that power has been in the hands of governments which have destroyed much that was good about Britain , and the EU has helped set some limits on that.
     On the other hand , the EU has been disastrous for our agriculture and fishing industries.
     And the expensive beaurocracy is a real issue.
        A Brexit vote will almost certainly trigger another referendum on Scottish independence.
    An independent Scotland would almost certainly apply for admittance to the EU. - my head hurts.
       Immigration is obviously a big factor. i don't want to get into a big debate on that on this thread but it is a massive issue that is going to effect our way of life .As the writer Lionel Schriver said recently , " the refugee crisis is not a crisis at all , it's the new normal".
      I think the 'open the borders' people are well meaning but naive. We should be taking more refugees , but it needs to be controlled. The EU would seem like a good mechanism for that but it's not doing that well so far.
      I think a lot of people are tempted to vote Leave so that UK would have more control over immigration. But if we leave , what's to stop the French deciding the situation at Calais is not their problem ,and allowing people to storm lorries , the tunnel , jump into the sea on cardboard boxes etc. ?
       Anyone ?
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #80 - June 23, 2016, 03:30 PM

    Myself and my family voted Brexit today
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #81 - June 23, 2016, 06:25 PM

    I hope you all remember to go vote today, however you vote.   yes

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #82 - June 24, 2016, 04:23 AM

    Brexit - yes or no?

    Yes  - 9 (42.9%)
    No  - 12 (57.1%)

    It seems 9 votes are winning over 11 votes

    EU referendum: BBC forecasts UK vote to leave
     

    'Leave' scents victory in Britain's EU vote, pound crashes

    well then after referendum I wish 1 Pakistan rupee = 140 pounds ..lol..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #83 - June 24, 2016, 04:30 AM

    Madness. What have you done?
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #84 - June 24, 2016, 04:46 AM

    Those of you saying that Trump can’t possibly win come November, look at the results here today and shudder…
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #85 - June 24, 2016, 05:40 AM

    Yup.

    This is going to be interesting in the "interesting" way.

    - paying for irresponsible economics of others
    - open borders
    - micromanagement from Brussels
    - letting in Eastern European countries with poor economy, high crime rates and serious democratic problems
    - strong voices saying that an islamistic dictatorship should be let in too

    I'm not surprised.


    (Wasn't there a popcorn munching smiley somewhere?)

  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #86 - June 24, 2016, 06:37 AM

    Wow, what a result! I voted out, as did my wife, Tory voting parents, my sister and her fiance. My brother and his girlfriend voted remain. The polar opposites of England/Wales and Scotland/NI are interesting though.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #87 - June 24, 2016, 07:21 AM

    Those of you saying that Trump can’t possibly win come November, look at the results here today and shudder…


    I know right?  We have Cameron thanks to easily manipulated voters, and now we've been pulled from the EU, by the same sort of easily manipulated voters.

    I voted remain yesterday.  But honestly, I'm in a country full of secret racists and open racists, so I shouldn't be surprised at all.

    Even with the fact that the leave campaigns promises are already being revealed as 'mistakes' today...you know, because immigration isn't going to stop, and the NHS isn't going to get flooded with money (  Cheesy how stupid you must be to have believed that in the first place anyway ), it won't deter the leave supporters.

    You know why, because they have their Britain back.  They hankered for the good old days of empire, and nationalism, and hated having to be part of something that valued foreign voices. 

    Well they can enjoy it.  Nothing that makes me sicker than national pride.  You did fuck all for your country, you have fuck all to be proud of.

    4 years, finish my studies, move the fuck out of here. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #88 - June 24, 2016, 07:34 AM

    It's oddly fitting that a campaign that actively repudated experts might well end up precipitating the biggest brain drain that Britain will have experienced after the second World War.

    David Cameron is now going. I expect what's coming will probably be worse, if anything.

    What a fucker of a morning.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #89 - June 24, 2016, 07:40 AM

    Cameron just announced he will step down in October , so that's one definite positive.
     I'm surprised by the result , I think this is as much about people being fed up of the political classes and wanting to shake things up a bit.
     BBC news have got some Tory woman wittering on about  "an ugly mood" being unleashed in the country and the vote being swayed by "white working class men who've never seen a migrant" and don't want to listen to "liberal conservatives like me".  I think it's probably that kind of patronising attitude that's influenced a lot of people. I voted remain but I can see why people want change
       I thought the turnout - 72% - would have been higher.
    We've apparently got two years now for negotiations etc -  wouldn't surprise me if we end up having another referendum before then
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